Author Topic: Bye Lance  (Read 284953 times)

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1950 on: 28 January, 2015, 12:57:08 pm »
Perfectly clean sports would be nice

I'm not sure virtue and sport are wholly compatible. Any sport. Not when you introduce a competitive element to it. The Corinthian spirit has always been a myth.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1951 on: 28 January, 2015, 12:57:18 pm »
He is a manipulator and skilfully presents the most favourable story that he can get away with under the circumstances. To be honest, if he really is the face of sport I would rather do without sport. We can enjoy our own cycling challenges without having to contaminate ourselves by cheering rubbish like him. I have my "heros", and they are people I know personally. I don't need the likes of Armstrong to inspire me.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1952 on: 28 January, 2015, 01:40:14 pm »
Perfectly clean sports would be nice

I'm not sure virtue and sport are wholly compatible. Any sport. Not when you introduce a competitive element to it. The Corinthian spirit has always been a myth.

More so when there's money involved. Cycling is one of the oldest professional sports, and pro-cyclists have, for most of that time, been quite badly paid and just concerned with earning a living by what ever means - and no-one really worried.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1953 on: 28 January, 2015, 06:05:28 pm »
I suppose a lot of people used the inspiration of Lance to enhance their performance, and they feel a bit let down by their imperfect imitation of imperfection.

I think part of his appeal was that he looked so average, an ordinary bloke, so ordinary blokes could project their fantasies onto him. I can't do that, so he's never been an inspiration.

I identify with the big domestiques. In rugby terms, the average bloke might identify with the scrum-half, while I'm one of nature's second-row forwards.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1954 on: 28 January, 2015, 06:23:40 pm »
I suppose a lot of people used the inspiration of Lance to enhance their performance, and they feel a bit let down by their imperfect imitation of imperfection.

I think part of his appeal was that he looked so average, an ordinary bloke, so ordinary blokes could project their fantasies onto him. I can't do that, so he's never been an inspiration.

I identify with the big domestiques. In rugby terms, the average bloke might identify with the scrum-half, while I'm one of nature's second-row forwards.

I always had you down as a bit of a flanker :)

velosam

  • '.....you used to be an apple on a stick.'
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1955 on: 28 January, 2015, 08:28:02 pm »
he comes out of this with more integrity than people like Landis,

Low praise indeed

Also, it wasn't Lance's "win at any cost" attitude that makes him unpleasant, almost all top sportsmen and women have that in their character (See: Any Formula 1 Driver).

It's when it extends to targeting people outside of your immediate opponents.  Starting press rumours about Greg Lemond being a drunk.  Calling Emma O'Reiily a whore, purely to discredit her testimony.  He went way beyond what other athletes regard as "any cost".

Nothing I've seen regarding his "apologies" make me think he is sorry about anything but being caught.

+1

The fact he doped isn't an issue to me.  Its the way he targetted and ruined other people is what makes him out as unpleasant.

The book 'Wheelmen' is interesting, as it highlights a bit more of what an unpleasant individual he is.

How does one define clean, as every era seems to have something where there is an edge? 

Was LeMond's era totally clean?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1956 on: 28 January, 2015, 08:55:25 pm »
No. Cortisone was everywhere, along with older drugs. EPO finished off Lemond's career because the also-rans became so much faster.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1957 on: 28 January, 2015, 08:59:59 pm »
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1958 on: 29 January, 2015, 12:46:43 am »
The film 'Breaking Away' was an important influence in US cycling culture.
Quote
When a professional Italian cycling team comes to town for a racing event, Dave is thrilled to be competing with them. However, the Italians become irked when Dave is able to keep up with and even speak to them in Italian during the race. One of them jams a tire pump in Dave's wheel, causing him to crash, which leaves him disillusioned and depressed. Although he had been upset with his own father earlier for his unethical business practices, Dave now realizes that everyone cheats. Dave's friends persuade him to join them in forming a locals' cycling team for the Little 500. Dave's parents provide T-shirts with the name "Cutters" on them. Mr. Stoller remarks how, when he was a young stonecutter, he was proud to help provide the material to construct the university, yet never felt comfortable being on campus.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_Away

There's conjunction of moral, class and fatherhood issues in Lance's story that chimes well with that story.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1959 on: 29 January, 2015, 12:53:29 am »

