Author Topic: [HAMR] More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)  (Read 76068 times)

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #400 on: 21 January, 2016, 12:38:21 pm »
Good point Jo.  I hadn't thought of it that way - his current attempt could have secured the record (providing he beat Kurt's total) for at least 4 months, even if Bruce were to surpass it at the end of 2016.
The sound of one pannier flapping

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #401 on: 21 January, 2016, 12:41:40 pm »
I think the argument still applies while Bruce has some form of claim on a record attempts. I would take a communication from Guiness to say they aren't going to validate to stop that. In the eyes of the greater world at large, Guiness trumps UMCA.

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #402 on: 21 January, 2016, 12:45:09 pm »
Guinness.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #403 on: 21 January, 2016, 12:46:10 pm »
Worth remembering no one owns the record.

It is not like Wimbledon or the golf Open where a competitor has to be under the respective club's rules to compete.

If Bruce - or anyone - can establish they've done the miles, it doesn't matter how they do it.

Wowbagger

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TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #406 on: 21 January, 2016, 01:43:04 pm »
Worth remembering no one owns the record.

It is not like Wimbledon or the golf Open where a competitor has to be under the respective club's rules to compete.

If Bruce - or anyone - can establish they've done the miles, it doesn't matter how they do it.


Actually, I think it does. It's not sufficient to simply claim that you've done the miles, and Strava isn't sufficiently secure to be considered a safe verification. If I ride a long ride and wish to boast to my mates, it's fine - it really doesn't matter whether the Strava record is accurate or even real; that's between me and them. But if one wants to set a benchmark and have it regarded as something on which others can rely - and which can be used as a target by future competitors - it's surely an obligation to ensure that the record set is verified by an authority that observers can trust, and that the distance was not just ridden but that it was ridden within a set of agreed criteria. That's why we have recording and administration organisations.

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #407 on: 21 January, 2016, 01:51:55 pm »
Worth remembering no one owns the record.

It is not like Wimbledon or the golf Open where a competitor has to be under the respective club's rules to compete.

If Bruce - or anyone - can establish they've done the miles, it doesn't matter how they do it.

- it's surely an obligation to ensure that the record set is verified by an authority that observers can trust, and that the distance was not just ridden but that it was ridden within a set of agreed criteria. That's why we have recording and administration organisations.

I think the only obligation is to ensure the record is verified in a way observers can trust.

My earlier remark about Tommy not using trackers was slightly misinterpreted, but he managed to set an accepted record without computerised trackers or the UMCA.

It's a matter for you if the UMCA is the only verification you trust, but I believe there are other ways to set a trusted record.

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #408 on: 21 January, 2016, 01:53:12 pm »
Simply uploading to Strava and claiming you have a Guinness record seems to be quite a successful method.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #409 on: 21 January, 2016, 02:20:15 pm »
Worth remembering no one owns the record.

It is not like Wimbledon or the golf Open where a competitor has to be under the respective club's rules to compete.

If Bruce - or anyone - can establish they've done the miles, it doesn't matter how they do it.

- it's surely an obligation to ensure that the record set is verified by an authority that observers can trust, and that the distance was not just ridden but that it was ridden within a set of agreed criteria. That's why we have recording and administration organisations.

I think the only obligation is to ensure the record is verified in a way observers can trust.

My earlier remark about Tommy not using trackers was slightly misinterpreted, but he managed to set an accepted record without computerised trackers or the UMCA.

It's a matter for you if the UMCA is the only verification you trust, but I believe there are other ways to set a trusted record.

Tommy utilised the highest technology available at the time. A Smiths Industries speedometer with odometer.
No-one could dispute the reading on the odometer unless they witnessed him getting on the train.

To set a HAM'R distance record today, the participant should utilise the highest technology available today. Any less and observers would suspect plans to cheat somehow.

The question arises however regarding Tommy's incredible distances during the summer months. IMHO, he drafted lorries. It is also my suspicion he held onto the lorries up hills.
Comparing Tommy's and Steves wintertime daily mileages, they are similar, if not up on the Steve side.

Drafting lorries was to reduce Cd ( windage ). If Steve employs a method of doing this ( riding a 'bent like Kurt ) he might get some incredible mileages in the summer and be in contention to achieve a record mileage.

Go Steve !

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #410 on: 21 January, 2016, 02:26:27 pm »
More importantly Tommy was getting witnesses to sign his mileage cards, and a random portion (no idea how many) of these witnesses were checked by Cycling.

Witness books are also the backup strategy for UMCA/HAMR if the live tracking or GPS recording goes awry. And if relied upon the riders only get the credited with the shortest distance between witness entries, which makes riding short circuits (e.g. MK bowl) unsuitable.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #411 on: 21 January, 2016, 02:47:09 pm »
The question arises however regarding Tommy's incredible distances during the summer months. IMHO, he drafted lorries. It is also my suspicion he held onto the lorries up hills.
It's my suspicion that you are a spotty 16-year old with an attention-seeking disorder.

