Author Topic: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??  (Read 4939 times)

mattc

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Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« on: 29 April, 2018, 07:35:15 pm »
Asking for a friend, who might be heading for local May-day knees-up ...

(Of course the answer is almost certainly- yes, The Man can do what the f**k he wants (and try arguing with a burly security guy if you think you are in the right). But I'd love to hear otherwise! )

Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

handcyclist

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Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #1 on: 29 April, 2018, 07:50:31 pm »
Now, where did I put my train company protest bicycle shaped piece of cardboard ...... ;D
Doubt is is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.

Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #2 on: 29 April, 2018, 07:54:34 pm »
At least the ban on bikes being pushed isn't where and when cars will be driven.......
Quote from: Kim
Paging Diver300.  Diver300 to the GSM Trimphone, please...

Kim

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Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #3 on: 29 April, 2018, 08:19:02 pm »
Probably, if you've got a TRO.

Otherwise Crank vs Brooks presumably applies?

Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #4 on: 29 April, 2018, 08:22:39 pm »
IANAL, but AIUI UK case law (Crank v Brooks) is that a person pushing a bike on foot is a pedestrian (well, technically a 'foot-passenger', but they're not considered to be driving or riding it.)

Edit: Kim beat me to it.

Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #5 on: 29 April, 2018, 08:26:18 pm »
IGIMB but IHTLIUTMS, TRO =Traffic Regulation Order.

Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #6 on: 29 April, 2018, 08:29:07 pm »
Quote
Please note that bicycles - ridden and pushed - will not be allowed to cross the bridge during the event.

What about carried?

Phil W

Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #7 on: 29 April, 2018, 08:37:24 pm »
Or pulled?

Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #8 on: 29 April, 2018, 08:37:53 pm »
I've had a quick look around, but can't find a list of TROs on the Oxford council website; I'd be interested to see how they've worded them.

mcshroom

  • Mushroom
Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #9 on: 29 April, 2018, 10:10:05 pm »
Is it just me or does Crank vs Brooks sound more like a cycling accident than a court case? :D
Climbs like a sprinter, sprints like a climber!

Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #10 on: 29 April, 2018, 10:30:13 pm »
We have a similar getting lots of people over a bridge at once with marshals and lanes thing in Lewes once a year.
A load of people with bikes would probably create a hazard, certainly take more space than the people without bikes, but particularly in the case of needing them all to turn around and go the other way for some reason. (That often happens in Lewes, when a bunch of people with fire show. Singed tyres might also be an issue.)
It doesn't strike me as the worst restriction in the world.

Phil W

Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #11 on: 29 April, 2018, 10:32:14 pm »
So a ban on push chairs and large luggage as well?

Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #12 on: 29 April, 2018, 10:37:43 pm »
If bikes are banned I'd hope so, otherwise the reasons for banning bikes start to look spurious.

iddu

  • Are we there yet?
Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #13 on: 30 April, 2018, 01:51:32 am »
I've had a quick look around, but can't find a list of TROs on the Oxford council website; I'd be interested to see how they've worded them.

http://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/announcements/public_notices/notice/71258.OXFORD_CITY_VARIOUS_TEMPORARY_TRAFFIC_MANAGEMENT/
I'd offer you some moral support - but I have questionable morals.

PaulF

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Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #14 on: 30 April, 2018, 05:45:51 am »
Given the sheer volume of people in the area the fastest way for someone with a bike to get from one side of Magdalen Bridge to the other on Tuesday morning would be long way, down Iffley Road, Weir Road and up Abingdon Road. Two years ago it took us over an hour to get from the tower to the other side of the bridge.

mattc

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Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #15 on: 30 April, 2018, 10:20:18 am »
I've had a quick look around, but can't find a list of TROs on the Oxford council website; I'd be interested to see how they've worded them.

http://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/announcements/public_notices/notice/71258.OXFORD_CITY_VARIOUS_TEMPORARY_TRAFFIC_MANAGEMENT/
Good find iddu. relevant text is:

Quote
This Order is being introduced on public safety grounds during May Day celebrations between 2am & 9am on Tuesday 1st May, because of the likelihood of danger to the public due to the congestion of vehicles and pedestrians on Magdalen Bridge. The effect of the Order is to prohibit motor vehicles and bicycles in part of High Street from ...

I do not own a cardboard cutout bike, so will leave that experiment to others. :)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

iddu

  • Are we there yet?
Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #16 on: 30 April, 2018, 03:38:28 pm »
Given the sheer volume of people in the area the fastest way for someone with a bike to get from one side of Magdalen Bridge to the other on Tuesday morning would be long way, down Iffley Road, Weir Road and up Abingdon Road. Two years ago it took us over an hour to get from the tower to the other side of the bridge.

???

Go to the corner of South Park Rd / St Cross Rd and take the Marston Cyclepath across to Ferry Rd - much shorter...
I'd offer you some moral support - but I have questionable morals.