The film 'Breaking Away' was an important influence in US cycling culture.
Quote
When a professional Italian cycling team comes to town for a racing event, Dave is thrilled to be competing with them. However, the Italians become irked when Dave is able to keep up with and even speak to them in Italian during the race. One of them jams a tire pump in Dave's wheel, causing him to crash, which leaves him disillusioned and depressed. Although he had been upset with his own father earlier for his unethical business practices, Dave now realizes that everyone cheats. Dave's friends persuade him to join them in forming a locals' cycling team for the Little 500. Dave's parents provide T-shirts with the name "Cutters" on them. Mr. Stoller remarks how, when he was a young stonecutter, he was proud to help provide the material to construct the university, yet never felt comfortable being on campus.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_Away

There's conjunction of moral, class and fatherhood issues in Lance's story that chimes well with that story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=84924572&x-yt-ts=1422411861&v=J1jzs6dk4bs#t=58

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1960 on: 29 January, 2015, 06:52:40 am »
For all the righteous indignation we display after the fact, professional sport is a spectacle; an entertainment. We watch it because we enjoy that spectacle and get off on the competitive element. Most of us have no hope or desire of emulating the participants. If one of our heroes 'cheats' (or at least does so better than his rivals), it might spoil the thing temporarily if we like to believe in the Corinthian principles, but who's deceiving whom? Self-deception (or suspension of disbelief) is at the core of all sports supporters; the idea that any of it is uninfluenced by greed, mendacity, the sheer need to be better at any cost, is laughable. Lance is a particularly dislikable example of the breed, but he was also bloody successful and great to watch. I don't like having my nose rubbed in the fact that I liked to watch cheats cheating, but that's what it adds up to. It's up to sports authorities to do their best to enforce their rules, but if the spectacle's good (and I can be arsed), I'll watch it anyway.

Remember, even the (few?) guys who don't break the rules are doping. Anything that improves performance through supplementation or pain relief is doping, to all intents and purposes. It's the scale, the effect and the cost that varies. I limit myself to beer and ibuprofen, but both of those enhance my performance or psychology. So watch out, Wiggo, I'm gunning for you!

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1961 on: 29 January, 2015, 07:16:48 am »
I look forward to bike races where the leaders scatter tacks behind them, hook their opponents into the hedges, have their fans mug their opponents in a quiet part of the course and themselves hitch lifts to near the finish line. All good entertainment (the crowd need somebody in a black hat) and the first person across the line wins. That is all that counts.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1962 on: 29 January, 2015, 08:18:26 am »
Wacky Races for real !!
Rust never sleeps

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1963 on: 29 January, 2015, 08:36:03 am »
I look forward to bike races where the leaders scatter tacks behind them, hook their opponents into the hedges, have their fans mug their opponents in a quiet part of the course and themselves hitch lifts to near the finish line. All good entertainment (the crowd need somebody in a black hat) and the first person across the line wins. That is all that counts.

Like the early TdFs, for example? Or, in fact, any of the Grand Tours before TV?

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1964 on: 29 January, 2015, 09:39:05 am »
If cycle sport is to continue thriving in the UK our heros must be seen as part of a new, clean era. If people like Wiggo and Froome turn out to have been doping I think the sport will take a nose dive. For me this is a Last Chance Saloon. I hope we have turned a corner. I am sure there are some dopers still to be weeded out, but if I get the clear impression that doping is still the norm I will turn my back on the sport for good. If it cannot be done clean it is not worth it. I have long since modified my views on the "victories" of Indurain, Pantani, Ulrich and others. Like Armstrong, they are now non-entities who did nothing that counts for me. That long history of the Tour, Paris-Roubaix etc seems mirky and not to be celebrated. It is best forgotten. If there is anything that is worth anything in this sport it is post-Armstrong and into the future. But cycling is much bigger than cycle racing, and my opinions about the sport side of it do not influence my love of riding my bike. That is what matters to me.


fuzzy

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1965 on: 29 January, 2015, 09:57:29 am »
Despite the ire and condemnation directed towards him, could Lance not in fact be viewed as the possible Messiah? The Saviour of Cycling?

Bear with me for a moment here.

Lance cheated without a shadow of a doubt. So did many others who raced at the same time, BL (before Lance) and AL (after Lance).

Many were challenged but Lance put up the most vociferous and below the belt fight. When it all caught up with him, he suffered the most public and humiliating downfall. This brought the specter of chemically and medically enhanced cheating right out to front and center, the biggest outcry and backlash that sport has ever seen (probably).

As a result of this outcry, cycling was, and remains, under the microscope. This has probably reduced the incidence of racing cyclists taking the doping route. The fallout and scrutiny of our sport, from the Armstrong Affair will be long lasting and as a result, the urge to dope may be tempered by the fear of discovery.

