Tubeless for Dummies

[vorsprung]

Cheapest place for Schwalbe S One is now starbike, 41.90 Euros

[sg37409]

OK, not Starbucks, which is what I read at first glance

[Morat]

Purely for comparison (I'm definitely not trying to tell a vastly more experienced rider how to suck eggs)
I'll admit to 110Kg on a very good day.
I run Schwalbe One 28mm, original tubed version at 75/80 F/R.
I jumped on my new bike with the S-Ones and thought, hey the tyres look about right and was very surprised when I put the track pump on them and read 60PSI. I tried them at that and it seems to work. I doubt I would have gone that low otherwise.

Of course, I might just have a very poor pressure gauge!

I took my Roadhouse out today and in light of this thread I put the pressures up to 65/70 from 60/60. It still floated along over nasty old tarmac and chipseal but did feel a bit snappier. I realise that's not even approaching conclusive, but I thought it was worth sticking with.

[Bunker22]

1- How do you know how much sealant to put in? I see anywhere between 30ml and 70ml being put in to 28mm tyres.
2- When you top up (every 3 months being mentioned) do you remove all the old sealant and start again or do you just add more?

[Si S]

1- How do you know how much sealant to put in? I see anywhere between 30ml and 70ml being put in to 28mm tyres.
2- When you top up (every 3 months being mentioned) do you remove all the old sealant and start again or do you just add more?

1) I put 50 ml in my 28's, so slap bang in the middle.
2) Just changed mine this week after 8 months, the rear was ok-ish, the front was coral. I removed all the old sealant.

It was all much easier than I was anticipating, less than 30 mins to do both, quite impressed - I hate fettling my bikes. I did it without removing the valve cores, just unmounted the tyre, wiped out the old goo with kitchen roll, put most of the tyre back on, added the sealant using a purloined syringe with a bit of fish tank pipe on it fed into the last bit of open tyre at the top of the wheel, finished mounting the tyre and inflated first go with the track pump.

Lost a bit of pressure after the first night, topped them up and spun the wheel, they seem good now.

[inappropriate_bike]

I have a new tubeless problem this week 

Both wheels developed leaks around the tubeless valves, caused by (it appears) cracks in the rim tape.

Fortunately I discovered this at home rather than on a Welsh mountain - currently cleaning them out and will pop an inner tube in since I don't have time to fix them properly this weekend.

[Bunker22]

I now have some Sector 28s mounted on Son H Archetype rims, with Stans tape and sealant. Didnt get much in the way of a loud pop when I mounted them even using a compressor. However they have not leaked any air overnight and there is no evidence of any sealant extruding anywhere.

My question is : What pressure should I run them at?

I am 165 lbs, the side walls say inflate 87-101 lbs. I have read 75 front/85 rear a few times, some people run them lower.

I am confused.

[vorsprung]

I now have some Sector 28s mounted on Son H Archetype rims, with Stans tape and sealant. Didnt get much in the way of a loud pop when I mounted them even using a compressor. However they have not leaked any air overnight and there is no evidence of any sealant extruding anywhere.

My question is : What pressure should I run them at?

I am 165 lbs, the side walls say inflate 87-101 lbs. I have read 75 front/85 rear a few times, some people run them lower.

I am confused.

you don't mention it but with that sort of rim you need to use a rim strip

try it at whatever pressure you fancy, see what happens.  Remember you can't snakebite the tyres from too low pressure

[Bunker22]

I now have some Sector 28s mounted on Son H Archetype rims, with Stans tape and sealant. Didnt get much in the way of a loud pop when I mounted them even using a compressor. However they have not leaked any air overnight and there is no evidence of any sealant extruding anywhere.

My question is : What pressure should I run them at?

I am 165 lbs, the side walls say inflate 87-101 lbs. I have read 75 front/85 rear a few times, some people run them lower.

I am confused.

you don't mention it but with that sort of rim you need to use a rim strip

try it at whatever pressure you fancy, see what happens.  Remember you can't snakebite the tyres from too low pressure

Whats the difference between rim strip and rim tape? I used 2 layers of 21mm Stans tape (like your wordpress article) and the separate Stans Valves. Did I need something different?

Thx

[vorsprung]

I now have some Sector 28s mounted on Son H Archetype rims, with Stans tape and sealant. Didnt get much in the way of a loud pop when I mounted them even using a compressor. However they have not leaked any air overnight and there is no evidence of any sealant extruding anywhere.

My question is : What pressure should I run them at?

