[HAMR] More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)

[Hummers]

I just find it extraordinary that Godwin's mileage outside the summer period was so modest.  You'd have thought that if he was of such a calibre that he was able to knock out 300-mile plus days routinely in the summer, then he should have been capable of much larger distances - particularly in the spring. 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that in an age when it was possible to get opium over the counter, perhaps Tommy the vegetarian wouldn't have passed a urine test.

You're just taking the piss now 

H

[Citizenfish]

Citizenfish, have you chatted much with Tony Hadland? He is a good bloke, wrote detailed histories of both Raleigh and Sturmey and has had extensive access to their company files.

Not personally but I bought his Raleigh book and read it cover to cover. I was trying to track down another zombie factoid that Godwin went to Ireland. Found nothing at all in the Raleigh Archives after days of hunting, only one tiny mention in bicycle magazine that I do not trust.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Holland_(cyclist)

There are some interesting names in that piece.
Holland was in the 1932 Olympic British pursuit team (3rd) and Nino Bosari was in the winning Italian team. I think that Nino later moved to Australia.

Edit- http://www.borsaricycles.com.au/our-heritage I thought the name was familiar. He was a huge influence on Australian cycling.

Holland won the first Manx mass start race in 1936, beating Bill Messer of Marlboro AC. HK's first cycling club was the Marlboro and there are still strong family ties.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Citizenfish, have you chatted much with Tony Hadland? He is a good bloke, wrote detailed histories of both Raleigh and Sturmey and has had extensive access to their company files.

Not personally but I bought his Raleigh book and read it cover to cover. I was trying to track down another zombie factoid that Godwin went to Ireland. Found nothing at all in the Raleigh Archives after days of hunting, only one tiny mention in bicycle magazine that I do not trust.

I strongly suggest you contact him. He is very helpful and assisted Steve in getting Raleigh sponsorship. Tony chased Raleigh documents within Ireland as part of his research and said that he had to cut his findings in half to avoid producing a doorstop.
https://hadland.wordpress.com/

[Exit Stage Left]

Charlie Holland is the Raleigh pro with the most enduring legacy.

It's becoming less important by the day to determine the exact methods that Raleigh employed to get the year record. It only mattered in terms of creating a space for Steve to adopt other methods while conforming to a 'British' ethos. It's pretty clear that Steve is going to carry on largely in his own way.

I'll be interested in how far he gets, but the time of opportunity has passed.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

It's pretty clear that Steve is going to carry on largely in his own way.

I'll be interested in how far he gets, but the time of opportunity has passed.

Yes. Not much else to be said really.

[aoxomoxoa]

It's pretty clear that Steve is going to carry on largely in his own way.

I'll be interested in how far he gets, but the time of opportunity has passed.

Yes. Not much else to be said really.

True, but that won't stop a lot of people saying it anyway 

[Ningishzidda]

The internet myth (zombie factoid) is that they got up, sat behind a team of riders for 12 hours 365 days a year and then went home for a bath. This myth fails to explain where these rides came from? Who these "teams" were given that the industry in the main sponsored individuals and road racing did not exit in the UK. Who paid them given that Raleigh's accounts show no payments? And if they were not paid how these men were recruited as the press at the time shows nothing? And I've found nothing in the National Cycling archive when going through club/RTTC records etc.. of 1939?

I suggest you research Charles Holland, Bert James and Sid Ferris. Holland's call-up in September 1939 coincides with the withdrawal of pacing.

1938 was the year Holland attempted professional place-to-place records on the road, at that time the only way that a professional rider could publicise his sponsor, there still being no massed racing on the road and professionals not being allowed to ride amateur time-trials. In June, riding for Raleigh/Sturmey-Archer, Holland broke his first Road Records Association (RRA) record, knocking 12 minutes off the time of his rival, Frank Southall, for Liverpool to Edinburgh, completing the 210 miles in 10 hours.

In August he narrowly beat the record for Land's End to London but it was not accepted as a new RRA record because it did not improve on the old one by more than a minute. Two months later, he completed the 287 miles from Land's End to London again, racing at 21 mph through hours of rain and suffering four punctures but, knocking 25 minutes off the record.

Holland's professional career ended when Britain declared war on Germany in 1939. He was called up to join the Royal Corps of Signals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Holland_(cyclist)#Road_records

Stuff about Charlie Holland can be got from the Secretary of the Midland Cycling and Athletic Club.
There's a couple of members left who knew him personally.
John Pottier for one.

[redfalo]

First of all, @citizenfish, I have to say that your book on the history of the year record (https://www.v-publishing.co.uk/books/categories/biographies/the-year.html) is really fascinating and impressive. I have just finished it and an in awe of the riders as well as your work.

