Author Topic: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017  (Read 7518 times)

megajoulesexpenditure

Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« on: 16 April, 2017, 10:40:35 am »
Well done to all the Arrow teams. Hopefully all now safely back home and raiding the larder.

Just a reminder if you can return cards to me for validation as soon as you have collected your thoughts enough.

Also if any teams that didn't start/finish could just let me know so that I know whose cards I'm waiting for in the coming days.

Lastly I am hoping to make the Arrow events and entry system better so would welcome any thoughts on things that could be improved.

Plus don't forget there's another chance to ride an Arrow or a solo dart in June(hopefully in the warm sunshine by then)

Many thanks.

Lucy. :thumbsup:

Bianchi Boy

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Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #1 on: 16 April, 2017, 11:32:49 am »
The main thing about the Arrow is the odd rules. These are manual and probably all the better for it. Any move into technology here is going to be hard to implement. We could look at streamlining the entry, but there is route and distance validation plus the all important ACP validation for the awards people love.

If it was up to me I would have a narrow start and finish time say 7am to 11am and then have a defined finish point. Route validation should be offered for GPX only and if that is the selected offering a free route should be possible between the starting and finishing location, risk is accepted by the participants so GPX failure means no validation for the individual or team if there are only two matching gpx tracks.

I believe that an offering of the type above would attract more riders and expand the base for Audax as people who find the admin stuff just a fiddle would be more likely to enter.

That said the above requires some quite sophisticated technology.

BB
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

Wycombewheeler

  • PBP-2019 LEL-2022
Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #2 on: 16 April, 2017, 11:43:03 am »
with my experience of GPS no way would I trust the gps of all team members for my accreditation.

Eddington  127miles, 170km

Bianchi Boy

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Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #3 on: 16 April, 2017, 11:47:12 am »
with my experience of GPS no way would I trust the gps of all team members for my accreditation.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. There are two groups here -

Insiders - People who are in the world of Audax and want the accreditation and count points to get prizes

Outsiders - People who love to ride and do not care about Audax points or awards but want a challenge.

The scheme that I envisage would allow outsiders to become motivated and set a challenging distance that they could alter as the wind blows. They might not be riding a proper 'Audax' but would be up for a challenge  :thumbsup:
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #4 on: 16 April, 2017, 01:27:46 pm »
Leave it as it is.

frankly frankie

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Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #5 on: 16 April, 2017, 01:32:39 pm »
Route validation should be offered for GPX only and if that is the selected offering a free route should be possible between the starting and finishing location,

Arrow riders are supposed to stick together so the tracklogs would need to match** in the time dimension as well as spatially.  Is there anything that can check that easily?

** whilst at the same time not matching, if you see what I mean.  You don't want one rider with 4 GPSs on his handlebars while the rest of the team spend the day shopping at B&Q.

And by the way, huge congrats to Lucy for raising the profile of this event so successfully.   :thumbsup:
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

mattc

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Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #6 on: 16 April, 2017, 01:57:09 pm »
Lucy:
What %age of teams went for a Friday morning start, 8-10am ish?

[from skim-reading the threads, it seems to be almost everyone - whereas in previous years I got the feeling there were always a small minority of awkward sods squads outliers ]
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

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Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #7 on: 16 April, 2017, 09:34:25 pm »
Route validation should be offered for GPX only and if that is the selected offering a free route should be possible between the starting and finishing location,

Arrow riders are supposed to stick together so the tracklogs would need to match** in the time dimension as well as spatially.  Is there anything that can check that easily?

** whilst at the same time not matching, if you see what I mean.  You don't want one rider with 4 GPSs on his handlebars while the rest of the team spend the day shopping at B&Q.

And by the way, huge congrats to Lucy for raising the profile of this event so successfully.   :thumbsup:

I've seen some software that a colleague showed me that allows you to compare GPS tracks, I think where they were comparing how they went with a mate on the same ride - a quick google search came up with this
 
http://www.mygpsfiles.com/en/

However, am I right in thinking that GPS devices do have an element of drift (and not just in the vertical plane) and therefore your gentleman with 4 devices on one set of handlebars might not have a different profile from a group riding together.  But then that's no different from sending one guy out to an outlying control and getting them to buy four different things on four separate receipts at the outlying control whilst the other cut off a large corner  :facepalm:

The other thing that would have to be factored into a GPX only event would be safety.  There has always been a prize for the greatest distance covered in an Arrow.  The need to stop and get proof of passage at least breaks up the journey, and gives riders the opportunity to eat and take short rests.  On a purely 'automated' route there would be more of a temptation for a team to turn it into a 24 hour time trial except without the safety features of such events (marshals and most riders with helpers).

On the other hand, with GPX you could introduce more variety by introducing a separate prize for the most metres climbed (an Easter AAArrow?) to relieve the pressure on the Gainsborough Jet garage and Goole Services?  Anyone who worked Rosedale Chimney into an Arrow would get my respect  :thumbsup:
Eddington Numbers 130 (imperial), 182 (metric) 571 (furlongs)  114 (nautical miles)

arabella

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Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #8 on: 16 April, 2017, 10:03:20 pm »
pretty much OK I think :-) 
I must be getting older as a lot of the riders at the postern gate looked a lot younger than I felt.  I agree less of a buzz but that's to do with us being spread about more* and nothing to do with the organisation!
I don't do gps so disagree with mandating it, plus it could be another barrier to 'other' entries (though it's possible that by now, and as with smart phones, I am the only person who doesn't have one.

