Tubeless for Dummies

[Hot Flatus]

I wish my fastest wheels were tubeless.  I have a pair of Fulcrum Quattro carbon disc wheels that are lovely, but Campag insist they are not tubeless ready....not sure if that precludes being tubeless compatible but Im not going to be taking risks with them.

(Well, one set are tubular  )

[mzjo]

Why the implied reticence?

Purely the cost of tubeless tyres. Don't really fancy the ghetto conversion of the current tyres (Marathon Supremes). Will probably make the switch next time the tyres need replacing.

If you shop around...

Wiggle did Hutchinson Sector 32 for £28. (Ideal winter tyre)

I got some Schwalbe Pro Ones from France for not much a while back.

My preferred discount supplier (here in France) has Schwalbe One at 39€ and Pro One at 45€ which is probably not enough discount to justify post to UK but might be interesting to those with postboxes in France. Cycletyres Direct don't have a tubeless filter which is a bit of a nuisance since it means scrolling through 16 pages of results. I am not keen enough on tubeless to know all the options so excuse me for not looking further.

[Alex B]

I have just got some new wheels built using H Plus Son's new "Tubeless Compatible" rims, "The Hydra". The wheels have a double layer of tubeless rim rape.

Compared to my previous tubeless rims, Pacenti SLs, the experience is different.

- Schwalbe G One Speed tyres went on with thumbs alone, and inflated first go with a track pump with the bead popping into place at around 60 psi as usual.

- However, on deflation as the pressure neared zero the tyres popped again as the bead demounted.

- With sealant in, I could inflate the tyre and reseat the bead using just a roadside pump (Lezyne Micro Floor Drive)

Not sure what I think about this. While it's useful to be able to mount tyres without tools and reseat the bead on the road (I must practice this to make sure it wasn't a fluke) I think I prefer the Pacenti SL behaviour where the bead stays firmly in place even if the pressure drops to zero. In the event of a serious puncture this strikes me as probably being safer and easier to fix ...

[zigzag]

my first experience of mounting and test riding tubeless was very positive. tubeless rims (pro-lite bortola), tubeless racing tyres (ultremo zx), tesa tape (two layers of, linked upthread) and conti revo sealant. the hardest part was to install the tape, as it requires a lot of force to stick without any wrinkles. cut the valve hole carefully so that it is a bit smaller than the valve. i then mounted normal clincher tyres with inner tubes and pumped them to the max so that they would press and bond the tape reliably.
took the tyres off, put the tubeless valves in (without cores), mounted tubeless tyres (no levers or soapy water needed), pumped vigorously with a track pump and the both tyres seated first time, inflated them to 120psi. front tyre was silent, rear was slightly hissing near the valve. poured the sealant in, screwed in the valves and inflated the tyres again to a 100psi. after shaking, flipping and spinning the wheels both tyres hold the pressure fine and ride very nice, as expected. i plan to ride them at 80-85psi(f) and 90-95psi(r).
now need to sort out the repair kit to carry on the bike - is sealant worth having?

[Hot Flatus]

I dont carry sealant on the bike. I do have a tubeless repair kit but Ive never used it. I think when you start to get frequent (self-sealing) punctures then you have to start thinking about replacing the tyre.

Incidentally, i use a different mounting method. Mount tyre most of the way, soapy water wiped on bead. Leave a bit of tyre unmounted in which you pour in the sealant. Rotate wheel 90° so that sealant pools at bottom where tyre is seated. Mount remaining but then pump like fuck. Then do the old wobbling and rotating of the wheel to sluice the sealant around.

[Frank9755]

I dont carry sealant on the bike. I do have a tubeless repair kit but Ive never used it. I think when you start to get frequent (self-sealing) punctures then you have to start thinking about replacing the tyre.

Incidentally, i use a different mounting method. Mount tyre most of the way, soapy water wiped on bead. Leave a bit of tyre unmounted in which you pour in the sealant. Rotate wheel 90° so that sealant pools at bottom where tyre is seated. Mount remaining but then pump like fuck. Then do the old wobbling and rotating of the wheel to sluice the sealant around.

That's pretty much what I do regarding mounting. 
I don't carry sealant.  I normally carry a tube - but have only used it twice in three years (both of those could have been avoided - one was me not thinking and the other was a clubmate's pump unscrewing my valve core).  I also carry a tubeless repair kit on long rides.  I've used it once, but with only limited success (on last year's TCR).

[zigzag]

<...>
Incidentally, i use a different mounting method. Mount tyre most of the way, soapy water wiped on bead. Leave a bit of tyre unmounted in which you pour in the sealant. Rotate wheel 90° so that sealant pools at bottom where tyre is seated. Mount remaining but then pump like fuck. Then do the old wobbling and rotating of the wheel to sluice the sealant around.

the logic behind pumping the tyres up without the valve cores is to get better airflow to get them seated. the nozzle of sealant bottle is made to work with valves, therefore a perfect fit (only i didn't check how fast the sealant flows and poured about 50ml into the front tyre, instead of 30).
your method is good too, as long as it gets the result.

[Frank9755]

My experience is that some tyres / rim combinations do stay locked onto the rim when you deflate and some don't.  As yours clearly do, I can see the logic to it but I like to keep my cores done up tight!

The two times I've had to use a tube were both when the tyre deflated and lost the seal with the rim, and, without track pump or CO2, I couldn't reinflate it fast enough to get it back on the rim (that was with Stan's Alpha 340 rims and Schwalbe Ones).

[zigzag]

imo, all tubeless rims should have a little ridge to keep the tyre bead seated, like in this image:



some tubeless rims have flat shelves (which is not ideal) or worse - gently sloping shelves, in shape of a sine wave (like fulcrums, although they are marketed as tubeless compatible).

