Author Topic: Tubeless for Dummies  (Read 195388 times)

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #825 on: 02 November, 2018, 08:04:27 am »
To add a little bit more information to the the group, last week I went to the shed to find the rear Paris Roubaix tubed tyre on my bike flat and off the rim. I simply swapped the wheels over for the dynonwheelsnid been intending to put on anyway and went for a ride. In the cold and wet the gen 1 Schwalbe Ones (25mm cause 28s don’t fit under the guards) felt very sketchy.

Yesterday I swapped them out for a pair of Hutchinson Fusion 5 ... All Season. The 28s came up at just over 29mm wide on 19mm internal rims and fit under my guards. The carcass feels really. I’ve and supple, particularly for a winter tyre. Hopefully there is enough grip and suitable tread to feel and be. Dryer in the winter smog - I’ll report when I’m allowed to ride again next week.

These and a pair of 25s all mounted with just a track pump first time and were installed without levers.

Good so far.

Phil W

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #826 on: 02 November, 2018, 06:05:30 pm »
Used the proper ust tape (replacing the old Stans tape) for my Mavic rear UST rear wheel. I can confirm this makes it rather easy to put the tyre on with just your thumbs.  I think this is because the Mavic tape is much thinner (hopefully equally strong) so exposes the well much better to ease fitting. I can also confirm Stans 44mm valves are much better than Mavic ones. The Mavic ones are shorter and do not have a thread all the way down the valve so are much fiddlier to fit. 

Ben T

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #827 on: 02 November, 2018, 06:34:08 pm »
Black ones do, and are long.
Not sure where you get them from though sorry!
Most Mavic valves are silver but my bike came with black ones which are longer.

Phil W

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #828 on: 03 November, 2018, 09:05:07 am »
I think the Stans valve have. Better rubber bung for sitting nicely in the valve hole. The Mavic valve bung did not sit quite right in their own rim well!  Well tyre has not lost any air overnight with Stans valve so all good.

Ben T

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #829 on: 03 November, 2018, 06:54:43 pm »
Yeah. I do think the stans circular design is slightly better being circular rather than semi-cylindrical, so it doesn't have to be oriented correctly to seat.
Only thing I'm slightly curious about is that mine seem to be unobtanium as the only place I can find black ones is SJS cycles
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tyres-tubestubeless-tyre-spares/mavic-80mm-ust-valve-for-46mm-to-66mm-deep-rims/
and I'm sure mine are slightly less than 80mm and I could have sworn they are threaded all the way.

still I don't need to get any more, just bugs me slightly having something unobtanium on my bike.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #830 on: 03 November, 2018, 07:59:49 pm »
I have recently come over to tubeless, despite some concerns, which have thus far all turned out to have been misplaced. I've mounted Hutchinson Sector 32's on Pacenti Forza rims. Easily got them on by hand and seated first time with a blast of CO2. Stans valves and sealant, for the record.
I love how they feel on my new bike (Reilly Gradient) and am riding a 300 next week to test them out properly.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #831 on: 06 November, 2018, 12:39:09 pm »
Anecdata again, but after a successful "seal on the go" on the Upper Thames last weekend I feel the Caffelatex is quicker at sealing than the Schwalbe sealant (re-badged Stan's).  Certainly no need to add any air.
But, by heck, cleaning the dried sealant off the inside of the mudguard later was a major task.     It sticks like the proverbial excrement on a blanket.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #832 on: 06 November, 2018, 12:46:35 pm »
Finish Line sealant=shite.

Do not buy.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #833 on: 06 November, 2018, 12:47:52 pm »
Finish Line sealant=shite.

Do not buy.

In that it doesn't seal punctures?
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #834 on: 06 November, 2018, 01:46:04 pm »
Doesn't seem to.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #835 on: 08 November, 2018, 12:31:30 pm »
great to see new conti gp5000 released in tubeless version, and also available in 32mm width (along with 25 and 28mm). looks like a perfect tyre for the pbp next year.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #836 on: 08 November, 2018, 04:08:58 pm »
great to see new conti gp5000 released in tubeless version, and also available in 32mm width (along with 25 and 28mm). looks like a perfect tyre for the pbp next year.

Do they do it with reflective sidewalls?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #837 on: 08 November, 2018, 04:10:48 pm »
To Answer my own question: No.

But I do notice they have a 650b version! which is rather nice.
28 mm only, but it's a start.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Samuel D

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #838 on: 08 November, 2018, 05:48:30 pm »
Unimpressive on paper. A 60 TPI, 300 g, 25 mm tubeless tyre with built-in butyl seal layer and extra rubber leading up from the bead is unlikely to be as fast or comfortable as a regular clincher with a latex tube (and probably not even with a light butyl tube).

They’ve also messed with the Grand Prix 4000 S II cosmetic tread pattern that accidentally happened to be aerodynamically beneficial with aero rims. What’s the betting that’s a regression?

Also no progress on a tubeless standard from the leader in road bicycle tyres. As is too often the case, Mavic is the only company with the engineering chops and integrity to try.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #839 on: 08 November, 2018, 06:31:56 pm »
180tpi, not 60.

Continental are saying the TL has 5% less rolling resistance than the non-TL version...

...so not as bad as you are trying to make out.

Phil W

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #840 on: 08 November, 2018, 06:39:59 pm »
Samuel has got a bit confused.

It is 330 TPI according to the Continental website and the 295g is for the 32mm size. The 25mm size is 220g.

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #841 on: 08 November, 2018, 06:47:41 pm »
I think those specs are for the clincher.