But, hey, who needs proof to make accusations?
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #412 on: 21 January, 2016, 03:11:10 pm »
The question arises however regarding Tommy's incredible distances during the summer months. IMHO, he drafted lorries. It is also my suspicion he held onto the lorries up hills.
It's my suspicion that you are a spotty 16-year old with an attention-seeking disorder.

Ningi's way older than 16.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #413 on: 21 January, 2016, 03:12:15 pm »
The question arises however regarding Tommy's incredible distances during the summer months. IMHO, he drafted lorries. It is also my suspicion he held onto the lorries up hills.
It's my suspicion that you are a spotty 16-year old with an attention-seeking disorder.

But, hey, who needs proof to make accusations?

It's defence against accusations that the verification procedures are designed to avoid. As Ning said, Tommy used the best technology available at the time to verify his efforts. Yes, it's possible that he could have used techniques to make his riding more 'efficient'*, and so can any current wannabe record-holder, but it is incumbent upon them to make sure their achievement is properly documented so that, within reason, it can't be challenged and it sets a benchmark for the next participant. Anything else is just a ride.

*I'm not entering into speculation about lorries. I will say this, however. In the early 1960s, I used to go out with my Grandfather on his 1958 Commer coal lorry - a vehicle which, twenty years earlier, would have been subject to the 20mph limit. Fully loaded (about 10 tons, I think), it could make about 30mph on the flat, and was slower than most bicycles going up any significant rise. It may have offered a bit of shelter on the flat, but there's no way it would have offered any advantage (except a very slow rest) going uphill!

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #414 on: 21 January, 2016, 03:53:07 pm »

It's my suspicion that you are a spotty 16-year old with an attention-seeking disorder.

But, hey, who needs proof to make accusations?

Grossly unfair on those 16-year olds, or any teenager for that matter, who through no fault of their own suffer from 'spots' that can have a massive effect on how they are viewed and their own self confidence.

A very unfortunate example IMO.

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #415 on: 21 January, 2016, 05:05:04 pm »

It's my suspicion that you are a spotty 16-year old with an attention-seeking disorder.

But, hey, who needs proof to make accusations?

Grossly unfair on those 16-year olds, or any teenager for that matter, who through no fault of their own suffer from 'spots' that can have a massive effect on how they are viewed and their own self confidence.

A very unfortunate example IMO.
you are quite right and I apologise.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #416 on: 21 January, 2016, 08:45:04 pm »

Drafting lorries was to reduce Cd .
 

This is wrong as well.
Cd is a relative measure. Following in the low pressure area behind a truck (or other rider) helps you go faster because there's lower pressure and hence less air to move out of the way.
Reducing Cd means getting more aero: deep rims, no flappy clothing etc.
More aero could also include improving CdA by using tri-bars or flipped stem.


Kim

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Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #417 on: 21 January, 2016, 08:56:22 pm »
Cd is a relative measure. Following in the low pressure area behind a truck (or other rider) helps you go faster because there's lower pressure and hence less air to move out of the way.

Surely it's more a case of the air moving at about the same speed as the truck, so you don't have to move it yourself?

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #418 on: 21 January, 2016, 09:21:10 pm »
This is wrong as well.
Cd is a relative measure.

Blah blah blah....

No. You're wrong.

A Cd is a round plastic thing with music on.
You're only as successful as your last 1200...

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #419 on: 21 January, 2016, 09:53:20 pm »
Cd is a relative measure. Following in the low pressure area behind a truck (or other rider) helps you go faster because there's lower pressure and hence less air to move out of the way.

Surely it's more a case of the air moving at about the same speed as the truck, so you don't have to move it yourself?

Arse. My previous reply was lost by an interweb failure so I'll, try again.

I'd hate to get into a technical discussion with you Kim 'cos I'd invariably lose but, AIUI, any moving object creates an area of low pressure directly behind it because it's moved the air out of the way. To take advantage you have to be in the middle of the moving object and very close to it.
My 1st sentence stands  :).


Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #420 on: 22 January, 2016, 12:30:28 am »
Cd is a relative measure. Following in the low pressure area behind a truck (or other rider) helps you go faster because there's lower pressure and hence less air to move out of the way.

Surely it's more a case of the air moving at about the same speed as the truck, so you don't have to move it yourself?

Arse. My previous reply was lost by an interweb failure so I'll, try again.

I'd hate to get into a technical discussion with you Kim 'cos I'd invariably lose but, AIUI, any moving object creates an area of low pressure directly behind it because it's moved the air out of the way. To take advantage you have to be in the middle of the moving object and very close to it.
My 1st sentence stands  :).

