Perm events - Why no explanation of the route

[Greenbank]

The mattc has spoken, there is nothing more to be said!

The current situation isn't good, and an extreme polar opposite solution (delisting non-compliant perms) is obviously undesirable therefore there's absolutely nothing that can be done, just accept it. There is no middle ground and no point talking about possible solutions.

(presumably whitedown man is abrim with innovative new-fangled thinking - as opposed to the stagnant AUK he so detests, resistant to anything new, without a creative bone left in his frail skeleton ... )

You've surpassed yourself with this matt though...

[mattc]

There is no middle ground and no point talking about possible solutions.

Nope. Good try. My post that you spent so much space dismantling was in fact just disputing one polar view.

[obligatory leading question]
Which extreme polar view do you align yourself with?
[/obligatory leading question]

[mattc]

Also, I believe the web form for creating a perm doesn't ask for all the controls, unlike a calendar event, so you don't get that automated description of controls visited in the first paragraph.

It may be that this is because of the wide variety of Perm formats. How would you fit DIYs into this???

Then there is this amazing ride
http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/ML01/

(to be clear, this is brimming with useful detail!) How do you force that into a standard template?? I tried the search, and nothing "obvious" returned this event. Such is life.

[Bobby]

Personally I think that a list of controls & a googlemaps outline of the rough route should be the minimum standard for all perms.  Most perms you can join at any control, so having a clue where is goes lets you simply rule it in or out...

I'm really not trying to single out any orgnaiser here (without you we'd have nothing), but this example was the 2nd perm I clicked on today: http://www.aukweb.net/perms/detail/SU01/

If that heads 150km towards my house, then I could ride it no problem.  If that heads 150km away from me, then I can only do it with a car, hotel costs etc.  At the moment there isn't a listed way to quickly contact the org to ask any questions, so I ether:

1) Don't bother
2) Enter blindly & hope the route is something I can participate in
3) Ask on YACF...
4) Write the org a letter & put a stamp on it...


I'd say this is one example of AUK not being very welcoming of newbies.  I had 3.5 years between riding my first audax (LEL2009) and coming back for more/getting hooked, partly that was because there was a lack of any attractive information to draw me in.  That situation is a lot better now, but click through the perms and each one should leave you knowing enough to say "yeah I'd love to enter that one" or "that's not for me" rather than "no idea what that is, I cant be arsed to look any more"

[Ivan]

Also, I believe the web form for creating a perm doesn't ask for all the controls, unlike a calendar event, so you don't get that automated description of controls visited in the first paragraph.

It may be that this is because of the wide variety of Perm formats. How would you fit DIYs into this???

Then there is this amazing ride
http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/ML01/

(to be clear, this is brimming with useful detail!) How do you force that into a standard template?? I tried the search, and nothing "obvious" returned this event. Such is life.

DIYs have got nothing to do with this, I am talking about the listing of perms on aukweb. Every perm has to have a designated list of controls, as printed on the brevet, but this information isn't summarised on the entry page. cf, at random:

Faffers 400 Perm: 400km cycling event starting from Didcot, OxfordshireOxfordshire..

Freewheeling Festival Ride: 80km cycling event starting from Abingdon, Oxon. Controls at Longworth; Blue Boar, plus 1 information control.

I've taken the controls listed for a calendar event in the past and put them into google maps to get an idea of the route.

[mattc]

Ok, whatever.

[Philip Whiteman]

FEED UP WITH PERMS NOT INCLUDING ANY DETAILS, WELL HERE IS THE ANSWER TO YOUR PROBLEMS 

Otherwise some shameless advertising for my perm, the Montgomery Madness.

