Tubeless for Dummies

[vorsprung]

I've made some new wheels, Son H+ and used a Stan's tubeless conversion kit on them.  Hutchinson Intensive 25mm are on.  All taping and goo adding was done by the book.  Actually by the youtube video.  Each tyre has "a cup" 60ml of white stuff in them

However, they don't seem able to hold 80 to 90 psi overnight.  They drop off to much less than this, 40 psi for one and 10 for the other.    Should I

a) put them on a bike and ride them about and keep pumping them up
b) add more white goo
c) put them somewhere cold/warm/damp/environmentally different to a garage
d) give up immediately and fit inner tubes
e) keep pumping them up and give them another couple of days ( they have done this since Saturday )

Update.  The wheels are on the bike and I have been riding it since Tuesday.  I have ridden to the station and back morning/evening everyday and to the pub on Weds night

On Tuesday, pumped both to 90 psi before leaving for station.  At station rear is less than rock hard.  Pump up in evening to get home.  At home both front and rear seem ok
Wednesday morning front and rear both seem ok (not rock hard but fine to ride) so just go to station.  Wednesday evening both still acceptable, ride back
Wednesday evening later both seem ok Ride to pub.  Pressure fine during this trip.
This morning (Thursday) check both front and rear with track pump pressure gauge.  Both are down to 60psi, pump up to 90

So I am still not happy but 60 psi is better than 40.  Hoping for further improvement

[Hot Flatus]

Maybe should have used tubeless ready rims. 

[vorsprung]

Maybe should have used tubeless ready rims.

Check out this article, which is the only thing I've seen anywhere that attempt to explain what a "road tubeless" rim is

http://wheelworks.co.nz/roadtubeless-vs-standard-rims/

Most of the advantages are to do with mounting, although the anti burping stuff might affect the maximum pressure obtainable

Here's the H Son Plus vs a Stan's Alpha 340



I note also that some sources claim that the maximum allowed pressure on a Alpha 340 is 90 psi

[PaulF]

I've made some new wheels, Son H+ and used a Stan's tubeless conversion kit on them.  Hutchinson Intensive 25mm are on.  All taping and goo adding was done by the book.  Actually by the youtube video.  Each tyre has "a cup" 60ml of white stuff in them

However, they don't seem able to hold 80 to 90 psi overnight.  They drop off to much less than this, 40 psi for one and 10 for the other.    Should I

a) put them on a bike and ride them about and keep pumping them up
b) add more white goo
c) put them somewhere cold/warm/damp/environmentally different to a garage
d) give up immediately and fit inner tubes
e) keep pumping them up and give them another couple of days ( they have done this since Saturday )

Update.  The wheels are on the bike and I have been riding it since Tuesday.  I have ridden to the station and back morning/evening everyday and to the pub on Weds night

On Tuesday, pumped both to 90 psi before leaving for station.  At station rear is less than rock hard.  Pump up in evening to get home.  At home both front and rear seem ok
Wednesday morning front and rear both seem ok (not rock hard but fine to ride) so just go to station.  Wednesday evening both still acceptable, ride back
Wednesday evening later both seem ok Ride to pub.  Pressure fine during this trip.
This morning check both front and rear with track pump pressure gauge.  Both are down to 60psi, pump up to 90

So I am still not happy but 60 psi is better than 40.  Hoping for further improvement

Probably worth adding some more Stans fluid and giving it a good shake. Sometimes they take a while to fully seal

[sojournermike]

Every time a non-racer rides on reduced spoke-count wheels, the ghost of Sheldon Brown kills a ghost-kitten, trufax

I don't see a point in going under 32 spokes for a general purpose, all weathers wheel. You gain very little and if just one spoke breaks, then the wheel might pringle. Less likely to happen with the CF rims though.

I know what you mean. My preference would be for good ole 36 spoke three cross, but they seem to be reserved for cheap mountain bikes and unsupported continental crossings

It's easy enough to get suitable parts to build into such a wheel, or Spa will do so for you also.

[Hot Flatus]

Maybe should have used tubeless ready rims.

Check out this article, which is the only thing I've seen anywhere that attempt to explain what a "road tubeless" rim is

http://wheelworks.co.nz/roadtubeless-vs-standard-rims/

Most of the advantages are to do with mounting, although the anti burping stuff might affect the maximum pressure obtainable

Here's the H Son Plus vs a Stan's Alpha 340



I note also that some sources claim that the maximum allowed pressure on a Alpha 340 is 90 psi

Small differences, big effect maybe?

I must admit I've only fitted a pair of tubeless tyres after converting a tubeless ready rim. I was amazed how easy it was and how trouble free the installation was. The sealing was reasonable from the start but improved over a week or two.

The only issue I foresee is not knowing when the tyre is worn out.

[sojournermike]

Maybe should have used tubeless ready rims.