I am 165 lbs, the side walls say inflate 87-101 lbs. I have read 75 front/85 rear a few times, some people run them lower.

I am confused.

you don't mention it but with that sort of rim you need to use a rim strip

try it at whatever pressure you fancy, see what happens.  Remember you can't snakebite the tyres from too low pressure

Whats the difference between rim strip and rim tape? I used 2 layers of 21mm Stans tape (like your wordpress article) and the separate Stans Valves. Did I need something different?

Thx

Tubeless tape is to seal the holes from the spoke nipples to make the rim airtight

A rim strip is to alter the internal shape of the rim to make it less likely to burp

The rim strip looks like this



See instructions on about converting wheels to tubeless here http://www.notubes.com/detailed_kit_instruction.aspx

I have your type of rims and I am using rim strips as I believe they are the correct adaptation

[Phil W]

I now have some Sector 28s mounted on Son H Archetype rims, with Stans tape and sealant. Didnt get much in the way of a loud pop when I mounted them even using a compressor. However they have not leaked any air overnight and there is no evidence of any sealant extruding anywhere.

My question is : What pressure should I run them at?

I am 165 lbs, the side walls say inflate 87-101 lbs. I have read 75 front/85 rear a few times, some people run them lower.

I am confused.

First time of mounting a fresh set of Sectors I pump them up to the max just to let them seat. After that I,let them lose air naturally. I'm heavier  than you (at the moment) and run my front rear at 70 / 75.  I've run them as low as 40 psi which is darn comfortable but you'll sense them squirm a bit on corners. So 70 / 75 it is, still fast but far more comfortable than stuff in the 87-101 range on the sidewall

[Andrew Br]

More issues on the Friday's Tour.
This time there was slow pressure loss and lots of "frothing" around the valve although this was only apparent in the morning after staying in a hotel overnight. Perhaps during the day the froth was thrown off the tyre as it rotated ?
I persevered with it 'til the next but last day when I found the tyre was very flat. This was at bed-time so I pumped it up and set the alarm for an hour earlier than necessary "Just in case".
It was flat again in the morning so I spent some time in the bathroom taking the tyre off (easy), removing blue goo from the rim (easy but time and loo-paper consuming) then putting a tube in and replacing the tyre (also easy).
For the rest of the Tour, I kept the tyre at 80-90 psi compared to the 70 going down to 60psi that I'd started with; I was very conscious of snake-biting the tube given that I was carrying luggage on a rear rack and there are lots of kerbs to bump up on French and Belgian cycle paths.
The ride with the higher pressure was noticeably worse but I didn't think the tyre rolled any better. Cycling tubeless over the cobbles at the lower pressures was actually a joy even if the rim had started to bottom out towards the end (of tubeless).

I'm not sure where I go next.
I love the sensation of riding fast tyres at low pressure but I've had too many issues to be confident in the tubeless concept.
It seems that there's something missing in one or more of the tubeless components: tyre, rim, tape, valve or sealant.

At some point I need to take the tyre off and clean out the sealant properly otherwise if/when I have a puncture at the side of the road it will be incredibly messy. I only did a partial job in the hotel and even then I filled the (little) rubbish bin.

I'd welcome any feedback.

FWIW, the anchovy had held up very well and it certainly wasn't the issue with the pressure loss.

[Samuel D]

You mention the rim bottoming out. Does not the need to avoid that nullify the tubeless benefit of pinch-flat resistance? Since you only get pinch flats if you run out of ‘suspension’ travel.

[Andrew Br]

I could (and did) "bottom" out when running tubeless. I'd have preferred not to but the pressure loss sometimes allowed it. There was no detrimental effect. Thinking about it, the pressure may well have gone below 60psi.
I really tried hard to avoid the rim "bottoming" (and did) when I'd put the tube in. I had to keep the pressure significantly higher to be sure it wouldn't happen.
Sorry if that wasn't clear from my earlier post.

[Samuel D]

Your post was clear. It’s just that a rim bottoming out would scare me even with tubeless, so I thought tubeless wouldn’t allow lower pressures in practice (due to rim damage even if you avoid a pinch flat). But you’ve done it and lived to tell the tale, so clearly tubeless does allow lower pressures. Rims are strong things, I suppose.

I have no useful suggestions for you, but I noticed the Japanese company IRC has several tubeless tyres. Does anyone here use them?

[chrisbainbridge]

I have had one set of rims DT Swiss which were poorly joined and would deflate as you describe without any obvious leak. For some reason,probably because the sealant was not being flung centripetally at the leak it never stopped. Eventually I replaced the rim.