Not only are details provided on the AUK Calendar Page but supporting webpages are provided too !

http://www.aukweb.net/perms/detail/PW01/

[JamieD]

FEED UP WITH PERMS NOT INCLUDING ANY DETAILS, WELL HERE IS THE ANSWER TO YOUR PROBLEMS 
http://www.aukweb.net/perms/detail/PW01/

Thank you. This is more than I expected but it covered the key points I was looking for

1. Where does it nominally start from

2. Confirmation that there is a GPX track. I wouldn't enter something unless I could get a GPX track.


The reason is that I might want to just ride one without actually entering (due to not enough notice for entering)

[Redlight]

When a newbie clicks on a link to a perm we should all want their first reaction to be "wow! I really want to ride that", not instead to be left confused and under-informed.

I think this should apply to anyone, not just newbies.

There seem to be two threads here. One is about the technical challenges/obstacles to making it a requirement for organisers to include information about the route on the web site. I can't comment on that.  The other is about the desirability or otherwise of having easily accessible some basic information that would help someone decide whether a Perm was right for them.  I'll leave aside the GPX track question - I don't believe that should be an requirement, although I know many organisers happily provide them.

I have generally avoided perms because the majority of listings on the web site don't contain enough information for me to decide. The most common seems to be along the lines of "200km cycling event starting from [insert county]".  That's pretty useless unless you are prepared to commit to getting to whichever village war memorial, miles from the nearest rail station, that the organiser has chosen as the start point, without knowing in advance where that's going to be.  I like know at least where I am going to start and roughly - only roughly - where I'm going to be going.

Contrast it with this actual example:

"400km cycling event starting from Tonbridge Kent..

Tour of Kent with brief forays into East Sussex And Surrey. A ideal route to step up to 400 perms with roughly 2800m of climbing. Start And finish at any same control - Tonbridge, Sturry, Sandwich, Rye, Tenterden,Lingfield, East Peckham,Channel Tunnel Services"

Surely that's not too much to ask for, is it?  And if it's likely to result in more people riding the Perm, then why on earth would you not want to do it?

[wilkyboy]

Surely that's not too much to ask for, is it?  And if it's likely to result in more people riding the Perm, then why on earth would you not want to do it?

The space available for adding information to the AUK pages is very limited.  That's why many orgs link out to their own websites, where they can be a little more expansive.  My growing list of perms around Cambridge are listed here, along with links to others that come within spitting distance of Cambridge by other orgs:

http://www.camaudax.uk/rides/permanents

[JamieD]

I have generally avoided perms because the majority of listings on the web site don't contain enough information for me to decide. The most common seems to be along the lines of "200km cycling event starting from [insert county]".  That's pretty useless unless you are prepared to commit to getting to whichever village war memorial, miles from the nearest rail station, that the organiser has chosen as the start point, without knowing in advance where that's going to be.  I like know at least where I am going to start and roughly - only roughly - where I'm going to be going.

A list of controls would be a great starting point. I'm looking to perms as a way of training for LEL and the idea of finding one which has controls which are easy for me to get to for the start/finish is quite important.

Yes, I could ask for suggestions of 200K, 300K and 400K perms that have controls which can easily be reached from Kingston-upon-Thames but is that really the best solution? Although if anyone wants to suggest any (already know about London Ditchling Devil) that would be great.

[wilkyboy]

The reason is that I might want to just ride one without actually entering ...

Please don't just ride it — enter it!  The organiser has spent a lot of effort crafting and checking a route, routesheet and possibly also GPX — we do this to help other riders expand their horizons, and if you ride it without entering then we organisers don't get a complete picture of how many riders have enjoyed the route, average ride times, etc., and we also don't get the organiser points (not that they are worth anything except a warm fuzzy feeling at the end of the year).

... (due to not enough notice for entering)

Nonsense!  I have riders enter the night before and they use the routesheet (available from the website, but I email it to late-entrants to make sure they have it) to identify the controls, collect proofs of passage and then return the brevet and receipts when it catches up with them a couple of days later.  I've even been known to hand-deliver the brevet to local riders at a pinch, and in one instance timed my own ride to intersect with a group in the middle of Suffolk to hand over a brevet to a late entrant     They're happy and I'm happy 

[pangolin]

The reason is that I might want to just ride one without actually entering

I suspect this will not help your case for more informative event pages one bit.

