Author Topic: [HAMR] More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)  (Read 75069 times)

Chris S

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #150 on: 15 January, 2016, 04:33:11 pm »


I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble". To me, cycling needs to be either useful (transport), competitive (racing, effectively as possible, like Kurt), or enjoyable (leisure). Long distance cycling that doesn't fulfill one of those 3 would still seem to be worthwhile purely for the sake of it to some people as it is deemed 'noble'. I worry that  Steve might be falling into this category.

Lots of assumptions there, including the idea that Steve isn't enjoying himself.  I'll bet you that, when he finishes this, he'll relax by going for a bike ride.

Indeed. His words just last night: "When I'm done with this, I'd like to do some simple touring."

Ben T

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #151 on: 15 January, 2016, 04:38:30 pm »
Audax cycling doesn't get you fit eh? Well I hell of a lot unfitter now I don't do it.

It may not get you as fit, or fit as quickly, as 'proper' training but it still does something.

it might get you "good at audax cycling".

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #152 on: 15 January, 2016, 04:39:46 pm »
Audax cycling doesn't get you fit eh? Well I hell of a lot unfitter now I don't do it.

It may not get you as fit, or fit as quickly, as 'proper' training but it still does something.

it might get you "good at audax cycling".
What's your definition of 'fit'?

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #153 on: 15 January, 2016, 04:45:52 pm »
Audax cycling doesn't get you fit eh? Well I hell of a lot unfitter now I don't do it.

It may not get you as fit, or fit as quickly, as 'proper' training but it still does something.

it might get you "good at audax cycling".
What's your definition of 'fit'?

fit for nothing?

In my case anyway

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #154 on: 15 January, 2016, 04:48:14 pm »
Quote from: Ben T link=topic=95268.msg1974165#msg1974165 date=1452862062
[/quote

Do they think cycling gets you fit? Apart from intense, short hill reps/sprints, it doesn't. Audax cycling certainly doesn't get you fit.

Quote of the weeeeeeek ;D.
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Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #155 on: 15 January, 2016, 04:49:21 pm »
I always found Audax to be excellent training. If you do turns on the flat, and you're heavy enough to find climbing difficult, what's a constant output for the average person becomes intervals, if you weigh more than 14 stone.
I did my best 10s 10 days after 600s.

Mr Larrington

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Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #156 on: 15 January, 2016, 05:14:14 pm »
It didn't do much for my performance in short races but keeping up in the longer ones was much less like hard work.  Anecdatally, looking over Mr Setter's shoulder during two hours of pounding round Castle Combe had me revving about 20 bpm less than him, though the bugger still outsprant me in the final furlong, it being slightly uphill if you use the circuit widdershins like we did that year.
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simonp

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #157 on: 15 January, 2016, 05:33:06 pm »
Base training is traditionally done at a moderate intensity. Spring last year the vast majority of my training was basically riding Audax. My functional threshold increased by 30W and my fat burning percentage doubled.

red marley

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #158 on: 15 January, 2016, 05:38:50 pm »
I'm starting to believe it would actually be impossible to do it without either an Alicia, OR, a team that rides with you for a lot of the time like Godwin had. Both would be better, but I think one or the other is essential.

I can hear CitizenFish gnashing his teeth from here. This appears to be one of those zombie factoids that cannot be killed, however many times it is refuted. My understanding is that there is no evidence or even a hint of evidence that Tommy Godwin had a team that rode with him. He had, for a while, road support in terms of encouragement, but not active drafting nor others riding with him to pace him. Much closer to Alicia in the van shouting at Kurt to get back on the bike when he wanted to have longer rest breaks than, say Bruce riding with Astana, Katusha or Sky or some imagined pace line of 1930s pros.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #159 on: 15 January, 2016, 05:39:10 pm »
Base training is traditionally done at a moderate intensity. Spring last year the vast majority of my training was basically riding Audax. My functional threshold increased by 30W and my fat burning percentage doubled.

was that training at constant HR or constant speed?

The former is of course a progressive method where as you get fitter you go faster.  I've done it for years for both running and cycling, but it takes discipline.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #160 on: 15 January, 2016, 05:56:02 pm »
I'm starting to believe it would actually be impossible to do it without either an Alicia, OR, a team that rides with you for a lot of the time like Godwin had. Both would be better, but I think one or the other is essential.

I can hear CitizenFish gnashing his teeth from here. This appears to be one of those zombie factoids that cannot be killed, however many times it is refuted. My understanding is that there is no evidence or even a hint of evidence that Tommy Godwin had a team that rode with him. He had, for a while, road support in terms of encouragement, but not active drafting nor others riding with him to pace him. Much closer to Alicia in the van shouting at Kurt to get back on the bike when he wanted to have longer rest breaks than, say Bruce riding with Astana, Katusha or Sky or some imagined pace line of 1930s pros.

He can gnash his teeth all he likes.