Samuel D got the weight of the TL right but the thread count woefully wrong. His opinion (based on no evidence whatsoever....quelle surprise) that the TL is "unlikely to be as fast" as the clincher contradicts the evidence presented by Continental themselves. Still what would they know  ::-)

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #842 on: 08 November, 2018, 07:44:05 pm »
Continental uses a 60 or 110tpi fabric, then puts three layers on top of each other and calls it 180tpi or 330tpi. From what I understand of it reading cyclingtips.com anyway.

At these prices I may as well stick to the Compass tyres (although their narrowest tubeless 700c is 35mm at the moment)

Samuel D

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #843 on: 08 November, 2018, 08:14:48 pm »
Yes, Continental routinely mislabels the thread-count. There are three plies under the crown and they simply triple the ply thread-count as if we couldn’t do our own multiplication if we wanted to for some strange reason. This practice is probably illegal but the regulators have bigger fish to fry.

The thread-count of each casing ply, i.e. the figure of comparison with other manufacturers’ tyres, is 60 per inch as I said. The claimed weight is 300 g for the 25 mm model as I said. Average weight off the production line is probably more like 320 g or they would have called it 200-and-something.

I assume it’s slower than the regular clincher with a latex tube because of the way the two tyres are constructed. For that not to be the case, the tubeless version would have to have a different tread compound or depth, which is possible but not in favour of the tubeless version. I wasn’t born yesterday so I pay little heed to claims like 5% faster [than some unspecified alternative]. Continental doesn’t even sell latex tubes so you can be sure they weren’t comparing to that. Where does Continental make this claim anyway? I only see second-hand versions.

All that is unimpressive on paper, and so is Continental’s willingness to put out a tubeless tyre before establishing a standard with the other big players. But perhaps they have reason to believe that a published standard is imminent.

Samuel D

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #844 on: 08 November, 2018, 08:37:18 pm »
This may be the CyclingTips article Zed43 refers to:

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/11/continental-goes-tubeless-with-new-grand-prix-5000-road-tire/

It doesn’t make it clear that Continental triples the ply thread-count but does say “330tpi (total) nylon casing”. Should probably be clearer given Continental’s success at sowing confusion with this wheeze.

Oddly, the 5% faster claim takes another form there:

“As compared to the Grand Prix 4000 S II, Continental says the Grand Prix 5000 TL rolls 5% faster […]”

We’ll find out when Bicycle Rolling Resistance tests them. I’d put money on the old 4000 S II with a latex tube being faster than the 5000 TL.

Anyone know what might be meant by Active Comfort Technology?

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #845 on: 08 November, 2018, 08:48:50 pm »
from my pov, i'd have been happy if the current gp4000s2 was available as a tubeless without any increased performance, their main advantage against competition being the quality of rubber compound (i haven't come across any tyres that come close). even if the claims of "increased this, decreased that" aren't true for the gp5000, the tyre that is, hopefully, at least as good as the 4000s2. i'm well aware that it's quite heavy* but no heavier than an equivalent tyre with a latex inner tube.

*in comparison tubeless hutchinson 5 galactics weigh 227g in 25mm (actual weight)

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #846 on: 08 November, 2018, 09:02:32 pm »
I have recently come over to tubeless, despite some concerns, which have thus far all turned out to have been misplaced. I've mounted Hutchinson Sector 32's on Pacenti Forza rims. Easily got them on by hand and seated first time with a blast of CO2. Stans valves and sealant, for the record.
I love how they feel on my new bike (Reilly Gradient) and am riding a 300 next week to test them out properly.

Just FYI but co2 and stans sealant don't like each other

The co2 and the sealant have some kind of chemical reaction

In my experience what happens is that after a week or so if you look at the sealant there will just be some brown water.  The brown water will not seal a hole.

Without co2 the sealant is still good and looks like the original colour months later

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #847 on: 09 November, 2018, 05:54:31 pm »
I've also heard that various manufacturers – not just Continental – routinely call 3 plies of 60tpi 180tpi (etc).

I assume it’s slower than the regular clincher with a latex tube because of the way the two tyres are constructed.
This is rather the problem... Why assume? Might be better to find out from those who've used both tyres or wait for reliable test figures.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Samuel D

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #848 on: 10 November, 2018, 09:41:47 am »
I've also heard that various manufacturers – not just Continental – routinely call 3 plies of 60tpi 180tpi (etc).

Tell us more.

I assume it’s slower than the regular clincher with a latex tube because of the way the two tyres are constructed.
This is rather the problem... Why assume? Might be better to find out from those who've used both tyres or wait for reliable test figures.

Because speculation is fun! I hope it’s obvious from my past that if facts emerge to cast doubt on my assumption I will adjust it cheerfully.

Meanwhile, it seems that Tom Anhalt, notable commentator and tester of tyres, jumped to literally identical conclusions to me in the comments on the CyclingTips article above (his username is “tanhalt”).

He additionally notes there that Continental didn’t publish a Crr versus pressure chart for the various models, something that he thinks is “conspicuous by its absence”. It’s a good point. They did that for the 4000 S launch, didn’t they?

Samuel D

Re: Tubeless for Dummies
« Reply #849 on: 10 November, 2018, 09:53:16 am »
This launch is pretty odd. Little (and conflicting) information is available even though Continental flew about about 40 journalists out to Tenerife. BikeRadar said the launch was rescheduled earlier, and the tyres were supposed to be available immediately. They’re not available and most of them won’t be for weeks. Looks botched, not that this matters to anyone buying the tyres on merit.

For those interested, there’s a SlowTwitch thread here with more Anhalt comments (username “Tom A.”). He’s sceptical about the Active Comfort Technology too. Has anyone come across a plausible explanation of what that does?