Author Topic: Spokes - reusable or discard?  (Read 1907 times)

SoreTween

  • Most of me survived the Pennine Bridleway.
Spokes - reusable or discard?
« on: 02 October, 2017, 12:42:14 pm »
Are spokes best used once & discarded? 

I have two MTB wheels that the hubs and rims are shot after 18 hard years.  The spokes are nothing special, just plain gauge £4 per half dozen sorta thing.  It's not about the few pounds I'd save, I just don't see any point in chucking them if they are completely safe to reuse.  I might build a pair to wrap in smooth rolling tyres for when I don't need the knobblies.

Cheers
2023 targets: Survive. Maybe.
There is only one infinite resource in this universe; human stupidity.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #1 on: 02 October, 2017, 12:50:05 pm »
You could reuse them but it is easier and better to build your new wheels with new DB spokes.

Reuse the old spokes as skewers for food (properly cleaned, of course).
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #2 on: 02 October, 2017, 01:45:13 pm »
I reuse quality ss db spokes but anything else gets cut on disassembly. 

Dave_C

  • Trying to get rid of my belly... and failing!
Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #3 on: 02 October, 2017, 01:52:41 pm »
I have cobbled together wheels from different wheels before, but usually unless you have similar hubs and rims, then it is easier to just buy new spokes as the sizes never work out. If I am buying a new wheel, as components, then I'll definitely buy new spokes as the cost is only a small part of the whole wheel. My wheels with reused spokes (commuter trash) are definitely not as good and I have found the nipples come off more readily and then before you know it the whole wheel is goosed as you get multiple spoke failure.
@DaveCrampton < wot a twit.
http://veloviewer.com/athlete/421683/

SoreTween

  • Most of me survived the Pennine Bridleway.
Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #4 on: 02 October, 2017, 04:20:44 pm »
Thanks, binned.
2023 targets: Survive. Maybe.
There is only one infinite resource in this universe; human stupidity.

Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #5 on: 02 October, 2017, 05:21:32 pm »
Thanks, binned.

what a waste; I will happily re-use spokes.

In fact if you asked me which would be more reliable,

1) a wheel with used spokes, properly stress relieved, or
2)  a new wheel without proper stress relief,

it'd be the first one every time.

cheers

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #6 on: 02 October, 2017, 06:05:28 pm »
I re-use them but buy new nipples.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #7 on: 02 October, 2017, 07:58:05 pm »
I have recycled spokes in the past.
First wheel I ever built used a hub from one wheel, rim from another, spokes from yet a third.  Length turned out to be (just) OK for 2-cross
It survived on my tourer for a while (until I built something nicer)
Then on #3 son's bike for a E2E
Then on #4 son's bike for a number of years until he stopped growing and asked for a new bike for a birthday instead of one of my bodgetastic creations.

whosatthewheel

Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #8 on: 02 October, 2017, 08:18:18 pm »
I never re-use them... in theory you can, as long as you keep them in the same place... e.g. drive side leading stays as such, trailing stays as trailing and so on.
That said, 32 new Sapim race are about 15 pounds... and there are cheaper spokes

Torslanda

  • Professional Gobshite
  • Just a tart for retro kit . . .
    • John's Bikes
Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #9 on: 02 October, 2017, 08:53:32 pm »
I do reuse spokes but clean and inspect them beforehand. Anything that shows signs of twisting or abrasion gets binned.

Only today a Carrera Pringle was reshaped into a working wheel using a hub from one scrapper, a rim from another and grubbing around in the bits and bobs produced 32 black spokes of the correct lengths.

The benefits of never throwing anything away...
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #10 on: 02 October, 2017, 09:57:54 pm »
Supposedly Jobst Brandt would reuse spokes again and again when he replaced rims. Tape the two rims together, remove the nipples, and switch the spokes from the old rim to the new. Presumably these were good quality stainless steel spokes.

Here is what he had to say on the subject:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/reusing-spokes.html

whosatthewheel

Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #11 on: 03 October, 2017, 06:10:19 am »
Supposedly Jobst Brandt would reuse spokes again and again when he replaced rims. Tape the two rims together, remove the nipples, and switch the spokes from the old rim to the new. Presumably these were good quality stainless steel spokes.

Here is what he had to say on the subject:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/reusing-spokes.html

re-rimming is different... if the spokes stay in the hub it's perfectly fine to reuse them... the problem arises when you want to build on a different hub

Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #12 on: 03 October, 2017, 08:59:05 am »
the spokes take a fairly hefty cold set at the hub end in most builds.  The potential problem with re-using spokes in other positions is that they will take a second cold set.