Quote
The final and most enduring (unbeaten to date) record set on an RRA was that by 27-year-old Tommy Godwin who established the all-time total of 75,065 miles ridden in a single year. Setting out on a Ley TG Special (with a Reynolds 531 frame) bicycle with a four-speed Cyclo derailleur on 1 January 1939, the demands of the ride proved too much for Ley, a small independent cycle company and on 27 May Raleigh-Sturmey Archer assumed sponsorship with Godwin being provided with a new 21" RRA in special ivory livery fitted with AF hub, 27" sprint rims and tyres, Brooks B17 Flyer saddle and, at times, with the new GH8 Dynohub. He also rode a conventionally black-painted RRA at times.

In addition to running with the AF hub, Godwin also used the new medium-ratio four-speed FM hub starting in October. It was claimed that his average daily mileage increased by 33½ per cent from 156 to 200 using the four-speed hubs. It should be noted that Godwin used an AF hub from March-May on his Ley as well and went from a 155.7-mile average in February to 178.6 in March with the new gear.

Godwin's RRA was probably heavier than his Reynolds 531 Ley but it was the support that Raleigh provided in terms of a manager (Charlie Davey), pacers and limitless technical and parts assistance that made the difference. Raleigh's promotional assets thrust Godwin's efforts into the media spotlight as they hitherto had not been. He was the best advertisement Raleigh/Sturmey-Archer could wish for and posters, postcards and dealer displays flooded the cycle world. As late as 1955, Raleigh touted that a "prototype of the Super Lenton" (sic) was used in the effort.

http://www.ipernity.com/blog/286349/633421

simonp

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #161 on: 15 January, 2016, 05:58:01 pm »
Base training is traditionally done at a moderate intensity. Spring last year the vast majority of my training was basically riding Audax. My functional threshold increased by 30W and my fat burning percentage doubled.

was that training at constant HR or constant speed?

The former is of course a progressive method where as you get fitter you go faster.  I've done it for years for both running and cycling, but it takes discipline.

Constant HR (within reason). I was trying to keep my HR below 140. I was riding fixed, and sometimes on hilly events it would be in the 180s. I was not stopping for long at controls, generally not eating their food, and instead eating home made rice cakes (as per the recipe used by Team Sky) while riding. This approach kept my rolling average down, around 22kph, rather than the slightly higher average I'd usually aim for. As I tended to spend less time stopped, my time around events was roughly similar to my previous approach which was to ride harder and require more feeding.

I got hold of an electronic trainer in early summer and did an 8-week build programme from then until just before PBP, so adding in a lot of higher intensity work, while still riding longer events. My FTP only increased by an additional 10W over and above what I'd achieved by riding Audax. However, my fat burning at moderate intensity actually got a bit worse, though it was still better than it had been in February.

This winter as I have the trainer, I'm trying something different and using a mixture of sweet-spot and base-level work. It will be building on last year's work. However, I don't think I'm markedly fitter than I was in June having just done virtually nothing but Audax riding.

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #162 on: 15 January, 2016, 06:12:33 pm »
I'm starting to believe it would actually be impossible to do it without either an Alicia, OR, a team that rides with you for a lot of the time like Godwin had. Both would be better, but I think one or the other is essential.

I can hear CitizenFish gnashing his teeth from here. This appears to be one of those zombie factoids that cannot be killed, however many times it is refuted. My understanding is that there is no evidence or even a hint of evidence that Tommy Godwin had a team that rode with him. He had, for a while, road support in terms of encouragement, but not active drafting nor others riding with him to pace him. Much closer to Alicia in the van shouting at Kurt to get back on the bike when he wanted to have longer rest breaks than, say Bruce riding with Astana, Katusha or Sky or some imagined pace line of 1930s pros.

He can gnash his teeth all he likes.

Quote
The final and most enduring (unbeaten to date) record set on an RRA was that by 27-year-old Tommy Godwin who established the all-time total of 75,065 miles ridden in a single year. Setting out on a Ley TG Special (with a Reynolds 531 frame) bicycle with a four-speed Cyclo derailleur on 1 January 1939, the demands of the ride proved too much for Ley, a small independent cycle company and on 27 May Raleigh-Sturmey Archer assumed sponsorship with Godwin being provided with a new 21" RRA in special ivory livery fitted with AF hub, 27" sprint rims and tyres, Brooks B17 Flyer saddle and, at times, with the new GH8 Dynohub. He also rode a conventionally black-painted RRA at times.

In addition to running with the AF hub, Godwin also used the new medium-ratio four-speed FM hub starting in October. It was claimed that his average daily mileage increased by 33½ per cent from 156 to 200 using the four-speed hubs. It should be noted that Godwin used an AF hub from March-May on his Ley as well and went from a 155.7-mile average in February to 178.6 in March with the new gear.

