Drop-bar touring bike shifters quandary - Sora STI vs Dura Ace Bar Ends vs ???

[Brucey]

mechanical advantage

I've used something very similar to the CR720. Changing the straddle wire angle and relative pivot positions does change the MA...

No, it doesn't, not with those brakes.

[Karla]

: Get Tiagra 9 speed STIs from SJS Cycles.

.....Brakes: do yourself a favour and get mini-Vs.

Not with those STIs; they have the wrong brake cable pull.

I see, was 4500 the Tiagra groupset with weird cable pull?

How about these 4603 Tiagra shifters for £65 from Merlin?

[Brucey]

some brake setups that will usually give acceptable power on a loaded touring bike;

1) BL-R400 levers with BR-CX50/70 brakes (the difference is in the brake blocks, so you can convert from 50 to 70 spec)

2) Current STIs (i.e.with NSSLR cable pull) and mini-Vs (80-90mm arm length)

3) Tektro/cane creek V-levers with mini Vs or full Vs (90-105mm arm length)

There are a lot of other combinations of parts that will give brakes that are crap in various ways.

A caveat to this is that it assumes that the bosses are put on your frame in the usual way, and not at some non-standard height (yes it does happen)

cheers

[Brucey]

: Get Tiagra 9 speed STIs from SJS Cycles.

.....Brakes: do yourself a favour and get mini-Vs.

Not with those STIs; they have the wrong brake cable pull.

I see, was 4500 the Tiagra groupset with weird cable pull?

How about these 4603 Tiagra shifters for £65 from Merlin?

4500 had brake cable pull that was intended to match gen 1 DP brakes (--2008 launch models, roughly). It is a shorter cable pull than you will find in so-called 'New Super SLR' (NSSLR) brake levers, which group includes nearly all STIs launched 2008 or later.  NSSLR levers usually work OK with mini-Vs, earlier STIs and brake levers with the shorter cable pull don't (you get a powerful but spongy brake, with sod-all running clearance).

IIRC 4600 has NSSLR cable pull.

cheers

[Samuel D]

But do BL-R400 levers not pull too little cable for the BR-CX50, ideally speaking? I thought the latter brakes were for New Super SLR pull.



EDIT: wow, Shimano’s umpteen websites are a colossal mess. I cannot find reliable information on this. How can this company be simultaneously so competent and incompetent?

[mzjo]

V-brakes with matching levers.

These will be more powerful than 'trad' cantis, but with the disadvantages that it is harder to get fat tyres out and modulation isn't as good.

That's an interesting perspective.  I have never had issues removing or replacing wheels with v brakes and fat mountain bike tyres.  Also, I find that I can use as little or as much braking force as required, even on a fully loaded tourer.  Each to their own of course.

It depends on the frame. The rear tyre on my mtb is 26x1.9 (nominal) and the sides of the studs rub on the blocks even when you force them apart further than they sit with the cable disconnected. I am even thinking of fitting a disc at the back.

[Kim]

1) Are there still genuine reliability issues with the Dura-Ace 7700 bar end shifters, if fitted correctly?

My gut says they're fine if you don't bash or lean the bike on them (on which basis, don't buy second-hand).  The one I modified^[1] for use on barakta's trike (an orphan from one of my sets) has never given us any problems.  Being fitted to a tadpole trike means it never comes into contact with anything harder than the rider.

And the Microshift BS-A09 is a drop-in replacement if they turn out to be problematic.


_{[1] By extending the lever, to compensate for lack of hand strength.  The mechanism was untouched.}

[Cudzoziemiec]

Bagels is an acronym invented or at least popularized by someone otp, though I'm afraid I can't remember who. Brakes And GEar Levers. A one-word term for STI levers that's not manufacturer-specific and avoids the fugly "brifters".

A new one for me, and one I will instantly forget.  Since Bagels are round with a hole in the  middle I thought it might refer to the twisty ring control of a Rohloff, or a twist grip gear change.

Yeah, I can see the logic there! Tbh if we're talking bakery products I tend to confuse bagels and pretzels – but you definitely don't want a pretzel shifter!

[Cudzoziemiec]

: Get Tiagra 9 speed STIs from SJS Cycles.

.....Brakes: do yourself a favour and get mini-Vs.

Not with those STIs; they have the wrong brake cable pull.

I see, was 4500 the Tiagra groupset with weird cable pull?

How about these 4603 Tiagra shifters for £65 from Merlin?