[Frank9755]

Your post was clear. It’s just that a rim bottoming out would scare me even with tubeless, so I thought tubeless wouldn’t allow lower pressures in practice (due to rim damage even if you avoid a pinch flat). But you’ve done it and lived to tell the tale, so clearly tubeless does allow lower pressures. Rims are strong things, I suppose.

I have no useful suggestions for you, but I noticed the Japanese company IRC has several tubeless tyres. Does anyone here use them?

I have a set of IRC tyres on my commuter.  They are fine, pleasant to ride.  They don't hold air that well and need regular pumping up. 

On the Transcontinental when I had tyre issues and my rear was down to 30psi, I bottomed out my rim on an off-road path in a forest in Switzerland.  The rim has a slight dent as a result.  I can feel it slightly when braking, but not enough to bother me. 

[Biggsy]

Your post was clear. It’s just that a rim bottoming out would scare me even with tubeless, so I thought tubeless wouldn’t allow lower pressures in practice (due to rim damage even if you avoid a pinch flat). But you’ve done it and lived to tell the tale, so clearly tubeless does allow lower pressures. Rims are strong things, I suppose.

Depends what you bottom out on and how hard.  You raise a good point.  I want the tyres inflated enough to protect the rims from nasty pothole meetings, personally, but other riders may be willing to take more risk.

(Of course I try to avoid riding over nasties, but distractions do happen, etc).

[Ivan]

This time there was slow pressure loss and lots of "frothing" around the valve although this was only apparent in the morning after staying in a hotel overnight.

My tubeless rear has also deflated via the valve surrounding, have put in a tube and yet to attempt resealing. Couldn't see any cracks in the rim tape. I suspect that part of the problem might be that the majority of the sealant never comes near the valve assembly when on the bike - taking the wheel off and shaking it when held horizontal might be required (as per the Stan's installation instructions) - did you try this?

[vorsprung]

I'd welcome any feedback.

When did you last replace the sealant?  I use Stans and it seems to become less effective after a couple of months

[Andrew Br]

When did you last replace the sealant?  I use Stans and it seems to become less effective after a couple of months

I put the Fenwicks sealant in the tyre around the beginning of July. It was still very "runny" when I was wiping it out in the Ibis bathroom  .

This time there was slow pressure loss and lots of "frothing" around the valve although this was only apparent in the morning after staying in a hotel overnight.

My tubeless rear has also deflated via the valve surrounding, have put in a tube and yet to attempt resealing. Couldn't see any cracks in the rim tape. I suspect that part of the problem might be that the majority of the sealant never comes near the valve assembly when on the bike - taking the wheel off and shaking it when held horizontal might be required (as per the Stan's installation instructions) - did you try this?

I didn't try it and perhaps I should have. However, since I was touring with a group I didn't want to risk having to insert a tube mid-ride and hold everyone up. Plus, of course, there was lots of paper, water and soap in the bathroom. All I lost was an hour's sleep  .

I wasn't thrilled at bottoming out the rim prior to fitting the tube but I wasn't unduly worried. It always happened as we were riding up the sometimes not very dropped kerbs on some of the cycle-paths that we used (I'm particularly looking at you Belgium). In those instances I was riding very slowly and pulling the front wheel up and over the kerb. I couldn't hop the back wheel since I was carrying luggage on the rack.

[Phil W]

My tubeless setup is so old now that I replaced the tape in May. First time I made the hole for the valve too large and ir frothed when trying to inflate. So I had to redo the tape. Poke the hole from the inside with a small flat blade or sharp point if a Stanley knife from the rim towards the hub. Make sure slit is slightly narrower than valve stem.  The frothing won't be due to low pressure but due to the hole in the tape being slightly too large / mis aligned. Check the valve rubber seal on the inside as well. The Stans tubeless valves have a rubber seal that is rectangular not square, and needs to be rotated before tightening the valve to get the best seal.

[zigzag]

having recently acquired three sets of tubeless wheels with intention to go tubeless, i'm still on the fence regarding tubeless tyres. one of the reasons is the lack of good (for me) tyres on the market, another is faffing with the sealant.
i'll wait a year or so until technology improves and becomes more available/reliable.

[Bunker22]

My wheels have lost about 10 psi over a week. This seems reasonably normal?

[vorsprung]

My wheels have lost about 10 psi over a week. This seems reasonably normal?

I'd expect almost any newly inflated tyre to loose a small amount of pressure.  My experience with tubeless setup is that they do seem to loose more pressure than clichers with inner tubes