Author Topic: Help With Fuelling?  (Read 15911 times)

offcumden

  • Oh, no!
Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #50 on: 06 February, 2016, 02:16:52 pm »
Ah, I see!  All the same, it does seem that kicking the gel habit was a good thing.  Enjoy the sunshine - it's tipping down in Yorkshire  :(

Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #51 on: 09 February, 2016, 09:23:13 am »
If you ever forget what to eat on a bike ride, remember,,,

"The word 'bike' is constructed with the first two letters of 'biscuit' and the last two letters of 'cake'."

Easy.

Now there's no need to continue this thread,  :thumbsup:

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #52 on: 09 February, 2016, 12:01:34 pm »
Much though I love cakes and biscuits, there might well be a point when the thought makes you  :sick:

Eat what you crave and can get.

Always eat as soon as you get a puncture or other mechanical issue (unless you have just left a control).

It might be the last time you have clean hands.
Your mind works best when your blood sugar is not in your boots.
Food is absorbed better when you are not exerting yourself.

I know I've said this before...

Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #53 on: 09 February, 2016, 12:16:15 pm »
Should I eat the punctured tube  ???


 ;)

As a BTW, one Digestive biscuit of 80 cals can get a cyclist along for ten miles. The remaining energy requirement is taken from lipids. On a 300km, less than one large pack of McV’s Digestives will suffice.

One bickie every 15 km.

Milk in one’s bidon is best for night-time riding, but beware you don’t fall asleep at the handlebars.
 ;D

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #54 on: 09 February, 2016, 12:42:11 pm »
Aren't half the calories in McV's digestives from fat?
Will look it up...

Well, only 39% calories from fat...

Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #55 on: 09 February, 2016, 07:11:33 pm »
Aren't half the calories in McV's digestives from fat?
Will look it up...

Well, only 39% calories from fat...

Digestive biscuit, smothered with pate de foie gras.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #56 on: 09 February, 2016, 07:21:43 pm »
Aren't half the calories in McV's digestives from fat?
Will look it up...

Well, only 39% calories from fat...

Digestive biscuit, smothered with pate de foie gras.

39% Calories from fat is your DULL, dry, uncoated McVitie's Digestive.

In other news these have a lower sugar percentage by weight than All-Bran.

There again, they both taste of cardboard...

Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #57 on: 10 February, 2016, 10:28:44 am »
But don't forget, a well trained long distance cyclist ( or ice sled pusher ) is fuelled mostly by fats.

At the intesnsity of yor regular Audax event, more than 75% of energy rquirements prob come from lipids and lipolysis.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #58 on: 10 February, 2016, 12:59:29 pm »
But don't forget, a well trained long distance cyclist ( or ice sled pusher ) is fuelled mostly by fats.

At the intesnsity of yor regular Audax event, more than 75% of energy rquirements prob come from lipids and lipolysis.

I wish that had been true for me when I was cyclin BIG distances.

It never was if I wanted to complete events in time.

I tried.

I failed.

I ate.

Mostly carbs.

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

  • Miles eaten don't satisfy hunger
  • Chartered accountant in 5 different decades
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Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #59 on: 10 February, 2016, 01:04:12 pm »
If it's any help, at the weekend I rode 120 miles, on a fairly hilly route, with a stop at 56 miles.  The lunch stop was wind and gravity neutral (if anything there was slightly more climbing  and headwind in the second half.  Average speed for the return was 0.5mph faster than the outward section, so it can only be down to what I had for lunch....

Cheese & Ham toastie plus salad
Coffee & Walnut cake
Large black Americano
Eddington Numbers 130 (imperial), 182 (metric) 571 (furlongs)  114 (nautical miles)

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #60 on: 10 February, 2016, 01:26:53 pm »
Should I eat the punctured tube  ???


 ;)

As a BTW, one Digestive biscuit of 80 cals can get a cyclist along for ten miles. The remaining energy requirement is taken from lipids. On a 300km, less than one large pack of McV’s Digestives will suffice.

One bickie every 15 km.

Milk in one’s bidon is best for night-time riding, but beware you don’t fall asleep at the handlebars.
 ;D

I won't be falling asleep, I'll be vomiting all over the handlebars, and anyone lucky enough to be in the vicinity.

I'll stick to my zero or nuun, failing that a large coffee.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #61 on: 10 February, 2016, 01:52:59 pm »
"One man's meat,,,".

I rode the Two Battles 200 on a Big Johns 20" pizza with all the meats.

In fact, I gained fat weight that weekend, so I went for a 10 mile run ( jogging ) on the Monday evening to shift the fat I'd laid down.

Some of the other riders were slurping pink coloured energy drinks out of Bidons they carried with them. I don't take bidons. I stop for coffee.

"...is another man's poison."

Chris S

Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #62 on: 10 February, 2016, 01:53:05 pm »
I'm doing some very low intensity "training" (it's so low intensity, I hesitate to call it "training") which includes a long fasted weekend ride; in conjunction with a very low carb diet - less than 50g a day.