Check out this article, which is the only thing I've seen anywhere that attempt to explain what a "road tubeless" rim is

http://wheelworks.co.nz/roadtubeless-vs-standard-rims/

Most of the advantages are to do with mounting, although the anti burping stuff might affect the maximum pressure obtainable

Here's the H Son Plus vs a Stan's Alpha 340



I note also that some sources claim that the maximum allowed pressure on a Alpha 340 is 90 psi

I'm currently running a pair of Schwalbe One tubeless on some Kinlin XC279 rims, which have a similar internal profile to the Dyad noted in your linked article. They are fine and sealed up without issue. Other people seem to think the Archetypes also work well.

Can you eliminate the valve (tighten up the thumb screw a bit) and tape leakage? Otherwise add a bit os sealant and carry on.

I've also got a pair of, the notorious, Racing Ralph's on proper 'tubeless rims' and they are taking a long time to seal properly. The rear is now good, but the front is still losing pressure of 2 to 3 days. I've used caffe latex on these as I hope the foaming action will help sort the very thin skin sidewalls more quickly.

Mike

[Frank9755]

You might get better answers on a mountain bike forum. Most of us are beginners at the tubeless game. 
I've had no issues with my Schwalbe Ones on A340 rims, but that doesn't help you!

[Ben T]

Mine probably drop to about 60psi after a couple of weeks but that's no worse than tubes. And they're perfectly ok at 60psi.

[StuAff]

I was getting my head around this topic when I saw on rant.cc that Hunt have released a range of tubeless ready (to the extent of being supplied with tubeless Schwalbe One's pre-installed) wheels which come with hookless rims.
Now I have to start again

linkeh http://road.cc/content/tech-news/169286-hunt-launches-three-new-wheelsets

Do you reckon the 4 season ones could cope with my generous frame? They do look rather lovely for the price....

I've just got a set of the Mason x Hunt 4 Seasons for my new Litespeed- picked up the bike Saturday- on the basis of the few miles I've done so far, excellent wheels. Was looking for something equivalent to Campagnolo Zondas, in terms of price/weight/performance/durability, and they fit the bill nicely. Recommended weight limit of 100 kg. The just-announced Gravel Disc versions are 28 hole spoke pattern rather than 24, 110 kg weight limit and the same weight (I think there's 5g in it....).  Josh Ibbett at Hunt (Transcontinental Race winner!) has been very helpful in answering my queries, worth dropping him a line.

[Morat]

Thanks for the info StuAff.
Yes, those would be the ones - seeing as I have disk brakes!! (Not quite sure how I overlooked that  )
Thanks for the info, I need to get back to 110Kg anyway (3Kg to shift). Perhaps a set of these wheels would provide the motivation....
Wheels as dietary aids? It might just work!

[vorsprung]

You might get better answers on a mountain bike forum. Most of us are beginners at the tubeless game. 
I've had no issues with my Schwalbe Ones on A340 rims, but that doesn't help you!

The problem is that our fat tyred friends have a standard for tubeless (UST), and think it's really great to be able to run the tyres at 20 psi

Whereas road tubeless have no standard other than some patents by Stan's and want to run the tyres at much higher psi

[bikenrrd]

Whereas road tubeless have no standard other than some patents by Stan's and want to run the tyres at much higher psi

There *is* a standard, devised by Hutchinson and Shimano in 2006!  It's just that Stan chooses to ignore it, and other tyre manufacturers also seem to ignore it.
The standard requires a very specific shape of hook, and a carbon fibre bead on the tyre.

[Ningishzidda]

Sounds like a conspiracy to extract money from unsuspecting eager consumers.

[bikey-mikey]

My standard practice is to check tyre pressures and repressure before every ride...

Every ride....

My tubeless tyres, over close to 100,000 kms, have never held pressure continuously, compared to clinchers, but that's never been an issue, and not due to poor fitment or design, but rather an obvious outcome when you consider the lower pressures they use, and maybe the sort of roads I ride on... Potholes etc deform the lower pressure tyre and occasionally air escapes...

Don't worry about it - carry a pump and learn how your favourite riding tyre pressure feels when you pinch the tyre - use your pump....enjoy a bit of fresh air.... (Pun intended)

[Phil W]

Your tyres are losing pressure far too quickly. I pumped my tubeless up to 100 psi , rode to Paris, rode PBP, rode back. Total of 8 days elapsed and pressure had dropped to 70 psi. 70 psi us actually my preferred pressure where the comfort and rollng balance feels just right.

[Ningishzidda]

When I pull the bike out of the shed, I put my weight on the saddle and see how much the tyres flare out. It ought to be 1.5mm each side on a 23mm tyre. If they look more than this, I use a track pump.
After work, I do the same when I pull the bike out of the bike store.

After a roadside repair, I do the same when I think they’re inflated enough.