PaulF

  • "World's Scariest Barman"
  • It's only impossible if you stop to think about it
Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #17 on: 30 April, 2018, 03:50:36 pm »
Given the sheer volume of people in the area the fastest way for someone with a bike to get from one side of Magdalen Bridge to the other on Tuesday morning would be long way, down Iffley Road, Weir Road and up Abingdon Road. Two years ago it took us over an hour to get from the tower to the other side of the bridge.

 ???

Go to the corner of South Park Rd / St Cross Rd and take the Marston Cyclepath across to Ferry Rd - much shorter...

Makes more sense! In my defence it was early :-D and I don't know Oxford that well. But my point was that tomorrow morning any route will be quicker than the direct one!

Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #18 on: 30 April, 2018, 06:05:55 pm »
So a ban on push chairs and large luggage as well?

There appear to be restrictions as well

Quote
There will also be designated viewing areas for wheelchair users, families with young children and those with buggies in the car park of Magdalen College School and in Rose Lane.

I think a wheelchair ban would be a lot more difficult to enforce than a cycle ban, legally or morally

barakta

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Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #19 on: 30 April, 2018, 09:32:34 pm »
I agree re banning wheelchairs would be legally dodgy and they're expected to make great efforts to provide an alternative whereas for buggies and cycles they don't legally have to.

Also for many wheelchair users, banning the wheelchair is tantamount to cutting their legs off. Cyclists can go a different route or in many cases manage without cycle for a while. Cases of disabled person using cycle as a mobility aid have not been well tested and do not go down well in court.

T42

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Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #20 on: 01 May, 2018, 09:01:10 am »
Asking for a friend, who might be heading for local May-day knees-up ...

(Of course the answer is almost certainly- yes, The Man can do what the f**k he wants (and try arguing with a burly security guy if you think you are in the right). But I'd love to hear otherwise! )

Someone should turn up on a trike.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #21 on: 01 May, 2018, 09:13:59 am »
IANAL, but AIUI UK case law (Crank v Brooks) is that a person pushing a bike on foot is a pedestrian (well, technically a 'foot-passenger', but they're not considered to be driving or riding it.)

But that ruling refers to the status of the person not the presence or absence of a bicycle.

The original decision was that a person pushing a bicycle across a pedestrian crossing was not a foot-passenger and therefore did not need to be accorded precedence at the crossing, i.e. the presence of the bike changed their status.

The appeal (which is Crank vs Brooks) reversed this and said that a person pushing a bicycle across a pedestrian crossing should be considered a foot-passenger, but they're still a foot-passenger pushing a bicycle.

The point is the Crank vs Brooks ruling doesn't make the bicycle disappear, it reinforces the status of the person irrespective of whether a bicycle is present.

If bikes (even pushed) are restricted somehow (e.g. a TRO) then that's what is going to apply. The question in the restriction is not the status of the person but the presence of a bicycle. Crank vs Brooks doesn't change anything or help in this case.

You can't try and take a bicycle into a cinema with you and just claim Crank vs Brooks. (I know it's not quite the same thing as a cinema isn't a public place, but you get the idea.)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #22 on: 01 May, 2018, 11:13:20 am »
Many years ago, I got into a discussion with a couple of security guards disputing whether I could push my bike through a pedestrian mall. Once I put my bike on my shoulder and declared it to be my luggage, I had a two man escort through the mall ensuring that the wheels didn't touch the ground till I got to the other end. Honour satisfied all round.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Kim

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Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #23 on: 01 May, 2018, 12:49:52 pm »
Many years ago, I got into a discussion with a couple of security guards disputing whether I could push my bike through a pedestrian mall. Once I put my bike on my shoulder and declared it to be my luggage, I had a two man escort through the mall ensuring that the wheels didn't touch the ground till I got to the other end. Honour satisfied all round.

A folded Brompton rolling on the EZ-wheels is an interesting edge case for this sort of thing.  One day I'm hoping for a jobsworth to halt and catch fire in the classic science fiction robot style as they try to rationalise why *those* wheels are bad but *these* wheels aren't.


Someone (was it here or u.r.c?) once managed to wheel their bike through a mall using the "It's faulty.  I'm taking it back to Argos for a refund." defence.

Re: Can you ban PUSHED bicycles from a road??
« Reply #24 on: 01 May, 2018, 03:08:36 pm »
Many years ago, I got into a discussion with a couple of security guards disputing whether I could push my bike through a pedestrian mall. Once I put my bike on my shoulder and declared it to be my luggage, I had a two man escort through the mall ensuring that the wheels didn't touch the ground till I got to the other end. Honour satisfied all round.

A folded Brompton rolling on the EZ-wheels is an interesting edge case for this sort of thing.  One day I'm hoping for a jobsworth to halt and catch fire in the classic science fiction robot style as they try to rationalise why *those* wheels are bad but *these* wheels aren't.


Someone (was it here or u.r.c?) once managed to wheel their bike through a mall using the "It's faulty.  I'm taking it back to Argos for a refund." defence.
How many parts do you need to remove before it stops being a bicycle and starts being a collection of bike parts?
Maybe you need 2 people to carry bits of bikes?