Perhaps Lance has done us a favour.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1966 on: 29 January, 2015, 10:06:37 am »
Or perhaps USADA did us a favour by being so bloody-minded about it.  I know that before they finally nailed Lance, I'd got to the "We'll never know one way or the other, just give up and drop it, guys" stage.  However, they turned out to be right and what we've seen is due to their perseverance.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1967 on: 29 January, 2015, 10:15:48 am »
Or perhaps USADA did us a favour by being so bloody-minded about it.  I know that before they finally nailed Lance, I'd got to the "We'll never know one way or the other, just give up and drop it, guys" stage.  However, they turned out to be right and what we've seen is due to their perseverance.

I'm just surprised that anyone who has followed pro road racing could think it was ever 'clean'. 

Perhaps the Yanks taking up the sport will usher in a new era, though the examples of baseball and American football don't lead inexorably to that conclusion.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1968 on: 29 January, 2015, 11:41:11 am »
I look forward to bike races where the leaders scatter tacks behind them, hook their opponents into the hedges, have their fans mug their opponents in a quiet part of the course and themselves hitch lifts to near the finish line. All good entertainment (the crowd need somebody in a black hat) and the first person across the line wins. That is all that counts.

Like the early TdFs, for example? Or, in fact, any of the Grand Tours before TV?

Why do you think I chose those particular examples?

The point is, those particular forms of cheating occurred in the past and were pretty much eliminated, save for very minor argy-bargy in sprints. Doping is cheating and can be reduced to a sufficiently low level that it doesn't make pro racing a farce, as is currently the case.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1969 on: 29 January, 2015, 05:04:29 pm »
Except that can never be the case.

Anti-doping is reactive, not proactive. Samples are not fed into a big machine that either flashes up a big red bulb with 'Doper' written under it, or a green one that says 'Clean'. Samples are tested for specific known things. If things are not known there may be no test, and even when they are known the development of a test may take some time (it took over 10 years of solid abuse before EPO was detectable).

The bio-passport appears to constrict blood manipulation, but some view it as inefficient.

Dopers can always stay ahead of the game, therefore doping will always happen.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1970 on: 29 January, 2015, 05:08:13 pm »
I want doping  to be at a low enough level that absurd race results aren't endemic, like now.

EPO was detectable for years before a test was accepted, mainly because they were waiting for Ferrari to produce a test and rejected tests already developed in other countries.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1971 on: 29 January, 2015, 05:24:28 pm »
Of course it was detectable. Its a naturally occurring substance. That wasn't the issue, it trying to determine the difference between natural and synthetic epo, and that didn't happen until 2000.

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1972 on: 29 January, 2015, 05:46:18 pm »
Well, that approach would also rule out tennis, golf, rugby, football, boxing, swimming, skiing, gymnastics, baseball, american football, wrestling etc etc...

I think the big shock will be Jamaican Athletics.

They came to dominate sprinting but have absolutely no advantage over the US, in terms of training, sports science, pool of available athletes, athletes' body type or potential, other than a less stringent drugs-testing regime.

I would not be at all surprised to find a "Dr Ferrari" in Jamaican athletics.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1973 on: 29 January, 2015, 05:57:23 pm »
I would not be at all surprised to find a "Dr Ferrari" in Jamaican athletics.

He's called Angel Heredia/Hernandez
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

Re: Bye Lance
« Reply #1974 on: 29 January, 2015, 09:05:19 pm »
Well, that approach would also rule out tennis, golf, rugby, football, boxing, swimming, skiing, gymnastics, baseball, american football, wrestling etc etc...

I think the big shock will be Jamaican Athletics.

They came to dominate sprinting but have absolutely no advantage over the US, in terms of training, sports science, pool of available athletes, athletes' body type or potential, other than a less stringent drugs-testing regime.

I would not be at all surprised to find a "Dr Ferrari" in Jamaican athletics.

I find it inconceivable that anyone should be shocked at any forthcoming revelations of doping in Jamaican athletics. Only slightly less surprising than revelations about distance athletes that train with Kenyans or with Salazar . Not a few high profile athletes have failed to stay in the hotel they said they would during off season training in his camp.
R
I should say that I love athletics. David Rudisha's Olympic final world record was one of the most beautiful runs I have ever been privileged to see. What is sad is that no one knows if the field is level, until we know someone has cheate.  The doubt makes it even harder new entrants to survive and integrity is an uncommon virtue. Still, it's a market and that's how they work if unrestrained.