[Aunt Maud]

Why don't you just make up your own route ?

[JamieD]

The reason is that I might want to just ride one without actually entering

I suspect this will not help your case for more informative event pages one bit.

That's a rather old fashioned idea in the days of people sharing routes on things like RideWithGPS. The idea that you have to pass a series of tests (well one) to get the route when pages says things like "entries must be submitted 4 weeks in advance" does put people off (well it put me off).

I've ridden the LDD route with friends with slight changes before just because it's a nice route. In my mind finding a perm and modifying it slightly so it goes past my house means I've found a good route I can follow and use for training. At that point I'm not bothered about brevet cards and controls, I just want a day out riding on a route I think will be better than one I made myself. This applies in my case to 200s which I think are a perfect length for a nice day out but I don't always want the (small) cost of getting a brevet card and the effort of controls.

[pangolin]

At that point I'm not bothered about brevet cards and controls, I just want a day out riding on a route I think will be better than one I made myself. This applies in my case to 200s which I think are a perfect length for a nice day out but I don't always want the (small) cost of getting a brevet card and the effort of controls.

But then at that point they have no obligation to make things easy for you whatsoever.

I'm not defending the vague events, I'd much prefer them to be more informative. But you are very much asking for something for nothing.

[JamieD]

But then at that point they have no obligation to make things easy for you whatsoever.

I'm not defending the vague events, I'd much prefer them to be more informative. But you are very much asking for something for nothing.

Not really though. I've paid my Audax UK subscription which pays for infrastructure. The GPX files doesn't need to be created fresh each time, that's a one off thing.

From what I can see the entry free pays for the validation and possibly any extra advice, information that might affect you on the day. Using something which already exists but is just not being made available isn't that unreasonable.

From what I can see CamAudax and some others have a much more modern, friendly and sharing approach with making information available freely on their websites. In much the same way most cycling clubs will freely share their routes for members and non-members because in the end it's about riding your bike.

[Aunt Maud]

I think Wilkyboy has made it quite clear that he expects you to ....well, cough up some spons.


I'll add: That it would be good discipline training for you to visit all the controls, get the POP, look after your brevet and organise yourself properly. You'll find after a while it becomes second nature and will make LEL that bit easier.

[Cudzoziemiec]

There are any number of sites such as cycle.travel and strava where you can find routes of x km from place N for free. cycle.travel even shows cafes and pubs you could use, if you wanted, as controls! (I expect Strava does too, but I'm not so familiar with it as a routing tool.)

[wilkyboy]

Not really though. I've paid my Audax UK subscription which pays for infrastructure. The GPX files doesn't need to be created fresh each time, that's a one off thing.

Your AUK subscription pays for the overarching administration of validation and points recording.  It also provides a rules framework and insurance as well as access to PBP.  You get a quarterly magazine, too.

Your AUK subscription does NOT in any way pay for the setup and running of any events — organisers pay for that out of their own pockets.  Organisers spend their own money to register and set up an event — both permanent and calendar events — and to buy the brevets off AUK, even before a single rider enters.  Add on the cost of registering domain names, web hosting (if you don't already have some) and possibly running a second email address and these running costs have to be covered, too, even before anyone enters the event.  The only way to reclaim that investment is to sell the brevets to riders.

If riders only ever take the free option then organisers are left with a drawer full of unused brevets, a hole in their wallet and an empty ride-entries list on AUK, which would then raise the question of why organisers would bother in the first place?  I have always been clear that I hoped there were local riders who would find something to challenge themselves with, and I have been delighted with the numbers who have entered the perms and calendar events I run from Cambridge — if they all took the free option, I wouldn't know this and would stop doing it.

We're not talking big money — but the point is that it's not your money to spend on the behalf of the organiser just so that you can get a free GPX file.