I cannot stress enough the importance of BALANCE when looking into this history. Random snippets of internet do not tell the full story. Reading across the entire press of the time, the Raleigh archives and accounts(searching for payments) and family interviews give a broader view of what actually happened. This is what it took me years to get to the bottom of it, not ten minutes of internet search and a bit of cut and paste. The real story shows two riders fighting each other for miles using  everything from sleep deprivation to drafting to get them, both goaded on by their relative team managers. THIS is what pacing means. The final judgement on ending it specifically mentioned the team managers retreating.

The internet myth (zombie factoid) is that they got up, sat behind a team of riders for 12 hours 365 days a year and then went home for a bath. This myth fails to explain where these rides came from? Who these "teams" were given that the industry in the main sponsored individuals and road racing did not exit in the UK. Who paid them given that Raleigh's accounts show no payments? And if they were not paid how these men were recruited as the press at the time shows nothing? And I've found nothing in the National Cycling archive when going through club/RTTC records etc.. of 1939?

Secondly, I find it really striking how little we know what really happened in those crucial summer months of 1939 despite all that hard work. If there really was no team of paid cyclists or organised motor vehicles used to break the wind for Tommy Godwin (that's how I would intuitively understand the concept of "pacing"), the big question really is how he managed to crank out these incredible miles.

Sleep deprivation IMHO can only be part of the explanation, but I find it hard to believe that this in itself made the difference, as he had already four to five month with long rides and relatively little sleep in his legs when the crazy months started.

The black box between June and August, where Tommy rode 255, 277 and 238 miles per day respectively, also puts Steve's perfornace into perspective, and highlights Kurt's achievement. A back of the envelope calculation shows: if you assume Tommy had ridden daily averages of 215 miles in June, July and August (16 percent less than he actually did, but still 20 percent more than on an average day between January an May), his yearly milage had come down to 71235 miles.

Further assuming that Steve had not been hit by a moped and had been able to increase his daily average to 200 miles in April and May, 215 in June to August, 200 in September and October and 180 in December, his annual milage had been about 73000. That's 1800 miles higher than Tommy without his super-human summer, but still 3000 miles below Kurt, who achieved his mileage without these crazy days in the summer.

That's only 4 percent less than Kurt, but getting this last extra uptick in mileage probably takes a disproportionately large amount of extra effort, in particular due to the need to sleep. Maybe that's the difference between hilly England and flat Florida, having a camper van and Alicia or not.

[mattc]

Perhaps he was pacing himself in the first 5 months? Just doing enough, getting decent sleep/recovery. Then his coach/manager/whatever persuaded him to really go for it in the nicer weather (compounded by the "race" against the other fella).
Perhaps (perhaps perhaps!) it really took it out of him; another 2 months at 238mpd might have killed him!

[Citizenfish]

Secondly, I find it really striking how little we know what really happened in those crucial summer months of 1939 despite all that hard work. If there really was no team of paid cyclists or organised motor vehicles used to break the wind for Tommy Godwin (that's how I would intuitively understand the concept of "pacing"), the big question really is how he managed to crank out these incredible miles.

This whole debate (is brilliant and) has made me go back and dig a lot further to try and get to the bottom of it. The mileage cards would have helped set the record straight but a Cycling Weekly insider of old told me they were more than likely binned during a massive skip session in the 90's. He was frantically pulling out classic old prints of Coppi....

The one recorded and witnessed day (HH England) was a 348. I have the splits here, scroll to the bottom.

http://phased.co.uk/tommy-godwin-faq/

Now, if he was sat for a long time behind riders I'd expect smoother splits. But there appears to be a series of elongated sprints then rests.  Almost like a weird kind of year record interval training!

The testament I do have from his friends tells of him being "bolloxed" most days, needing to be undressed and out to bed and also sleeping out on the job.  Now, if I could find Charlie Davey's diaries....

ps. Let's not forget young Bernard Bennett in all of this. He was riding 250 -270 days on the trot with a mad Frenchman chasing him on a motorbike. I suspect he sat behind it when opportunity allowed.

But one thing I must stress is that Bennett and Godwin gave up everything to ride the year and were fighting for their futures. This adds 10% in my mind as they HAD to get the record and the subsequent job + sponsorship.

[rafletcher]

The testament I do have from his friends tells of him being "bolloxed" most days,

Perhaps that's Steve's issue today.

[Exit Stage Left]

I remember reading that a paced day would consist of a series of 50 mile time trials, interspersed with cafe stops. I'm sure that was mentioned on here somewhere, but these things get to be circular.
That's what PBP consists of for many of the fast, but not over-serious participants. It finds a bit of an echo in the sort of riding that the likes of Andy Wilkinson leads in Majorca.

http://www.legrostrainingcamp.com/april_leader.php

Wilko is the nearest we have to the long distance record breakers of the 1930s. It's his opinion, and that of Gethin Butler that would be most valuable.

[Freya]

Now, if he was sat for a long time behind riders I'd expect smoother splits. But there appears to be a series of elongated sprints then rests.