Last Sunday, I managed 102km completely fasted, around where we're going to be living very shortly (and where even the flat bits have hills - at least, for this flatlander's legs) without any energy issues. Sure I was VERY ready to eat by the time I finished, but I didn't need any carbs (tea was cheese, chicken, ham and a fruit salad at Wetherby services - classy) and energy flow and focus was easily good enough for me to drive 300 miles back south in shitty weather, without any problems whatsoever.

Get the fat burning right - and you simply don't need to worry about food. Or digestive issues during a ride, because you're trying/having to force food in. But to get it this useful, you have to follow what most people would regard as a really unbalanced diet (75% fat, 20% protein, 5% carbs). No bread (no grains of any kind) and no sugar except small incidental amounts in fruit.

Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #63 on: 10 February, 2016, 02:32:26 pm »

Get the fat burning right - and you simply don't need to worry about food. Or digestive issues during a ride, because you're trying/having to force food in. But to get it this useful, you have to follow what most people would regard as a really unbalanced diet (75% fat, 20% protein, 5% carbs). No bread (no grains of any kind) and no sugar except small incidental amounts in fruit.

Sorry to disagree but you don't have to restrict carbs to that extent to run primarily on fat.

I eat at least 5/6 portions of fruit daily with no restrictions on veg type of quantity and can easily do 100km with 1000m climbing fasted and have gone up to 150km completely fasted.

You can force the necessary adaptation by eliminating junk carb/high gi with fasted training.

Right now I'm eating circa 100g of carb daily, as I'm doing a block of weight training, and I did a 113km ride Sunday at 25km/h. I'm normally a little faster but my issue was fatigue from heavy stuff rather than food, or lack thereof.

Given how restricted a ketogenic diet is (especially in the modem world) along with how the body down regulates its ability to use glycogen (and hence power loss) I'm not sure it's the best strategy for audax.

Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #64 on: 10 February, 2016, 02:35:32 pm »

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #65 on: 10 February, 2016, 02:40:51 pm »
I don't find a ketogenic diet at all restrictive.

I'm eating more veggies than I used to.  Instead of deriving bulk from cheap nasty refined carbs, the voluminous veggies now suffice.

Normal days c.50g carbs is absolutely sufficient with that being deived from root veggies, fruit, oatcakes in place of bread or crackers.  Fats and proteins from a wide variety of meat/white fish/oily fish/soya/quorn/eggs/beans

My concession is a slight hybrid approach on longer rides where for other reasons, I end up needing to consume small amounts of carbs, typically 20-30g/hr of activity, whereas the classical approach would have you taking consuming c.100g/hr at my typical running and riding paces, which I can't see anyone replacing ta that rate without serious stomach issues.

I still use a few gels, hardly ever use liquid carbs, these days tend to use fruit/nut/flapjacky/oaty things as lower GI.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #66 on: 10 February, 2016, 03:18:58 pm »
I don't find a ketogenic diet at all restrictive.

I'm eating more veggies than I used to.  Instead of deriving bulk from cheap nasty refined carbs, the voluminous veggies now suffice.

Normal days c.50g carbs is absolutely sufficient with that being deived from root veggies, fruit, oatcakes in place of bread or crackers.  Fats and proteins from a wide variety of meat/white fish/oily fish/soya/quorn/eggs/beans

My concession is a slight hybrid approach on longer rides where for other reasons, I end up needing to consume small amounts of carbs, typically 20-30g/hr of activity, whereas the classical approach would have you taking consuming c.100g/hr at my typical running and riding paces, which I can't see anyone replacing ta that rate without serious stomach issues.

I still use a few gels, hardly ever use liquid carbs, these days tend to use fruit/nut/flapjacky/oaty things as lower GI.

Are you measuring ketones in your blood/urine? How often?

When I was in ketosis I had no fruit and no oats of any sort. Even then you have to be careful of not eating too much protein; as the liver will make glycogen out of it. Peter Attia was dumping egg whites in order to keep in ketosis due to protein content and just eating yokes.

Dr Louise Burke has a podcast on thescienceofultra.com where she talks about ketogenic experiments and the difficulty in keeping to diet WITH all the support the comes with funded studies. Lots of the subjects thought they had previously tried a ketogenic diet but it seems they were off by quite a bit.

Why do you need 30g/hr of carbs if you are in ketosis?

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #67 on: 10 February, 2016, 04:14:57 pm »
I don't find a ketogenic diet at all restrictive.

I'm eating more veggies than I used to.  Instead of deriving bulk from cheap nasty refined carbs, the voluminous veggies now suffice.

Normal days c.50g carbs is absolutely sufficient with that being deived from root veggies, fruit, oatcakes in place of bread or crackers.  Fats and proteins from a wide variety of meat/white fish/oily fish/soya/quorn/eggs/beans

My concession is a slight hybrid approach on longer rides where for other reasons, I end up needing to consume small amounts of carbs, typically 20-30g/hr of activity, whereas the classical approach would have you taking consuming c.100g/hr at my typical running and riding paces, which I can't see anyone replacing ta that rate without serious stomach issues.

I still use a few gels, hardly ever use liquid carbs, these days tend to use fruit/nut/flapjacky/oaty things as lower GI.

Are you measuring ketones in your blood/urine? How often?