If you are really worried about this, sort the spokes into two groups (or four for a rear wheel) as the wheel is disassembled and use them again in those positions.

But really, you don't need to worry; you can cold set a decent spoke (by the amount required in most builds) maybe a dozen times or more before the spoke is liable to fail directly. Cold-setting good spokes a second time doesn't really hurt them any more than doing it for the first time.

Just as with a first use, the important thing is that the wheel is properly stress-relieved after building.

Decades ago, one of the more thoughtful LBS proprietors I have ever met showed me what he did to test spoke quality in a simple ad-hoc fashion. He gripped a length of spoke with two sets of pliers so that there was about 1/4" span between them, and flexed it back and forth, each time getting about a 90 degree bend in the spoke material. Thus each reversal was much more severe than several cold sets during a build would be. Good spokes, he said, usually survived about a dozen reversals  or more, whereas bad spokes didn't.   

Knowing what I know now, a lack of ductility in the material and/or the presence of any reasonable-sized inclusions in the steel, and perhaps an absence of a work-hardening characteristic all contribute to premature failure in this test.   Such things can also compromise the longevity of spokes, or the chances of being able to re-use them, too; for a simple test, it is likely to sort the wheat from the chaff rather well.

Anyway, I've built enough wheels with previously used spokes to know that they can be perfectly reliable. I'd have no hesitation in re-using DT or Sapim spokes (I understand that they are made from the same type of steel from the same source) and other stainless steel spokes are likely to work OK too.  There are a few types of (cheap) stainless spoke that are more likely to give problems anyway; wheels built with such spokes are only reliable if they are thoroughly stress-relieved, whether they are being used for the first or second time.

cheers

Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #13 on: 03 October, 2017, 12:22:55 pm »
Thanks (as ever) Brucey for an informed explanation.  I'll now go ahead and get new rims built on my Dura Ace hubs re-using the CX ray spokes, which would have cost a small fortune to replace (32 + 36).
The sound of one pannier flapping

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #14 on: 03 October, 2017, 12:43:34 pm »
Some builders will refuse to re-use spokes, ostensibly because of safety and longevity but possibly so they can sell you new ones.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #15 on: 03 October, 2017, 02:15:08 pm »
Supposedly Jobst Brandt would reuse spokes again and again when he replaced rims. Tape the two rims together, remove the nipples, and switch the spokes from the old rim to the new.
I do that too, provided I can still get a matching rim. I believe that Jobst bought a big stock of MA2 rims when Mavic stopped producing them.
I've found it easiest to move the spokes and nipples across 1 by 1, doing all the spokes on the same side of the hub as the new rim first, then the other side spokes. It saves on re-lacing time, and the spokes are already set in the hub and stress relieved, so it's just retensioning, truing and releasing the spoke wind up to do.

Builders who refuse to re-use spokes usually do so not for the profit on a new set of spokes, but because they don't know the state of the original spokes, which may be fatigued enough to have had some replacements already, and that any subsequent spoke failures would have to be fixed for free.
If you want them to re-use the spokes, try offering to forego your warranty on the spokes.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #16 on: 03 October, 2017, 02:25:03 pm »
I thought that was standard practice with a like for like rim swap, with the exception of guarantee worries as andrew_s mentions. s
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

whosatthewheel

Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #17 on: 08 October, 2017, 12:50:02 pm »
Some builders will refuse to re-use spokes, ostensibly because of safety and longevity but possibly so they can sell you new ones.

Not really... there is not much money to be made. The problem of "being a PRO" is that you can't really afford things to go wrong... it's bad publicity, so it's best to play it safe... at the end of the day if a pair of wheels cost 260 or 300 pounds, what difference does it really make? It's peace of mind. I built wheels for 4 years semi-commercially, probably built well in excess of 500 wheels. With the exception of those mowed by rear derailleurs and various accidents, I don't have a single spoke failure reported. I've always played within the unwritten rules, avoided stupidly light builds, stupidly low spoke counts that other builders do. It did pay off...

Of course it's different for the DIY builders who want to reuse (possibly expensive) spokes. The chances of spoke failure on a reused spoke are marginally higher

Re: Spokes - reusable or discard?
« Reply #18 on: 08 October, 2017, 02:04:18 pm »
I have just replaced a rim for the second time on a rear wheel.  The spokes will be replaced next time.