Pinching a tyre to test its pressure is an old myth popularized in the music hall with hand actions to the song “Daisy bell.” ( a bicycle built for two )

[vorsprung]

Your tyres are losing pressure far too quickly. I pumped my tubeless up to 100 psi , rode to Paris, rode PBP, rode back. Total of 8 days elapsed and pressure had dropped to 70 psi. 70 psi us actually my preferred pressure where the comfort and rollng balance feels just right.

This is kind of what I'd expect.  So the next question is, what do I do to the wheel to make it less leaky?  I am thinking more yellow tape.  Unfortunately the extra reel of it I bought seems to be too wide for the rim so I'd have to get some more from somewhere.

[bikenrrd]

This is kind of what I'd expect.  So the next question is, what do I do to the wheel to make it less leaky?  I am thinking more yellow tape.  Unfortunately the extra reel of it I bought seems to be too wide for the rim so I'd have to get some from somewhere.

Do an eBay search for tesa 4289 tape.  I've seen it in 19mm and 25mm widths, but not the 21mm width that's common for Stan's tape.

You could also try to determine whether it's leaking from the valve hole with some soapy water.  Then possibly buy new valves.

[vorsprung]

This is kind of what I'd expect.  So the next question is, what do I do to the wheel to make it less leaky?  I am thinking more yellow tape.  Unfortunately the extra reel of it I bought seems to be too wide for the rim so I'd have to get some from somewhere.

Do an eBay search for tesa 4289 tape.  I've seen it in 19mm and 25mm widths, but not the 21mm width that's common for Stan's tape.

You could also try to determine whether it's leaking from the valve hole with some soapy water.  Then possibly buy new valves.

I have the 21mm tape - it's too wide.  The stuff with the kit (12mm tape) is sold as "Universal" tape so I will get some more of this.  The rim was taped with 2 layers as recommended.

The valves are included in the "rim strip" which was in the conversion kit.  This is a piece of rubber that goes all the way around like a rim tape but has the valve in it

I've just added more sealant to one of the wheels as someone else suggested.  See what happens

[Biggsy]

Pinching a tyre to test its pressure is an old myth popularized in the music hall with hand actions to the song “Daisy bell.” ( a bicycle built for two )

Bit odd to call it a myth.  Ok, it's hard (literally) when it's over 120 psi, but otherwise it's easy to gauge accurately enough with a strong pinch + experience.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Pinching a tyre to test its pressure is an old myth popularized in the music hall with hand actions to the song “Daisy bell.” ( a bicycle built for two )

Bit odd to call it a myth.  Ok, it's hard (literally) when it's over 120 psi, but otherwise it's easy to gauge accurately enough with a strong pinch + experience.

Precisely. I did suprise someone on a night ride when I got the pressure right to within 5psi.

It is definitely not a myth. Just takes experience

[sojournermike]

This is kind of what I'd expect.  So the next question is, what do I do to the wheel to make it less leaky?  I am thinking more yellow tape.  Unfortunately the extra reel of it I bought seems to be too wide for the rim so I'd have to get some from somewhere.

Do an eBay search for tesa 4289 tape.  I've seen it in 19mm and 25mm widths, but not the 21mm width that's common for Stan's tape.

You could also try to determine whether it's leaking from the valve hole with some soapy water.  Then possibly buy new valves.

I have the 21mm tape - it's too wide.  The stuff with the kit (12mm tape) is sold as "Universal" tape so I will get some more of this.  The rim was taped with 2 layers as recommended.

The valves are included in the "rim strip" which was in the conversion kit.  This is a piece of rubber that goes all the way around like a rim tape but has the valve in it

I've just added more sealant to one of the wheels as someone else suggested.  See what happens

I think that 12mm is probably too narrow and will allow some leakage. I would try ditching the conversion kit and just buying a couple of tubeless valves (Superstar or your local specialised 'concept store') and try with the 21mm tape accepting that it will run up the walls a little bit. The tyre bead will keep it in place and help the seal.

Mike

[StuAff]

Thinking of finally trying tubeless (only five years after I got Zonda 2 Way Fits for the Viner specifically to give me that option!)- will be either 25mms for the Viner or something between 28-35mm (or thereabouts) for the new beastie. Apologies if this has already been answered, but on fitment & the necessary bead-fitting inflation: Will a track pump do the job for road tubeless, if not what about a 12v car inflator (the kind powered by a lighter socket), is that enough of a compressor? CO2 seems a bit wasteful, so if purchasing something to fit tyres is needed I'd probably go for an Airshot.

[Hot Flatus]

Trackpump worked fine for me. Both tyres fitted perfectly first time. 

I did spend a few minutes afterwards rotating and shaking the wheel on a horizontal axis as recommended.  Apparently co2 may cause the sealant to harden prematurely.