While I defer to your greater knowledge & research (enjoyed the book as well) Couldn't that imply him following something for periods and then not having assistance. (For example making use of a passing vehicle or having a rider whose stamina is used up hence the need for a rest) I'm not saying that this is the case, but as you say, what actually happened has to be inferred from limited data.

[Citizenfish]

Now, if he was sat for a long time behind riders I'd expect smoother splits. But there appears to be a series of elongated sprints then rests.

While I defer to your greater knowledge & research (enjoyed the book as well) Couldn't that imply him following something for periods and then not having assistance. (For example making use of a passing vehicle or having a rider whose stamina is used up hence the need for a rest) I'm not saying that this is the case, but as you say, what actually happened has to be inferred from limited data.

It could and I think it is likely. The myth I am trying to dispel is that he rode behind a team of Raleigh warriors all day long.

[Exit Stage Left]

I think a likely scenario is that those riders engaged in testing bikes and components rode between cafes about 50miles part, having a tea break at regular intervals. Godwin may have ridden with them, and either had a break, or ridden on to post a card, coming back to rejoin the other rider, or riders, and so forth.
It would be interesting to see how that would fit with the data. The test riders might have worked an ordinary factory shift, apart from set-piece days.

But it's no longer relevant to the current attempt, it being too late for Steve to do something like that.

[Citizenfish]

I think a likely scenario is that those riders engaged in testing bikes and components rode between cafes about 50miles part, having a tea break at regular intervals. Godwin may have ridden with them, and either had a break, or ridden on to post a card, coming back to rejoin the other rider, or riders, and so forth.
It would be interesting to see how that would fit with the data. The test riders might have worked an ordinary factory shift, apart from set-piece days.

But it's no longer relevant to the current attempt, it being too late for Steve to do something like that.

Problem is Raleigh were in Nottingham, Godwin rode further south in the London/Hemel Hempstead area. I don't think this theory fits with the fact that he was based in Rickmansworth. One thing it is worth looking at is if there were weekend peaks when club riders could have helped. Godwin himself stated that he was able to manage on 40 hours of sleep a week.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Didn't Godwin have strong connections with Stoke, riding through parts of the Midlands too?

[Citizenfish]

Yes, but mainly based in Rickmansworth for the attempt as he specifically mentioned his landlady in an interview afterwards as being one of the main helpers.

I think the route between the two towns would have been his "Marsh Gibbon"

[hillbilly]

Has Tommy Godwin come back to life and is shuffling around the UK in an attempt on the record?
Have we time travelled?
Do I have a different understanding of the word "current"?
Am I a dinosaur?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

This discussion has developed because some folk wanted Steve and his team to realise that Tommy didn't only ride 'alone and unsupported'. Steve isn't going to get the record in this attempt and it is too late to change that now, regardless of approach.

Pursuing the discussion a little further might help Citizenfish's second edition. His book is the closest thing we have to a unified listing and analysis of the year record. More examination of methods, successful and otherwise, might assist future attempts.

[Exit Stage Left]

Audax is dinosaur cycling. Its principal event dates from 1891, and there were a couple of Italians this time celebrating that. Drew Buck rode a 1936 Raleigh Ace in homage to Tommy Godwin, and wore a replica record jersey. Posters constantly invoke Tommy to do down contemporary riders. We're just engaging in a little palaeontology.

Sid Ferris did some testing of the 4 speed hub.

The RRA/Sid Ferris Era ended in early 1939 with his testing of the new Sturmey-Archer four-speed AF hub (essentially an AR hub with an extra low gear for mass start racing and hills) over some 3,000 miles covered weekly trial runs between London and Nottingham by Ferris prior to its introduction in April. By then, Raleigh boasted it held nine of Britain's 15 road records totally over 3,500 miles of the 4,650 total.

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/286349/15639925

I'd be interested to know where that bloke got his information. I'm curious how Raleigh did their development work. I'm imagining it was like Triumph motorcycles, and the long distance riders carried out a number of tasks like Percy Tait did at Meriden.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Tait

[LittleWheelsandBig]

That sounds right ESL. A few Moulton employees from the '50s onwards regularly rode prototype bikes, components and tyres significant distances and following specific protocols to 'improve the breed.' I expect that Raleigh did much the same thing between the wars.

Bruce Small certainly analysed upcoming record attempts and races quite comprehensively to find potential advantages for Oppy and no doubt for his other riders.

[red marley]

I realise there were mixed views on the wisdom of Steve continuing on his Aug-Aug record attempt, but to me, one of the more compelling reasons to continue was the likelihood that Bruce might have pushed a record attempt from Steve restarting in 2017 beyond reach for the type of riding Steve prefers. I wonder now given (a) some more lost miles from Steve and (b) shenanigans with Bruce's validation, that that argument no longer applies.

[Greenbank]

I wonder now given (a) some more lost miles from Steve and (b) shenanigans with Bruce's validation, that that argument no longer applies.

Good point, although there's always a risk that a new contender (or even LazaBruce) will start a new attempt (under the UMCA) before Steve regroups and restarts.