Tyre width

[mrcharly-YHT]

Back pedal brakes are great if you lack hand strength, or can only ride with one arm - but those are niche situations. Limited modulation (pretty much limited to on or off) , pain in the proverbial if you need to take out rear wheel . . . Still, once installed they do just work, for limited mileage bikes.

loads of downsides to disc brakes, lots of us have acknowledge them and bemoaned them. Still pretty popular though. It may be a minor point, but one thing I really love is how much cleaner it leaves the rims. No more hands coated in black filth as soon as I touch them.

[Samuel D]

Any kind of internal hub brake lasts a long time in use – literally decades with zero maintenance in the case of my mother’s old Monark. That’s an enormous advantage for bicycles that are only serviced when they literally stop working, which is the vast majority of bicycles in the world. Of course we are different on these forums.

Disc brakes need more attention. A riding partner with disc brakes seems to need new pads every ten minutes at something like €20 a pop. (But hey, the rims last “forever”!) Mind you, like most people enchanted with light lever effort, he thinks they’re great.

[PaulF]

On my disc braked road bike I change the pads every year or so, comparable with the rim braked bike that does a similar mileage. It can be more frequent on the MTBs but that's dependent on conditions.

[citoyen]

You don’t think Michelin’s long-running Pro range (e.g. Pro4) and now Power tyres reveal a fair interest in bicycles?

Well, it's just an impression, not a hard fact, but I would say their extremely limited range compared to the likes of Schwalbe suggests that cycling is a niche market for them. Notwithstanding that the tyres they do produce for cyclists are generally excellent.

their tubed tyres still capture most of the high-performance market

I don't think that's true in the UK. But you're in France, aren't you? I can easily believe it's true over there.

[quixoticgeek]

Any kind of internal hub brake lasts a long time in use – literally decades with zero maintenance in the case of my mother’s old Monark. That’s an enormous advantage for bicycles that are only serviced when they literally stop working, which is the vast majority of bicycles in the world. Of course we are different on these forums.

I would suggest the solution there is to service the bikes more often... How many thousands of km did said Monark do between services?

Disc brakes need more attention. A riding partner with disc brakes seems to need new pads every ten minutes at something like €20 a pop. (But hey, the rims last “forever”!) Mind you, like most people enchanted with light lever effort, he thinks they’re great.

Well I've done >250km since I finished building this bike, and it's got the stock pads that are in the TRP Spyre. I haven't had to replace the pads yet... and the new ones I have ready for when I do cost me under a fiver a pair... And that's riding on road and off, in mostly rain...

J

[LittleWheelsandBig]

You don’t think Michelin’s long-running Pro range (e.g. Pro4) and now Power tyres reveal a fair interest in bicycles?

Well, it's just an impression, not a hard fact, but I would say their extremely limited range compared to the likes of Schwalbe suggests that cycling is a niche market for them. Notwithstanding that the tyres they do produce for cyclists are generally excellent.

their tubed tyres still capture most of the high-performance market

I don't think that's true in the UK. But you're in France, aren't you? I can easily believe it's true over there.

I suspect Hutchinson and Schwalbe are pushing tubeless so hard because they don't have a large share of the performance tyre market, unlike Michelin and Continental.

[Samuel D]

I would suggest the solution there is to service the bikes more often... How many thousands of km did said Monark do between services?

Don’t know but a lot. It went through several tyres during its long life. Like most bicycles, it was serviced when it broke down in some way. Since there were no cables or external gears or brakes, that was seldom.

I suspect Hutchinson and Schwalbe are pushing tubeless so hard because they don't have a large share of the performance tyre market, unlike Michelin and Continental.

Right. It’s for Schwalbe and the others to risk something in the hope of improving their share. The big players don’t want to break what isn’t broken, from their perspective.

I know Schwable is huge in bicycle tyres generally, but they have a small share of the high-end road bike market. That’s clearly changing with their tubeless tyres, so they’re doing something right.

[Brucey]

I do not think that your statement is as true as you think.

I carried a pair of 700c disc wheels with discs attached, strapped to a 65L backpack on a Eurostar and on trains across 4 countries, then installed them on a bike, the disc on one wheel needed to be trued, and this took me exactly one "bend" with an adjustable spanner, and they worked perfectly.

but a disc did get bent (on that one journey...), and you were lucky enough to be able to straighten the disc OK.  Not everyone will be happy doing that; I've seen as many people make it worse as make it better when doing this at the trailside.

They also don't always survive the neglect they typically receive in that service either.  For that service (and for various reasons) I'd choose drum brakes, roller brakes, and even rim brakes over discs.

 Then don't neglect bikes....