Was pleased to see there is a cloth badge once more.  Have now ordered one for myself and the team mascot aka my little dear (chuffed mum goes off in raptures yet again).

I'll confess to not necessarily fully understanding the 22 hour rule - I've generally used the same penultimate control, which is the one that was used on the arrow I did organised by not-me.  I translated it thusly: "'22 hour rule':
because this is a 24 hour ride we can't have you finishing earlier.  So you need to get receipts that show you to have ridden at least 25km during the last 2 hours of the ride.  You do this by getting a receipt as soon as you can after you have been riding for 22 hours, from somewhere at least 25km from where you finish your ride at around the full 24 hours."
(did it start off as 5kph flex around "last 2 hours must be ridden at the 15kph minimum speed so pick your controls so show this"?)

*this is probably a good thing as it kept our overall profile lower, though at the cost of some of the previous post-ride buzz. 
Any fool can admire a mountain.  It takes real discernment to appreciate the fens.

vorsprung

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Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #9 on: 16 April, 2017, 10:08:05 pm »
I must be getting older as a lot of the riders at the postern gate looked a lot younger than I felt.

No, it's ok I felt older than usual at the finish too  ;D

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #10 on: 16 April, 2017, 10:11:38 pm »
The 22h control is there to distinguish the arrow as a 24 hour event, and not a 400k event.

It's to prevent you from knocking out 400k in 18 hours and then checking into a Travelodge for 6 hours sleep.

It's an attempt to make you actually ride all through the night.
So you need to be riding up to the 22nd hour, and then ride at least a modest distance to the end of the 24th hour.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #11 on: 16 April, 2017, 10:14:54 pm »
You do not need to ride to the end of the 24th hour. You need to ride at least 25km after getting your 22 hour control, which may take less than an hour.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #12 on: 16 April, 2017, 10:28:51 pm »
It's a fairly small technical detail, I agree.
But I quote from the Roolz:

5. CONTROLS Each team member shall obtain proof of passage at the starting point and each designated control in the form of a stamp, ATM or till receipt. If proof of passage is not available a photo of the whole team clearly identifying the place (e.g. in front of a road sign) may be substituted.  During the 22nd hour and at the end of the 24th hour the exact time and location of the team must be noted in the brevet card and proof of passage obtained.  The team must ride until the end of the 24th hour. If proof of passage is not available at that point they must continue riding to the next available place where it may be obtained. This does not have to be York, it can be on the way to York.  A minimum of 25km must be ridden between the 22nd hour control point and the finish.
 

My Bold.

I don't believe this phrase is optional and the riders must only comply with the other rules.



LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #13 on: 16 April, 2017, 10:30:39 pm »
Fuck that.

If the French don't do it, neither do I. They record where they are in the 24th hour, often they are at the designated finish before 24 hours are up. The problem is the intent versus the wording. They don't want folk to finish their ride in 15-18 hours, get a full night's sleep and arrive at the finish fresh as a daisy.

After riding a couple of Fleche Velocio in France, perhaps 10 Fleche Oppy in Oz and 6 or so Easter/Summer Arrows here, along with organising several Fleche Oppys, I think I've got a handle on the requirements.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #14 on: 16 April, 2017, 10:32:26 pm »
Fuck that.
Get on the rollers outside of 'spoons for a cool down.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #15 on: 16 April, 2017, 10:47:22 pm »
Fuck that.

If the French don't do it, neither do I. They record where they are in the 24th hour, often they are at the designated finish before 24 hours are up. The problem is the intent versus the wording.

Well, yes, I agree.
You are allowed to have rest stops within your riding time.

But technically how you use that time varies. So at 22 hours, you could:
- have 1 hours rest and then ride 25k in the last hour, arriving at 24h, and that would be OK.
- ride 25k and then have 1 hours rest, arriving 1 hour before 24h, which is apparently not.

There is clearly no difference, and I doubt anyone would object.
You might reasonably claim you are still 'riding', but just on a permitted rest.

And it's silly anyway, because if you do your 25k and arrive early, all you do is lounge in the pub for an hour before getting your PoP.




Phil W

Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #16 on: 16 April, 2017, 10:55:20 pm »
There was some discussion in our team of this rule that applies if you don't finish your intended route in the 24 hours.

The team will be validated if the actual distance covered is within 20%

Actual distance could be taken as the distance as measured by the GPS trip computer or a standard bike computer. Actual distance is not minimum distance. But some interpreted it as so.

So who is right and how do you validate it?

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #17 on: 16 April, 2017, 10:55:42 pm »
Fuck that.

If the French don't do it, neither do I. They record where they are in the 24th hour, often they are at the designated finish before 24 hours are up. The problem is the intent versus the wording. They don't want folk to finish their ride in 15-18 hours, get a full night's sleep and arrive at the finish fresh as a daisy.