4500 had brake cable pull that was intended to match gen 1 DP brakes (--2008 launch models, roughly). It is a shorter cable pull than you will find in so-called 'New Super SLR' (NSSLR) brake levers, which group includes nearly all STIs launched 2008 or later.  NSSLR levers usually work OK with mini-Vs, earlier STIs and brake levers with the shorter cable pull don't (you get a powerful but spongy brake, with sod-all running clearance).

IIRC 4600 has NSSLR cable pull.

cheers

That could be useful to know. A while ago I bought (cheap, NOS, club jumble) a set of 105 5700 DP calipers, which I've never got around to using with my 4500 levers*. So how do I find out if they would work or not (other than by experimentation)?

*Not done it yet cos they're black and other components on this bike are shiny; has vanity saved me from dodgy brake disaster?!?! 

[mzjo]

Several high-profile racers including Ullrich and Pantani did that to save weight on mountain stages while allowing rear shifting with muscle memory, back before the introduction of the UCI’s 6.8 kg minimum weight limit in 2000 or afterwards when it was still hard to hit that weight. Nowadays it’s easy with carbon fibre and about €5000. However, for cyclists like me who would like a lighter bicycle but not at the cost of carbon fibre, low-spoke-count wheels, etc., down-tube shifters save a little weight while making the bicycle more rather than less reliable. It’s only one consideration among many but it’s in favour of down-tube shifters.

I think the first was Laurent Jalabert, while he was at Once. On France it was known as the Jaja system and was most unpopular with Shimano who had loads of unwanted lh levers.

[Brucey]

That could be useful to know. A while ago I bought (cheap, NOS, club jumble) a set of 105 5700 DP calipers, which I've never got around to using with my 4500 levers*. So how do I find out if they would work or not (other than by experimentation)?

*Not done it yet cos they're black and other components on this bike are shiny; has vanity saved me from dodgy brake disaster?!?! 

This combination will probably give you very powerful brakes (even with the blocks in the bottom of the slots) with a running clearance that is more like what you would get with Vs than with DPs normally.

If the brake blocks are set in the top of the slots, the brake will if anything be too powerful; a lunge for the brake will likely lob you over the handlebars.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

: Get Tiagra 9 speed STIs from SJS Cycles.

.....Brakes: do yourself a favour and get mini-Vs.

Not with those STIs; they have the wrong brake cable pull.

I see, was 4500 the Tiagra groupset with weird cable pull?

How about these 4603 Tiagra shifters for £65 from Merlin?

4500 had brake cable pull that was intended to match gen 1 DP brakes (--2008 launch models, roughly). It is a shorter cable pull than you will find in so-called 'New Super SLR' (NSSLR) brake levers, which group includes nearly all STIs launched 2008 or later.  NSSLR levers usually work OK with mini-Vs, earlier STIs and brake levers with the shorter cable pull don't (you get a powerful but spongy brake, with sod-all running clearance).

IIRC 4600 has NSSLR cable pull.

The Tiagra 4600 seems only to be 10 speed, though, not 9... or am I right in thinking that pre-4700, all the Tiagra 10 speed road shifters will work with a 9 speed shimano rear MTB mech?

[Brucey]

But do BL-R400 levers not pull too little cable for the BR-CX50, ideally speaking? I thought the latter brakes were for New Super SLR pull.

if you set up BR-CX50/70 brakes with low straddles then they will work OK with NSSLR levers. Not brilliant, but OK for an unladen solo. With BL-R400 they will be properly powerful like you need for a laden touring bike, about as powerful as V brakes. If you find it too much you can always raise the straddles and lower the MA a bit.

Having looked at a couple of cheviots the bosses appear not to be at the right height to give really good power with cantis; it looks like the bosses are set over 25mm from the centre of the brake track.

EDIT: wow, Shimano’s umpteen websites are a colossal mess. I cannot find reliable information on this. How can this company be simultaneously so competent and incompetent?

No kidding. I usually find it quickest to look at the celebrazio website; a couple of clicks and you can see the compatibility tables.

cheers

[Brucey]

The Tiagra 4600 seems only to be 10 speed, though, not 9... or am I right in thinking that pre-4700, all the Tiagra 10 speed road shifters will work with a 9 speed shimano rear MTB mech?

4600 shifters are 10s and will work (as part of a 10s system) using a 9s rear mech.

4700 shifters use a different RD cable pull.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

The Tiagra 4600 seems only to be 10 speed, though, not 9... or am I right in thinking that pre-4700, all the Tiagra 10 speed road shifters will work with a 9 speed shimano rear MTB mech?