Personally I don't but that clearly does not apply to the vast majority of utility cyclists, does it...

With hub brakes you only know that they are wearing out when they fail on you. It's not something you can easily see if the shoe is wearing, unlike rim and disk brakes where you can see the wear level by looking at them.

Not so. The movement of the arm with SA drum brakes clearly indicates the state of wear of the drum linings.

 The current generation of SA drum linings were designed to meet a post office spec that means they have to survive about five years of postie-use, which is a tough act. In normal daily use they typically last five to ten years, and mostly they don't see any maintenance in the meantime. It is quite normal to go at least a year between having to move the barrel adjuster on the cable. When they eventually wear out, a replacement brake plate assy can be fitted to a loose wheel inside two minutes.

 

I had discs on my commuting bike for a while (one that I didn't have to park in hazardous areas) and the brakes were ones that would only take organic pads. The brakes were great for most planned braking, but when it was tipping with rain, there was an enormous amount of lag (a bit like with chrome steel rims and rim brakes) that made any unplanned braking a real lottery.  I came to the conclusion it was only a matter of time till I skittled some dozy sod staggering off the pavement in front of me.

Sounds like you had just poor quality disc brakes... in which case you get what you pay for. The TRP Spyre's that I'm running on my current bike are a world away from the cheaper disc brakes out there.

My disc brakes were not cheap nasty brakes by any means. Quite the reverse in fact. To have someone touting Spyres/spykes on the scant basis of a few week's use makes me chuckle, if anything.  They are (as you will doubtless find out in due course) an over-hyped can of worms. The standard pads wear out very quickly indeed (500 miles is typical, which is about a month's use for many people) and more seriously the guts of the brakes are not in any way protected against the ingress of mud and water. There are unfeasibly tiny ball-bearings inside that corrode very easily and the factory grease is rubbish. Stripping down the caliper to service these pathetic bearings is a major PITA.  The pad adjuster screws are not prevented from moving by themselves in any serious or permanent way.  I have used these brakes and found them seriously lacking.

With different brakes, fitted with sintered pads, that would have been better. But TBH drum brakes work so well for that purpose that it'd be daft to choose something other than those.

Right up to the point where they fail, at which point you're gonna need a proper work shop to do anything with them...

er, no. A replacement brake plate can be fitted to a loose wheel in a couple of minutes and requires two spanners. It is not at all complicated. Roller brakes are similar.  You may have had troubles taking a chaincase apart but on most bikes that have one the rear wheel only has to come out once every couple of years and the chaincase can stay put when you take the rear wheel out anyway. In the event of a BB replacement the chaincase has to come off, at five year plus  intervals. Most decent chaincases (eg Hesling ones) add five minutes, tops, to any job on the bike.

BTW I don't have any great regard for coaster brakes but they often outlast the rest of the bike they are fitted to.

I like nice bikes -in their rightful place- as much as the next chap, but mostly they are maintenance-hungry, flimsy toys by comparison with what is required of a true utility bike.

 You are far from alone in this but the shameful level of ignorance surrounding the characteristics of well-proven drum brakes is quite breathtaking.

cheers

[quixoticgeek]

but a disc did get bent (on that one journey...), and you were lucky enough to be able to straighten the disc OK.  Not everyone will be happy doing that; I've seen as many people make it worse as make it better when doing this at the trailside.

That was the wheels not attached to a bike just strapped to a backpack, able to knock together when changing trains and going through x-ray scanners. The bend was simple to fix. Yes you can make it worse... but that's usually due to clueless user, not a fault of discs.

Then don't neglect bikes....

Personally I don't but that clearly does not apply to the vast majority of utility cyclists, does it...

This is a problem. It's painful seeing some of the things people claim are bikes, being ridden around this city. Many wouldn't need much work occasionally to make them considerably more efficient to ride. It doesn't take long. Same as it doesn't take much effort to pump up the tyres now and again.

Not so. The movement of the arm with SA drum brakes clearly indicates the state of wear of the drum linings.

 The current generation of SA drum linings were designed to meet a post office spec that means they have to survive about five years of postie-use, which is a tough act. In normal daily use they typically last five to ten years, and mostly they don't see any maintenance in the meantime. It is quite normal to go at least a year between having to move the barrel adjuster on the cable. When they eventually wear out, a replacement brake plate assy can be fitted to a loose wheel inside two minutes.

And do these average utility bike users know how to adjust the barrel adjuster?
 