Ok - let's use my long-distant Aeronautical Engineering degree to lay this out (and probably mis-remember stuff and lay myself open to ridicule).

The form drag of a body moving through a fluid is given by:

F = 1/2 r v2CdA

Where r = air density (I can't do rho here!)
v = velocity relative to the object
Cd is the drag coefficient
A is the cross-section or reference area of the body.

Therefore to reduce drag we can:
  • Reduce the relative velocity of the fluid
  • Reduce reference area
  • Reduce the density of the fluid
  • Reduce Cd

Drafting behind another body achieves 1 above - the air behind the body (cyclist, lorry, car...) is entrained behind it and is being dragged forward slightly and therefore relative to the cyclist is reduced.
Drafting might reduce density, but not much at all - it's really all about reducing relative fluid velocity.

An aero position achieves 2 above - the frontal area is reduced. The elongated shape of an aero rider also reduces the Cd.

Cycling at altitude reduces the density thus achieving 3 - but then we all know what happens when you try to exercise at altitude...

Wearing slippery clothes/aero helmets, deep rimmed wheels achieves 4 above by  - well - being slippery, and reducing eddies around the rims. Also fairing other stuff on the bike achieves this.

Footnote
There is, in fact another form of drag, namely induced drag - this is proportional to the lift produced by an aircraft's wings. What's that got to do with bikes? Well... in a crosswind, the bike and rider will produce 'lift' to one side - therefore a crosswind will produce some induced drag - and especially with those lovely deep rimmed wheels 'lifting' hard sideways. However, the advantage of the reduced Cd deep wheels give will outweigh the much lower induced drag.

Now back to the main topic of this thread.

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #421 on: 22 January, 2016, 06:53:42 am »
Transpose the equation to get Cd = blah, blah.

By doing this, the variables become arguments on the other side of the = .
Reduce one of the variable arguments and it reduces Cd.

If r is reduced to zero, as in Chester Kyle’s model of riding a bike on the moon, that r = zero effectively makes Cd = 0.

When drafting another vehicle, v is reduced. This will reduce the resultant value of Cd. See again Chester Kyle.

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #422 on: 22 January, 2016, 06:58:16 am »
My current thoughts on the record attempts ....

I'm glad Kurt is the record holder.  I'm glad the record was broken in a such a classy, open and quantifiable way.  He completely changed my view on him and everything I now read from the bloke makes me like him more.

As far as I can see Steve is no longer competing.   If this is the case then I hope he enjoys his new place in cycling history, reflects on an incredible achievement ..... And plots a new attempt.   Only if he wants it, and only if he spends at least a year enjoying himself first- and then trains for it for another year.   I haven't yet set a payment up because so far I do not see why he needs the money.    If he has now finished, I would like the team to tell us what his plans are because if he needs money to readjust, go on holiday, find a job .... Then that is when I would like to crowd fund him..... Unless there are untold resources in the bank?  Who knows?

I was really into Bruce and hugely exited about his chances ..... Now he's just a bloke on strava to me.    I can not understand why he has gone down this path?   It is completely baffling why he looks at Kurt and thinks "nah, that's too much hassle and money to adher to".....Maybe if he could show some evidence of the Guiness verification, or the rules he is competing under it may help me get on board?

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #423 on: 22 January, 2016, 08:00:02 am »
Transpose the equation to get Cd = blah, blah.

By doing this, the variables become arguments on the other side of the = .
Reduce one of the variable arguments and it reduces Cd.

If r is reduced to zero, as in Chester Kyle’s model of riding a bike on the moon, that r = zero effectively makes Cd = 0.

When drafting another vehicle, v is reduced. This will reduce the resultant value of Cd. See again Chester Kyle.

NO!  If you transpose the equation you get Cd = 2F / r v2A.  It is obvious that as r tends to zero (as in your beloved Chester Kyle's example of riding a bike on the moon) that Cd would tend to infinity for any value of F other than zero (in other words, for there to be any force at all with a very low density medium, you'd need a really unslippery object).

Re: More thoughts on the current record attempt(s)
« Reply #424 on: 22 January, 2016, 08:08:04 am »
Transpose the equation to get Cd = blah, blah.

By doing this, the variables become arguments on the other side of the = .
Reduce one of the variable arguments and it reduces Cd.

If r is reduced to zero, as in Chester Kyle’s model of riding a bike on the moon, that r = zero effectively makes Cd = 0.

When drafting another vehicle, v is reduced. This will reduce the resultant value of Cd. See again Chester Kyle.

No! Cd is constant for a body. If you change your posture, you are, in aerodynamic terms, changing the body. Drafting only reduces v (and density very slightly).

We may need another thread... (there's probably one already).