I think Wilkyboy has made it quite clear that he expects you to ....well, cough up some spons.

Aye, or Mrs W will start asking questions 


PS I don't think any organisers are in it for the money, just to cover their costs.  Many orgs donate any surplus at the end of the year to a cause of their choosing.  Some orgs will be a few quid out of pocket, but happy to have helped riders get out on their bikes and enjoy themselves.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

I've put a list of controls on each of the Cambrian Series rides and set up a link to an approximate route map with a Google Maps link.  This is a bit of a hostage to fortune as ever since the upgrade downgrade to Doogle Maps a couple of years ago I've found it somewhat unreliable and I get messages now going "the XYZ route doesn't go through Ruthin!", which it didn't when I put the link up but it does now, but I'm trying my best with the technology at my disposal.  (It took a *&**&^ long time to try to bend Google Maps into the right routes in the first place too)

As Tomsk upthread suggested - if in doubt email the organiser.   I can't speak for all but I'm happy to answer questions about the rides and provide info (especially on the longer ones) about the route, its particular challenges, and any useful ride info (like there is a cafe in Lampeter that opens at 7am on weekdays and a 24-hour petrol station west of Carmarthen on the A40 on the Fishguard - Carmarthen leg. 

I appreciate its not super-slick but I hope its helpful.  I guess at some point I'll have to get out of Dark Ages and set up some gpx files, or perhaps I could hand over organsing the Cambrian Permanents to someone who wants to set up about 10,000km of GPX tracks 

[JamieD]

If riders only ever take the free option then organisers are left with a drawer full of unused brevets

That's a pretty big if. So far in my short audax career I've paid for 6 calendar events (completed 5) and will probably end up entering a calendar event most months. Considering how most people seem quite keen on getting rides validated I can't imagine you'd see an huge number of people suddenly riding perms for free (or god forbid, part of them).

I started off from the position of being confused at why there was so little information about some perms and have been left with the feeling that there are two types of perms

* Perms run by people who want them to be ridden by everyone and make it easy for people to decide if they want to enter
* Perms run by people who want them to be for a special club

I know the second point is a rather large overstatement but comments like "if you ask around here [an unofficial forum] people may tell you about the route" and not even listing the controls don't exactly make it look like some of the organisers want the route to be ridden.

[Phil W]

It's simple, you want to ride a perm, you pay and enter it.   Most organisers are flexible enough that you can decide the day you want to ride at short notice. Just get in touch with them.   Rule number 1, don't take the piss.

I've ridden a couple of Wilkyboy's perms and I wouldn't even dream of doing it without entering.

[JamieD]

It's simple, you want to ride a perm, you pay and enter it.   Most organisers are flexible enough that you can decide the day you want to ride at short notice. Just get in touch with them.   Rule number 1, don't take the piss.

I've ridden a couple of Wilkyboy's perms and I wouldn't even dream of doing it without entering.

I think you're really missing the point here, it's not about paying it's the lack of information and attitude shown. There are quite a few perms where there is so little information that it's impossible to decide if you want to ride it without contacting the organiser. That puts it into my category of "perms for the special club". It's not welcoming and creates an extra level of work for the organiser who now has to respond to someone who may or may not do the perm.

[Wycombewheeler]

It's simple, you want to ride a perm, you pay and enter it.   Most organisers are flexible enough that you can decide the day you want to ride at short notice. Just get in touch with them.   Rule number 1, don't take the piss.

I've ridden a couple of Wilkyboy's perms and I wouldn't even dream of doing it without entering.

I think you're really missing the point here, it's not about paying it's the lack of information and attitude shown. There are quite a few perms where there is so little information that it's impossible to decide if you want to ride it without contacting the organiser. That puts it into my category of "perms for the special club". It's not welcoming and creates an extra level of work for the organiser who now has to respond to someone who may or may not do the perm.

Even more basic than that; how do I choose which perm to enter? If I don't even know which ones are within 100 miles of me.