Tubeless for Dummies

[vorsprung]

Some interesting comments here about using "tubeless compatible" tyres with non tubeless specific rims. 

http://biketestreviews.com/staying-safe-riding-road-tubeless-wheelstires/

[Ben T]

agree with all that apart from that hutchinsons "ride phenomenally"

[PeeJay]

So, what that's saying is that tubeless tyres that aren't Hutchinson's are merely "tubeless compatabile"
Also
"there are no true tubeless rims available"    i.e. only tubeless wheelsets .

So where does that leave Schwalbe Ones on Stan's Alpha rims? are they dangerous then?

[bikenrrd]

So where does that leave Schwalbe Ones on Stan's Alpha rims? are they dangerous then?

Stan's Alpha rims are generally just dangerous.  I wouldn't ride them.

[PeeJay]

So where does that leave Schwalbe Ones on Stan's Alpha rims? are they dangerous then?

Stan's Alpha rims are generally just dangerous.  I wouldn't ride them.

Really?   Why?

I've been using them for just over a year now.   Firstly with Schwalbe Ones,  now with Hutchinson fusions.   Not had an issue,  but then I'm just a sample of 1

[mrcharly-YHT]

He says that there are no tubeless rims, only tubeless wheelsets.

What are tubeless wheelsets made with then? Majik fairy wings?

https://www.dtswiss.com/Technology/TUBELESS-Technology
With the rim in the top pic, the inner bed isn't drilled. So how are spoke nipples inserted?

[bikenrrd]

So where does that leave Schwalbe Ones on Stan's Alpha rims? are they dangerous then?

Stan's Alpha rims are generally just dangerous.  I wouldn't ride them.

Really?   Why?

No hooks on the rim to speak off and removing material from the braking surface to lighten the rim.  There are reports on forums of tyres blowing off the rim (when using a tube) and the rim wall blowing out at the braking surface.
They are overpriced for what they are as well.

[PeeJay]

Anything on the forums about tubeless tyres blowing off Stan's rims?   Just done some googleing and the reports all seem to be for regular clinchers with tubes.

[sojournermike]

The article is a bit out of date. Key principles remain:

1. Only use tubeless tyres for road tubeless (Schwalbe or Hutchinson appear to be th e choice unless the I'd are also tubeless). Non tubeless beads are stretchy and may blow or roll off the rim.

2. It seems to be possible to run tubeless tyres OK on some non-tubeless rims but will depend on inner shape and a bit of luck. I've done it with LX17 and will th Schwalbe one's on Killin 28s, but am not really a big fan or that confident, hence a move to all rims being tubeless.

3. In practice sealant seems necessary and desirable to maximise the advantages.

The rim strip conversions are for mtb wheels and are a grim way to go about it.

Mike

[Ben T]

I recently replaced a schwalbe one 25 on stans alpha 340 that had a bit of a 'bulge' in the sidewall that appeared to be due to what I can only describe as there being a slight separation between bead and sidewall.
sort of a bit like this on the right, when it should be like on the left:


This was a rear. The front 25 seems  ok and both the 28s on the other bike seem ok however.

I'm wondering if i may have damaged it by using a tyre lever on it, albeit a plastic one. I have installed the replacement using thumbs  only and will be keeping an eye on it.

[Morat]

This whole subject really does seem to be far more confusing than it should be.
I've got some Alex rims on my Kona CX bike that are claimed to be "tubeless ready"
At the moment I've got Schwalbe Ones and tubes on it but I'm tempted by Schwalbe one tubeless when the clinchers wear out. Hopefully all will be clearer by the time that happens!
My rims came equipped with rim tape, although I've no idea whether it's necessary if I were to run tubeless. I'm certainly not going to take it off to find out!

[mrcharly-YHT]

https://www.dtswiss.com/Technology/TUBELESS-Technology
With the rim in the top pic, the inner bed isn't drilled. So how are spoke nipples inserted?

anyone know the answer to this question?

[Chris N]

Attach a steel insert to the nipple, feed it in through the valve hole and use a magnet to guide it to the correct spoke hole.

[vorsprung]

He says that there are no tubeless rims, only tubeless wheelsets.