[jiberjaber]

imo, all tubeless rims should have a little ridge to keep the tyre bead seated, like in this image:



some tubeless rims have flat shelves (which is not ideal) or worse - gently sloping shelves, in shape of a sine wave (like fulcrums, although they are marketed as tubeless compatible).

So the ridge that is referred to as missing in the Archetype is the bit on the bottom where the spokes go ?

In other questions, I had some Schwalbe S-One's arriving on a new purchase which I am advised that they've now replaced with the new 'G-One Speed', which is available in 30C.

https://www.schwalbe.com/gb/road-reader/schwalbe-g-one-speed.html

I was originally after 28C tyres so I am now being offered the option for these in the Pro-One. I am not sure I am to fussed on wether they are 28C or 30C - both will be comfy I expect....

Has anyone any experience or comments about the merits of either?

[sojournermike]

The Archetypes don't even have a bead shelf, just a gentle u shaped rim bed. Not tubeless compatible.

I've got 28mm Ones on 19mm internal rims (Kinlin 31T) and they are 30mm wide. Comfy with the rear at 70 to 75psi. Getting a bit firmer at 80.

Mike

[jiberjaber]

The new tyres would be on Hunt rims initially (4 season Gravel) though I thought I had heard of others putting tubeless on the Archetypes?

[sojournermike]

The new tyres would be on Hunt rims initially (4 season Gravel) though I thought I had heard of others putting tubeless on the Archetypes?

Don't know what rims the Hunt gravel have. I know 'everyone' says Archetypes are tubeless compatible, and they may go up and stay up, but I'd be careful (actually I wouldn't use them tubeless and haven't bought any for that reason) as there is no real bead support in the event of deflation or side load. YMMV of course.

Mike

[Alex B]

Has anyone any experience or comments about the merits of either?

The Schwalbe G One Speed (which so far as I can see is identical to the S One, except for the logo) comes up the same size as the "28mm" Pro Ones: at about 31mm wide on a 25mm rim.

The S One/G One Speed appears like it should be a tougher tyre than the Pro One with thicker rubber (it's quite a bit heavier) and stippled tread. I've had non-sealing punctures wth each, but my sample size is too small to mean anything. A Pro One suffered catastrophic failure on the Asparagus & Strawberries with a big bang - looked like glass had taken a chunk out of the tyre.

I think the Pro one wears quickly: 3,000 km for the rear maybe.

Personally, I'm thinking the G One Speed for October-March, and the Pro One for April-September rides, is about as good a choice of audax tubeless tyre as you can make.

[jsabine]

The new tyres would be on Hunt rims initially (4 season Gravel) though I thought I had heard of others putting tubeless on the Archetypes?

Don't know what rims the Hunt gravel have. I know 'everyone' says Archetypes are tubeless compatible, and they may go up and stay up, but I'd be careful (actually I wouldn't use them tubeless and haven't bought any for that reason) as there is no real bead support in the event of deflation or side load. YMMV of course.

I'm inclined to think that a lack of bead support makes little odds, at least for road tubeless - I'm not sure I've heard of them burping, while if you get a deflation that means the bead unseats, you'll probably need to put a tube in. I'm not convinced that you're much worse off than when a clincher punctures: the sealant makes it messy, but beyond that ...

I've been running road tubeless tyres (Schwalbe Ones) on Open Pros quite happily for a little while: I'm about to replace the front with an A23 (because the braking surface is, um, a wee bit worn) and will see if it makes an appreciable difference, but after that wears out I'll probably use the Archetype I've also got in stock.

[PeeJay]

imo, all tubeless rims should have a little ridge to keep the tyre bead seated, like in this image:



some tubeless rims have flat shelves (which is not ideal) or worse - gently sloping shelves, in shape of a sine wave (like fulcrums, although they are marketed as tubeless compatible).

I thought that ridge was just a feature of the mavic UST rims

[Frank9755]

imo, all tubeless rims should have a little ridge to keep the tyre bead seated, like in this image:

Most do but that doesn't mean they will stay locked on when deflated.

[Frank9755]

The new tyres would be on Hunt rims initially (4 season Gravel) though I thought I had heard of others putting tubeless on the Archetypes?

Hunt rims are rebadged Kinlins, ie the same as Malcolm at the Cycle Clinic has.

[Frank9755]

I thought that ridge was just a feature of the mavic UST rims

My three sets of tubeless compatible rims all have it (Kinlin XR31, Stans Alpha 340 and Velocity A23)

[PeeJay]

I thought that ridge was just a feature of the mavic UST rims

My three sets of tubeless compatible rims all have it (Kinlin XR31, Stans Alpha 340 and Velocity A23)

Really?  I've got 4 velocity a23s and they have the shelf but no lip .  Ditto my old pair of stans 340s



Great rims the a23, build well and have held up great so far

[Frank9755]

Maybe we are meaning different things by 'lip'.  I was referring to the hook on the end!

[zigzag]

it's this little raised edge that prevents the beads from sliding into the well:

[citoyen]

Has anyone used Maxxis Padrone tyres?

Chain Reaction has them in 28 at a reasonable price at the moment so I might take a punt.

[Hot Flatus]

Need to plug a hole in an aging Schwalbe One. It ejaculated twice on me on today's audax.

[citoyen]

How wide does the rim tape need to be?

With my Vernier caliper, the internal width of the Grail rim comes up as a smidge over 20mm. I've ordered some Effeto Caffelatex rim tape in the 20.5mm size but taking the dip of the rim channel into account, I'm concerned that might not be wide enough. Does it need to go right to the edges for a good seal?

The rear wheel rim is slightly narrower, so the tape should be fine for that one at least.