Godwin's RRA was probably heavier than his Reynolds 531 Ley but it was the support that Raleigh provided in terms of a manager (Charlie Davey), pacers and limitless technical and parts assistance that made the difference. Raleigh's promotional assets thrust Godwin's efforts into the media spotlight as they hitherto had not been. He was the best advertisement Raleigh/Sturmey-Archer could wish for and posters, postcards and dealer displays flooded the cycle world. As late as 1955, Raleigh touted that a "prototype of the Super Lenton" (sic) was used in the effort.

http://www.ipernity.com/blog/286349/633421

That just looks like a repetition of the zombie factoid, not a contemporary report or even a quote.
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Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #163 on: 15 January, 2016, 06:16:26 pm »
There are contemporary reports of the agreement with the rival team to withdraw pacing, in view of the expense. The article predates any record attempt, with its attendant propoganda.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #164 on: 15 January, 2016, 06:25:21 pm »

I worry there is a perception that long distance cycling is somehow inherently "noble".


Why shouldn't some people perceive it as noble, and why worry about whether they do or not?

You can fit what Steve is doing into your "competitive" category: it is a race against time and it is a race against his own previous achievements, those of Tommy Godwin, and Kurt's recent year in the saddle. To achieve that, he will need to be "as effective as possible". That will take a different form to Kurt's method, of course.

Well I don't worry whether other people want to think that I suppose. But I don't see how long distance cycling , or even any cycling, is a good thing in and of itself - if it isn't enjoyable, and it isn't doing what it set out to achieve. Steve isn't doing it as effectively as possible otherwise he would be doing it in america. He could do it in an audax way on a raleigh, in america.

By 'noble' I mean they assume that because it's cycling, it *must* be good, even though it's neither enjoyable, getting from A to B, or achieving anything.
Do they think cycling gets you fit? Apart from intense, short hill reps/sprints, it doesn't. Audax cycling certainly doesn't get you fit.
[my bold]
Sergeant Plcuk seems to have it right.

"Steve isn't doing it as effectively as possible "
Neither did Kurt.

He rode in America cos he lived there!

Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #165 on: 15 January, 2016, 06:27:53 pm »
Kurt did it effectively enough to succeed.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #166 on: 15 January, 2016, 06:34:10 pm »
I dont see "effectively enough" anywhere in the discussion so far.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LMT

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #167 on: 15 January, 2016, 06:55:59 pm »
Currently at 114 miles, will this see vehicle transfers knocked on the head or is there a better way?

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #168 on: 15 January, 2016, 06:57:30 pm »
I give up Jo. Let the googlers convince themselves Godwin was accompanied by a team of chariots with a special vacuum creating machine in front of him. If that is what they believe pacing means......

There were not reports of withdrawing pacing due to expense. It was entirely due to the arms race of miles that ensued between Bennett and Godwin. But they will know that having read through the archives and cross referencing quotes/facts won't they?

But, for once and for all, the pacers were:-

Rene Menzies, on a motorbike shouting at Bennett to go faster and do more miles.
Charley Davey in a car shouting at Godwin to go faster and do more miles.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #169 on: 15 January, 2016, 07:07:08 pm »
I dont see "effectively enough" anywhere in the discussion so far.

The facts speak for themselves.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

LMT

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #170 on: 15 January, 2016, 07:07:38 pm »
I give up Jo. Let the googlers convince themselves Godwin was accompanied by a team of chariots with a special vacuum creating machine in front of him. If that is what they believe pacing means......

There were not reports of withdrawing pacing due to expense. It was entirely due to the arms race of miles that ensued between Bennett and Godwin. But they will know that having read through the archives and cross referencing quotes/facts won't they?

But, for once and for all, the pacers were:-

Rene Menzies, on a motorbike shouting at Bennett to go faster and do more miles.
Charley Davey in a car shouting at Godwin to go faster and do more miles.

Wow, I must confess to being one of the those who thought that Godwin drafted. If this is not the case (of which I admit I'm ignorant of) then those miles and days that he done during the summer were and are truly mind boggling.


Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #171 on: 15 January, 2016, 07:12:21 pm »
Some think that Tommy's ride invalidates Kurt's ride by reason of its purity. I think that Kurt's ride validates Tommy's ride, which in the absence of any explanation looks very suspect. If there were no pacers I find it dubious that there is a sudden 20% jump. Raleigh must have thought so, or they wouldn't have come up with their ludicrous assertion that a four-speed gear makes you go a third further than a three-speed one.


Bianchi Boy

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Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #172 on: 15 January, 2016, 07:16:07 pm »
I have never seen an advert that lied before  8)
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #173 on: 15 January, 2016, 07:16:51 pm »
There were pacers. But these pacers were two men doing everything to make sure their guys rode more miles for more hours. This is different from a team of riders that the two men drafted behind. This is what people fail to understand.

Godwin's pacing is totally explainable. You like Google, look up Charlie Davey. The man was an animal on the bike and an unbelievable task master off it. He goaded Godwin on following him around in a car, sorting his food and lodgings and fixing his bikes.  He would drive him to exhaustion whilst keeping an eye on his rival. THAT is pacing. And it was that which stopped after mutual agreement.

LMT

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #174 on: 15 January, 2016, 07:20:29 pm »
Cool, that rings a bell when reading about the modern day cyclists who do RAAM. That cyclists do exactly this, cycle. Whilst the team around them sorts everything else out and motivates them to ride harder and harder.