4600 shifters are 10s and will work (as part of a 10s system) using a 9s rear mech.

4700 shifters use a different RD cable pull.

cheers

Thanks, though what do you mean "as part of a 10s system" in regard to the 4600s? If you're using a 9 speed rear mech, than presumably are also using a 9-speed chain etc.?

[Brucey]

The Tiagra 4600 seems only to be 10 speed, though, not 9... or am I right in thinking that pre-4700, all the Tiagra 10 speed road shifters will work with a 9 speed shimano rear MTB mech?

4600 shifters are 10s and will work (as part of a 10s system) using a 9s rear mech.

4700 shifters use a different RD cable pull.

cheers

Thanks, though what do you mean "as part of a 10s system" in regard to the 4600s? If you're using a 9 speed rear mech, than presumably are also using a 9-speed chain etc.?

No I mean as part of a 10s system, with a 10s chain, 10s cogs, 10s STIs.

The mech doesn't "know how many speeds it is" it only has a particular shift ratio. That shift ratio happens to be the same for 6s, 7s, 8s, (except for dura ace) all 9s, and all 10s 'road' (apart from 4700).  You can swap a 10s road mech into an 8s system (or vice versa) and it will work fine. 

The various different shifters pull different amounts of cable per click.

cheers

[inappropriate_bike]

If you keep kit for 9 years, and use it every day, then is it worth considering:

 - 11 speed Di2 levers (old ultegra level ones are currently cheap as they've been superseeded by a new release)
 - 11 speed mountain bike Di2 front and rear mech (compatible with road Di2 levers)

Total cost should be sub £1,000 which works out at about 30p a day.

You can get a very large gear range - 50/34 and 11-46 isn't far off a triple - and there's a lot less messing around with an electric set up.

Having my (ti) frame drilled for Di2 cost under £100. Steel should be cheaper.

[Oxford_Guy]

The Tiagra 4600 seems only to be 10 speed, though, not 9... or am I right in thinking that pre-4700, all the Tiagra 10 speed road shifters will work with a 9 speed shimano rear MTB mech?

4600 shifters are 10s and will work (as part of a 10s system) using a 9s rear mech.

4700 shifters use a different RD cable pull.

cheers

Thanks, though what do you mean "as part of a 10s system" in regard to the 4600s? If you're using a 9 speed rear mech, than presumably are also using a 9-speed chain etc.?

No I mean as part of a 10s system, with a 10s chain, 10s cogs, 10s STIs.

The mech doesn't "know how many speeds it is" it only has a particular shift ratio. That shift ratio happens to be the same for 6s, 7s, 8s, (except for dura ace) all 9s, and all 10s 'road' (apart from 4700).  You can swap a 10s road mech into an 8s system (or vice versa) and it will work fine. 

The various different shifters pull different amounts of cable per click.

cheers

Oh I see - yes that would be an option, though would involve replacing pretty much *everything* in my current drive train, except perhaps the cranks themselves and the 9-speed XT rear mech (which may need replacing anyway), so could get pretty expensive...

One thing I'm still *really* not clear about - if using a Sora or Tiagra STI setup, and replacing the front mech with an appropriate one (i.e. Sora or Tiagra) - would I have to replac my existing 22/32/42 Shimano LX crankset entirely? If so, what crankset would I be able to get that would work with these mechs, but give a similar gear range?

[Oxford_Guy]

If you keep kit for 9 years, and use it every day, then is it worth considering:

 - 11 speed Di2 levers (old ultegra level ones are currently cheap as they've been superseeded by a new release)
 - 11 speed mountain bike Di2 front and rear mech (compatible with road Di2 levers)

Total cost should be sub £1,000 which works out at about 30p a day.

You can get a very large gear range - 50/34 and 11-46 isn't far off a triple - and there's a lot less messing around with an electric set up.

Having my (ti) frame drilled for Di2 cost under £100. Steel should be cheaper.

For some probably illogical reason (especially that I'm into electronic gadgets like my Wahoo Elemnt Bolt) I have a strange aversion to using electronic gear shifting on a bike, or at least on a touring bike

[Brucey]

If you keep kit for 9 years, and use it every day, then is it worth considering:

 - 11 speed Di2 levers (old ultegra level ones are currently cheap as they've been superseeded by a new release)

 

running old Di2 kit is strictly for the birds;  the evidence to date is that  shimano don't support it properly. For example if you bought 10s ultegra Di2 then two or three years later you couldn't buy a new front mech (and yes they did break). Shimano's repair route was to buy most of a new 11s groupset. Duh.