What are tubeless wheelsets made with then? Majik fairy wings?

*sigh* the article is quite old.  Maybe at some point only complete wheels were available, not seperate rims.   Is it not possible things have changed in the mean time?

[mrcharly-YHT]

what about the rims? that DTswiss website is current.

Chris has proposed a method, but that sounds extremely slow and not possible to automate.

[vorsprung]

So where does that leave Schwalbe Ones on Stan's Alpha rims? are they dangerous then?

Stan's Alpha rims are generally just dangerous.  I wouldn't ride them.

All of the rims or just the 340?

Generally we believe you but in this case facts, figures and personal experience to back this up are required

[Chris N]

Chris has proposed a method, but that sounds extremely slow and not possible to automate.

Campagnolo/Fulcrum use a similar closed rim profile, and use machines from Holland Mechanics to produce wheels.  Couldn't say if they do automate lacing on that style of rim, but even if the lacing to the rim is done manually there's no reason why they can't finish it off in a machine.

[bikenrrd]

So where does that leave Schwalbe Ones on Stan's Alpha rims? are they dangerous then?

Stan's Alpha rims are generally just dangerous.  I wouldn't ride them.

All of the rims or just the 340?

Generally we believe you but in this case facts, figures and personal experience to back this up are required

I think the MTB rims are fine, but you're not running as high pressures as you are on a road bike.  I certainly know people personally who run the MTB rims with tubeless and non-tubeless tyres (and non-tubeless tyres run tubeless with sealant) and the tyre hasn't rolled off the rim.  Some run pretty extremely low pressure as well.

The problem with the road rims is the shape of the bead of the tyre and the shape of the "bead socket technology" as Stan's call it.  You will probably be okay with a Hutchinson tyre as the bead on these is a thick carbon fibre bead with a very distinct shape.

Normal tyres with a kevlar bead and inner tube run the highest risk of blowing off.  I've lost track of what the other tyre companies are using for their tubeless beads.  I think it's simpler and safer to use a different rim with more of a hook (Velocity, Kinlin, Pacenti) and you can successfully run tyres with inner tubes and not have to worry as much about getting the right rim / tyre combination.

There are two questions to ask:
1. if the tyre deflates, will the tyre roll of the rim?
    If the rims follow the Shimano / Hutchinson standard then they will not.
2.  if you have to put a tube in as your tyre will not seal, will the tyre blow off the rim?
    Again, if the rim follows the Shimano / Hutchy standard then it will not.

[vorsprung]

So where does that leave Schwalbe Ones on Stan's Alpha rims? are they dangerous then?

Stan's Alpha rims are generally just dangerous.  I wouldn't ride them.

All of the rims or just the 340?

Generally we believe you but in this case facts, figures and personal experience to back this up are required

I think the MTB rims are fine, but you're not running as high pressures as you are on a road bike.  I certainly know people personally who run the MTB rims with tubeless and non-tubeless tyres (and non-tubeless tyres run tubeless with sealant) and the tyre hasn't rolled off the rim.  Some run pretty extremely low pressure as well.

MTB tubeless is a completely different thing.  There is much more experience "out there" and there are widely adopted standards for tyres and rims.

The problem with the road rims is the shape of the bead of the tyre and the shape of the "bead socket technology" as Stan's call it.  You will probably be okay with a Hutchinson tyre as the bead on these is a thick carbon fibre bead with a very distinct shape.

Normal tyres with a kevlar bead and inner tube run the highest risk of blowing off.  I've lost track of what the other tyre companies are using for their tubeless beads.  I think it's simpler and safer to use a different rim with more of a hook (Velocity, Kinlin, Pacenti) and you can successfully run tyres with inner tubes and not have to worry as much about getting the right rim / tyre combination.

There are two questions to ask:
1. if the tyre deflates, will the tyre roll of the rim?
    If the rims follow the Shimano / Hutchinson standard then they will not.
2.  if you have to put a tube in as your tyre will not seal, will the tyre blow off the rim?
    Again, if the rim follows the Shimano / Hutchy standard then it will not.