After riding a couple of Fleche Velocio in France, perhaps 10 Fleche Oppy in Oz and 6 or so Easter/Summer Arrows here, along with organising several Fleche Oppys, I think I've got a handle on the requirements.

You've edited your post to the point that you are saying the same thing as I did.
I totally agree.

But I've just pointed out what the actual wording says.

bhoot

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Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #18 on: 16 April, 2017, 11:21:26 pm »
I don't do gps so disagree with mandating it, plus it could be another barrier to 'other' entries (though it's possible that by now, and as with smart phones, I am the only person who doesn't have one.
You aren't  :) We don't do GPS either so were in our element with all the receipts as it's how we do our DIYs. Therefore another "no to mandatory GPS" please. In a way it also seemed that the need to get the entire team with proof of passage added a certain challenge to the whole process.

As a first timer, the rules do seem quite confusing, and chatting over breakfast suggests that I was not alone on this. Maybe a suitable "Arrows for dummies" article in Arrivee would be handy (NB I am writing this without checking whether such a thing has been published recently so quite possibly I will now be put right and sent a link to the very thing!)

Pingu

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Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #19 on: 16 April, 2017, 11:51:02 pm »
There was some discussion in our team of this rule that applies if you don't finish your intended route in the 24 hours.

The team will be validated if the actual distance covered is within 20%

Actual distance could be taken as the distance as measured by the GPS trip computer or a standard bike computer. Actual distance is not minimum distance. But some interpreted it as so.

So who is right and how do you validate it?

Actual distance is taken from your designated start to the point of your final proof of passage, I think. GPS or computers don't enter into it. I'm assuming the usual rules of minimum distance between controls applies to the distance between your 22 hour control and end control should you not finish at your designated end control.

Bianchi Boy

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    • Reading Cycling Club
Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #20 on: 17 April, 2017, 07:07:07 am »
I see from the thread that my suggestion for GPS validation was intended to be IN ADDITION to the current method. As has been pointed out up thread there are problems with parts of a group validation by GPS.

First make sure the riders have ridden as a team, not done loops, have not ridden with another team, ridden the required distance in the last two hours and have not stopped for over two hours. This will not be simple software.There is also the problem of submitting the tracks and having some sort of assurance that it has been submitted by the right person.

Because of all the above and the nature of Audax UK I do not think this will happen, but it would form an interesting model to add to the current paper based offering.

The addition of the fixed end point will make it interesting and would also require some organisation.

As for the current organisation I think this was my 7th Arrow and am always impressed by the organisation. So woul be happy for no change. But it will not attract many new teams and the growing band of cyclists who are up for a challenge.

BB
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #21 on: 17 April, 2017, 07:12:16 am »
Fuck that.

If the French don't do it, neither do I. They record where they are in the 24th hour, often they are at the designated finish before 24 hours are up. The problem is the intent versus the wording. They don't want folk to finish their ride in 15-18 hours, get a full night's sleep and arrive at the finish fresh as a daisy.

After riding a couple of Fleche Velocio in France, perhaps 10 Fleche Oppy in Oz and 6 or so Easter/Summer Arrows here, along with organising several Fleche Oppys, I think I've got a handle on the requirements.

You've edited your post to the point that you are saying the same thing as I did.
I totally agree.

But I've just pointed out what the actual wording says.

The organiser would be flat-out wrong if they took the strictest interpretation of that wording.

My editing expanded my too-brief first post. It did not alter its meaning.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #22 on: 17 April, 2017, 07:20:47 am »
There was some discussion in our team of this rule that applies if you don't finish your intended route in the 24 hours.

The team will be validated if the actual distance covered is within 20%

Actual distance could be taken as the distance as measured by the GPS trip computer or a standard bike computer. Actual distance is not minimum distance. But some interpreted it as so.

So who is right and how do you validate it?

Absolute minimum distance for a validated ride is 360km (24 hours of 15km/hour) e.g. 400km target, 360km ridden = OK.
Your ridden distance must be within 20% of your nominated distance e.g. 500km target, 360km ridden = not OK.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

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Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #23 on: 17 April, 2017, 07:27:25 am »
The bit I was confused about it the 20% over.  I can get the idea that you aim for 420km, have a bit of 'mare and end up in Goole after 24 hours having done 380km (there are presumably worse fates), and this would still count.

But what if you have a stonking tailwind, ride better than you expect, and could add an extra 50km, say by a previously unannounced detour to Market Weighton, and end up 15% over?  Or is that over distance just for the pre-GPS days when a group of four could end up at crossroads each from a different direction?
Eddington Numbers 130 (imperial), 182 (metric) 571 (furlongs)  114 (nautical miles)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Easter Arrow Follow Up/ Summer Arrows 2017
« Reply #24 on: 17 April, 2017, 07:34:19 am »
In the old days, you could add a dogleg within your announced route and have it count but more recently it has been 'clarified' that any extra distance has to be done after you have completed your announced route i.e. ride through York and then complete an extra out-and-back leg. I've used that approach for a couple of Oppys.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...