IMHO all this stuff has the inside line to the nearest landfill site....

  Having my (ti) frame drilled for Di2 cost under £100.

congratulations, you have just made your frame at least x3 more likely to break, and almost certainly voided whatever warranty it once had....

cheers

[inappropriate_bike]

For some probably illogical reason (especially that I'm into electronic gadgets like my Wahoo Elemnt Bolt) I have a strange aversion to using electronic gear shifting on a bike, or at least on a touring bike

I've kept the mech cable braze-ons on my touring bike just in case I need to get it converted back to gears in the middle of Africa when no one has any Di2 spare parts.

Hasn't happend yet. But probably that's because my life isn't exciting enough 

[inappropriate_bike]

  Having my (ti) frame drilled for Di2 cost under £100.

congratulations, you have just made your frame at least x3 more likely to break, and almost certainly voided whatever warranty it once had....

I didn't do it until the frame warranty had expired anyway! 

[Brucey]

Oh I see - yes that would be an option, though would involve replacing pretty much *everything* in my current drive train, except perhaps the cranks themselves and the 9-speed XT rear mech (which may need replacing anyway), so could get pretty expensive...

One thing I'm still *really* not clear about - if using a Sora or Tiagra STI setup, and replacing the front mech with an appropriate one (i.e. Sora or Tiagra) - would I have to replac my existing 22/32/42 Shimano LX crankset entirely? If so, what crankset would I be able to get that would work with these mechs, but give a similar gear range?

I only mentioned  ST-4600 in response to someone else's query about the brake cable pull. I don't think it would be a good choice for your bike.

I think the LX crankset will work fine but

a) not all 'road' FDs will reach out far enough to work OK on an MTB chainline (but many will)

b) even if they do reach out far enough they won't work quite as well as indexed front mechs; the shift ratio varies through the stroke.

Having said that, this works well enough that some bikes (eg the ridgeback voyage I think) use this kind of setup.

If you want a different chainset that will work well on a touring bike, a ST triple from Spa cycles is a good choice. You can set it up (using different length BB axles) to give the chainline/chainstay clearance that best suits your frame.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

Oh I see - yes that would be an option, though would involve replacing pretty much *everything* in my current drive train, except perhaps the cranks themselves and the 9-speed XT rear mech (which may need replacing anyway), so could get pretty expensive...

One thing I'm still *really* not clear about - if using a Sora or Tiagra STI setup, and replacing the front mech with an appropriate one (i.e. Sora or Tiagra) - would I have to replac my existing 22/32/42 Shimano LX crankset entirely? If so, what crankset would I be able to get that would work with these mechs, but give a similar gear range?

I only mentioned  ST-4600 in response to someone else's query about the brake cable pull. I don't think it would be a good choice for your bike.

I think the LX crankset will work fine but

a) not all 'road' FDs will reach out far enough to work OK on an MTB chainline (but many will)

b) even if they do reach out far enough they won't work quite as well as indexed front mechs; the shift ratio varies through the stroke.

Having said that, this works well enough that some bikes (eg the ridgeback voyage I think) use this kind of setup.

The Ridgeback Panoram uses a Sora r3030 triple front mech and a Shimano Alivio Crankset FC-T4060 48/36/26 (see spec at: https://www.ridgeback.co.uk/bikes/touring/world/panorama). That's geared a little high, but might be acceptable with an 11-34T rear cassette.

If you want a different chainset that will work well on a touring bike, a ST triple from Spa cycles is a good choice. You can set it up (using different length BB axles) to give the chainline/chainstay clearance that best suits your frame.

Though presumably that would mean replacing my nice one-year old Hope external BB with a square taper one?

It's very tempting to just think "sod it" and go for bar end shifters...

[Cudzoziemiec]

That could be useful to know. A while ago I bought (cheap, NOS, club jumble) a set of 105 5700 DP calipers, which I've never got around to using with my 4500 levers*. So how do I find out if they would work or not (other than by experimentation)?

*Not done it yet cos they're black and other components on this bike are shiny; has vanity saved me from dodgy brake disaster?!?! 

This combination will probably give you very powerful brakes (even with the blocks in the bottom of the slots) with a running clearance that is more like what you would get with Vs than with DPs normally.

If the brake blocks are set in the top of the slots, the brake will if anything be too powerful; a lunge for the brake will likely lob you over the handlebars.

cheers

Thanks, Brucey. (I presume you mean the running clearance will be less than you'd normally get with DPs?)