I've had people on random Internet forums say the same thing the other way round, that I am risking life and limb by not using "proper" tubeless rims with a bead shelf

The only thing that everyone is agreed on is that certain combinations are known to work (ie hutchinson tyres + stan's rims)  and there are dire warnings for anyone doing their own thing.

I am finding it all slightly tedious, it really highlights how utterly useless the Internet is as an information source

[Somnolent]

There are two questions to ask:
1. if the tyre deflates, will the tyre roll of the rim?
    If the rims follow the Shimano / Hutchinson standard then they will not.
2.  if you have to put a tube in as your tyre will not seal, will the tyre blow off the rim?
    Again, if the rim follows the Shimano / Hutchy standard then it will not.

Sorry if this 'Shimano / Hutchinson standard' for rims has been discussed upthread and I missed it.

My experience is limited to Schwalbe One Tubeless 28 - which have a much chunkier bead than most folders, and on a regular hooked rim (in my case H Son Archetype) but with that combination the answer to the two questions above is a definite no.
I've had two major deflations and in neither case did the tyre come off.
One the second occasion I had to put a tube in - and bizarrely, as I was doing so a WVM stopped and lent me his track pump, so I know that even at 100 psi all is good.

[Phil W]

I had my first Tubeless puncture yesterday after 21 months. Happened on a slow uphill section, so didn't seal immediately. But seal it did. I was only 4 miles from home so couldn't be bothered stopping and just continued home. The pressure was quite low though, so low the rims impacted the road if I hit a pothole. Anyway got home put bike away. This morning got bike out expecting to repair puncture, but instead just needed to reinflate upto my preferred pressure. I was able to do this with a compact road pump that fits in a jersey pocket. At no point did the tyre roll off the rim, or lose its seal. This is Hutchinson Sector with Alpha 400's which use the same bead as the 340's. So this combination perfectly safe.

[bikey-mikey]

Sigh...

I have done over 100,000 kilometres in less than four years on Stan's Alpha 340 rims and Hutchinson Tubeless, either Intensive (25s) and latterly Sector 28....

They do not blow off the rims...

That is PROVEN because I have proved it....

Go away Luddites....

The rest of you are fine fellows. 

[bikenrrd]

Read the thread, Mikey.  Hutchinson don't blow off the rim because of the thick carbon fibre bead they use.  You might not be so lucky with other tyres.  The Schwalbes seem to get a good write up, and I haven't read any incidents of them blowing off the rim, either.

I'm no luddite - I'm running Hutchinsons on DT Swiss R23 spline tubeless ready wheels.  They haven't blown off the rim, either.

It just annoys me when there are clearly set out standards for these rims and tyres and not everyone follows the standard, including Stan for their rim shape.  The hooks should be bigger.  It'd add about 10 grams to the rim weight!.

[sojournermike]

Read the thread, Mikey.  Hutchinson don't blow off the rim because of the thick carbon fibre bead they use.  You might not be so lucky with other tyres.  The Schwalbes seem to get a good write up, and I haven't read any incidents of them blowing off the rim, either.

I'm no luddite - I'm running Hutchinsons on DT Swiss R23 spline tubeless ready wheels.  They haven't blown off the rim, either.

It just annoys me when there are clearly set out standards for these rims and tyres and not everyone follows the standard, including Stan for their rim shape.  The hooks should be bigger.  It'd add about 10 grams to the rim weight!.

I think the issue is that there isn't one clearly set out standard for road tubeless. However, there are only a limited number of tubeless ready tyres availablefor the road - made by Schwalbe and Hutchinson. Panaracer are developing a tubeless bead and I think the new Vittoria grapheme tyres will have a tubeless option. The key to the bead is that I'd doesn't stretch and blow off the rim, unlike tubed carcasses that have some additional mechanical support from the tube, and that it fits the bead hook well. The rim needs, really, a shelf for the bead to sit on, so tension doesn't pull it back into the well, which needs to be a bit deeper to allow mounting the non-stretchy beaded tyres.

Mike

[Biggsy]

The theory of an inner tube giving mechanical support still baffles me.  Needing stiffer beads for the shallower hooks they're sometimes used with is all the manufacturers need claim.