When I was in ketosis I had no fruit and no oats of any sort. Even then you have to be careful of not eating too much protein; as the liver will make glycogen out of it. Peter Attia was dumping egg whites in order to keep in ketosis due to protein content and just eating yokes.

Dr Louise Burke has a podcast on thescienceofultra.com where she talks about ketogenic experiments and the difficulty in keeping to diet WITH all the support the comes with funded studies. Lots of the subjects thought they had previously tried a ketogenic diet but it seems they were off by quite a bit.

Why do you need 30g/hr of carbs if you are in ketosis?

Periodically test blood ketones.  And yes, I'm careful about not going OTT with proteins for exactly the reason you suggest.

In terms of the 30g/hr, I'm a T1 diabetic, and it's all about getting the balance right between my insulin on board and the exercise. You non-pancreatically challenged folks effectively turn off insulin production whereas I turn my pump down. I'm at a point where I think I'm happy with it and it's manageable, but with the trade-off of needing a bit of carbs now and then.  Only during exercise though, so although they may be restricting fat burn they are not contributing to blood sugar rise.

That said, I may do further experimentation, unless it has negative post-exercise impacts.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #68 on: 10 February, 2016, 04:47:01 pm »
I like tortilla wraps for longer rides.  Spread with peanut butter, a bit of jam or nutella as well if like, folded up, wrapped in cling film and stuffed in a jersey pocket.  Easy to eat on the move and contain a fair number of calories.  Roast chicken and guacamole is also a good filling.
I also detest gels and have always faired well on rides when I've eaten solid carbs (bread or pasta) plus protein and fat in a roughly 3:1:1 ratio.  Then have a cake at the cafe or control.

Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #69 on: 10 February, 2016, 04:56:16 pm »
Big fan of a double sausage and egg McMuffin too.  :thumbsup:

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #70 on: 10 February, 2016, 06:05:28 pm »
An extreme example of how little food is necessary for ultra running, an event which makes audax look like a Sunday stroll!

This guy wasn't making up the numbers but winning

https://eoinkeith.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/the-spine-race-2016-nutriton/
That's certainly extreme.
Quote
I’ve won the New York 6 day race when I ate almost nothing (just a few ice cream treats in the heat) for the first 5 days (and only ate on the last day because I was so far in front that I could indulge the luxuries!).
Most people would find going 5 days without food extremely difficult and weakening even without running at the same time. So I don't think he can really be taken as a guide to 'fuelling' for most of us any more than Wiggo's time trial results can be a guide to audax finish times.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #71 on: 10 February, 2016, 08:08:58 pm »
An extreme example of how little food is necessary for ultra running, an event which makes audax look like a Sunday stroll!

This guy wasn't making up the numbers but winning

https://eoinkeith.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/the-spine-race-2016-nutriton/
That's certainly extreme.
Quote
I’ve won the New York 6 day race when I ate almost nothing (just a few ice cream treats in the heat) for the first 5 days (and only ate on the last day because I was so far in front that I could indulge the luxuries!).
Most people would find going 5 days without food extremely difficult and weakening even without running at the same time. So I don't think he can really be taken as a guide to 'fuelling' for most of us any more than Wiggo's time trial results can be a guide to audax finish times.

Kinda ironic you should mention Wigging as the OP got in trouble using "food" which is very TT appropriate on long endurance rides....

What I quoted is pretty extreme but does that mean audax riders, who's events are as long as the run in question, can't learn something from it?

The main point being body fat, of which even us lean people have huge amounts, is an entirely appropriate fuel for audax. A few minor adaptations allow it to become the primary fuel choice, hence reducing the food required on the go and the issues it causes many people. The OP is far from unique.

I do a lot of fasts, two 24hrs fast every month. They are much easier than I would have thought possible before and extending it for a few days isn't difficult either. We have all the hardware to deal with fasts quite well, but as we are always surrounded by food it seems some alien concept now.

While Wigging speed is far beyond an audax riders does that mean we can learn anything from him which could help our riding.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #72 on: 10 February, 2016, 08:23:56 pm »
Personally, I fast very well.
So long as I don't exert myself.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #73 on: 10 February, 2016, 11:38:25 pm »
It's Ash Wednesday today; religious practices as an introduction to audax? !?!?!?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Help With Fuelling?
« Reply #74 on: 11 February, 2016, 09:05:39 am »
To successfully achieve a 200km rando in a state of ketosis, it ought to be after a year of gradually decreasing one’s CHO daily intake.
Jumping straight in, as Atkins prescribed, was to see large amounts of fat % loss ASAP, FOR EFFECT, not necessarily Health.
Many sudden converts to the Atkins or ZeroCarb diet get tremendous headaches, which IMHO, is not healthy, as the ‘normal operation’ of the human brain is NOT having a headache.

I embarked on a Keto diet in 1996 by reversing Atkins’ procedure to assess ‘Carbs to achieve weight loss’ value. I gradually reduced carbs, not totally cut and subsequently added.
I was riding 35 miles per day to work then, and over three months, I didn’t get a headache at all and then rode the Castleton Classic 200 in a state of Keto.