My disc brakes were not cheap nasty brakes by any means. Quite the reverse in fact. To have someone touting Spyres/spykes on the scant basis of a few week's use makes me chuckle, if anything.  They are (as you will doubtless find out in due course) an over-hyped can of worms. The standard pads wear out very quickly indeed (500 miles is typical, which is about a month's use for many people) and more seriously the guts of the brakes are not in any way protected against the ingress of mud and water. There are unfeasibly tiny ball-bearings inside that corrode very easily and the factory grease is rubbish. Stripping down the caliper to service these pathetic bearings is a major PITA.  The pad adjuster screws are not prevented from moving by themselves in any serious or permanent way.  I have used these brakes and found them seriously lacking.

I'll get back to you in a couple of thousand kilometers then. I shall look forward to a pleasant evening in front of netflix doing a full overhaul on them in due course...

er, no. A replacement brake plate can be fitted to a loose wheel in a couple of minutes and requires two spanners. It is not at all complicated. Roller brakes are similar.  You may have had troubles taking a chaincase apart but on most bikes that have one the rear wheel only has to come out once every couple of years and the chaincase can stay put when you take the rear wheel out anyway. In the event of a BB replacement the chaincase has to come off, at five year plus  intervals. Most decent chaincases (eg Hesling ones) add five minutes, tops, to any job on the bike.

Perhaps it's just the drum brakes on Dutch bikes people bring me to fix, coupled with years of neglect in the Dutch weather that means they are a complete total utter PITA to fix...

BTW I don't have any great regard for coaster brakes but they often outlast the rest of the bike they are fitted to.

I like nice bikes -in their rightful place- as much as the next chap, but mostly they are maintenance-hungry, flimsy toys by comparison with what is required of a true utility bike.

 You are far from alone in this but the shameful level of ignorance surrounding the characteristics of well-proven drum brakes is quite breathtaking.

Yeah, you're right, I have absolutely no idea or experience in them. I just fix them, as a hobby, as part of the Bike Maintenance Workshops I run at the local hacker space. Yeah, no clue what so ever...

I'm so glad you put me correct on this.

J

[Cudzoziemiec]

disc brake 101 on road.cc today: http://road.cc/content/feature/233004-how-look-after-disc-brakes-and-get-best-performance-out-them

[Brucey]

Yeah, you're right, I have absolutely no idea or experience in them. I just fix them, as a hobby, as part of the Bike Maintenance Workshops I run at the local hacker space. Yeah, no clue what so ever...

I'm so glad you put me correct on this.

J

I have nothing but admiration for your enthusiasm but you do appear to be unaware of many of the qualities of hub brakes.

Regarding hub brake wear; with a new SA hub brake the brake arm will move only a few mm from the rest (slack cable) position before the brake comes on. As the brake linings wear this distance increases. At the rear if the brake arm is at risk of fouling the axle then the brake linings are worn to the point at which they need replacing. There is a ridge on the front brake plate; if the arm reaches this the linings are worn. Shortly after this the arm will be at risk of fouling the axle.  SA brakes usually come with fixed length cables (nipple both ends) that have long barrel adjusters built in. The length of this barrel adjuster also corresponds approximately with the total wear available in the brake linings.

Similar considerations apply to Sachs/Sram hub brakes and shimano roller brakes, i.e. that the arm movement/position corresponds closely with the brake wear.

Rusty, neglected bikes are more difficult to fix than others for sure. But they often only get that way by working (well enough to keep their owners happy) for prolonged periods of time.

The last bike I had with SA drum brakes was nearly 20 years old. The bike had gone through numerous tyres, BB bearings, and had even cracked the (stainless steel) rear rim slightly, necessitating a little weld repair or two. It had done a lot of hard miles, and lived outdoors. But the brake linings were only about 1/3rd worn, and looked set to outlast the rest of the bike.

 Shame some barsteward  nicked it...

cheers

[Bolt]

It's good that new stuff comes to the market, and after the early adopters have exhausted us with their evangelical enthusiasm some of us may finally turn up to the party late and try this stuff out to see what all the fuss was about.  I too was a convert to hyd discs until a undetectable microscopic fluid leak very nearly drove me mad in trying to diagnose why new pads didn't stay effective for more than a few weeks.  Now I use cable discs on my commuter purely to save rim wear along the many gritty trails to work, but it's nice to know there are still drum shaped options available should I ever feel so inclined in the future.  Similarly, a frankly pathetic experience of road tubeless has left me on the point of reverting to tubes on the road bike.  However, this experience didn't put me off trying out a tubeless conversion this weekend on my Inbred which worked flawlessly first time and makes perfect sense on a bike with oversized tyres and 400g inner tubes.  I do hope road tubeless becomes a truly viable and cost effective option in the future, but not to the point of obsolescing(?) traditional alternatives.

So, let's celebrate in still having a choice in most of what we choose to fit and fettle