Can you honk on a touring bike?

[tom_e]

Never been a problem for me with just rear panniers. But I don't do the throw-the-bike-from-side-to-side thing, never seen the point. I just stand up and pedal slowly.

[drossall]

I can on my Mercian with four panniers. However, it takes time to adjust if I have been riding an unladen bike, and then time to adjust back. The laden bike doesn't move from side to side as easily, so it can feel unstable - it's just the need to compensate in reality.

[Crumbling Nick]

When I'm standing on the pedals, I tend to keep the bike fairly striaght anyway.  No point in wasting my energy throwing metal around unnecessarily.

It's not wasting energy if the purpose is to propel the bike as quickly as possible (otherwise racers wouldn't do it, and they do it to extremis when sprinting), but it may well be over the top when touring or shopping!

Yes it is wasting energy. 

Do you have experimental evidence to support such a sweeping statement? It might be true at high cadences e.g. sprinting, but even if it were, would that be relevant to normal riding on a touring bike (with or without gears) honking at half the sprinters' cadence or less?

Those pro racers would use energy more efficiently if they held their bikes straight in the sprints.  However, they sacrifice efficiency for power - if they kept to within the envelope where their upper bodies were able to hold the bikes straight, they wouldn't be operating at full leg power.  Conversely, if they pumped enough weights to be able to hold their bikes straight in sprints, they'd have quite a lot of extra kilos in upper body weight to carry up hills, and they may as well have spent the time sprint training anyway.

I'm guessing there is experimental evidence for this part. Is it in the public domain?

[Panoramix]

When I'm standing on the pedals, I tend to keep the bike fairly striaght anyway.  No point in wasting my energy throwing metal around unnecessarily.

It's not wasting energy if the purpose is to propel the bike as quickly as possible (otherwise racers wouldn't do it, and they do it to extremis when sprinting), but it may well be over the top when touring or shopping!

Yes it is wasting energy.  Those pro racers would use energy more efficiently if they held their bikes straight in the sprints.  However, they sacrifice efficiency for power - if they kept to within the envelope where their upper bodies were able to hold the bikes straight, they wouldn't be operating at full leg power.  Conversely, if they pumped enough weights to be able to hold their bikes straight in sprints, they'd have quite a lot of extra kilos in upper body weight to carry up hills, and they may as well have spent the time sprint training anyway.

Apart from the extra air drag, I think that it isn't; a bit like a pendulum in a vacuum isn't wasting energy. There was this paper giving all the dynamic equation of a bicycle (disappeared with my old computer so can't link to it) and it was showing how roll, yaw and forward motion were all linked together.

Though I agree throwing a touring bike side to side isn't such a good idea.

[Ian H]

Never been a problem for me with just rear panniers. But I don't do the throw-the-bike-from-side-to-side thing, never seen the point. I just stand up and pedal slowly.

Yup. Honking on a laden bike requires a different technique: lowish cadence, keep the bike steady, moving your weight over each stroke pedal. In theory it's a waste of energy; in practice, we're not machines and an occasional change of position and technique can be useful.

[drossall]

Surely, if you're standing, most of the weight is on your downward-pedalling foot. Get the weight to one side and you'll fall off, so it doesn't really seem possible that people honk without leaning the bike. You have to lean the bike, so that the pedal is above the centre-line of the bike.

In practice it will be a bit more complex than that, but that seems like the principle.

[Ian H]

Surely, if you're standing, most of the weight is on your downward-pedalling foot. Get the weight to one side and you'll fall off, so it doesn't really seem possible that people honk without leaning the bike. You have to lean the bike, so that the pedal is above the centre-line of the bike.

In practice it will be a bit more complex than that, but that seems like the principle.

Yes, but I'm not trying to describe the physics of it, just how it feels to the rider.

[Jaded]

Surely if there is a direct vertical line between the foot, BB and where the tyre meets the tarmac that is putting down more force than if there is an off-vertical line...

[GruB]

Honking = dancing.

souplese is often referred to as dancing on the pedals.  Being flexible, supple, pliable versatile.

I do not associate honking with dancing.  More head banging than dancing.  Exerting the most pressure you can by standing up and stomping on the pedals because you cannot spin.  Not pretty and the best way to get your heart rate to scream.

[Charlotte]

There was this paper giving all the dynamic equation of a bicycle...

Raw Science by andygates, on Flickr

[Panoramix]

There was this paper giving all the dynamic equation of a bicycle...

Raw Science by andygates, on Flickr

That looks like the equation i was thinking about, if I remember well in the Discussion of the paper they were explaining why oscillating the bike from side to side doesn't waste kinetic energy.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Honking = dancing.

souplese is often referred to as dancing on the pedals.  Being flexible, supple, pliable versatile.

I do not associate honking with dancing.  More head banging than dancing.  Exerting the most pressure you can by standing up and stomping on the pedals because you cannot spin.  Not pretty and the best way to get your heart rate to scream.

I thought dancing was a literal translation of the French term, and was used in (UK) English till the late 80s or thereabouts when the American term honking took over.

[clarion]

Generally true.

Dancing Uphill is the title of a biography of the british rider Charlie Holland.

[GruB]

My point is that when you are honking you are not being subtle on the pedals at all.
You are not dancing.  You are stomping.
Souplese of a top climber is beautiful to watch but honking is pure desperation.

[Jaded]

Chuffing boring dancing then, hardcore trance.

[Cudzoziemiec]

So, honking is to souplesse what the mosh pit is to ballet. 

[GruB]

That is it 

[MercuryKev]

I'm currently on a wee bike tour using my Sabbath September with a rack fitted. I weighed my panniers before I left and they were 17kg. I've been honking up some of NW Scotland's most scenic hills and what I've found it that smoothness is your friend. Once you get jerky the weigh at the back starts kicking about but of you are more gentle it's as stable as honking in laden. Ymmv.

[MSeries]

I was thinking of this thread when i was on my last tour. I was not fully laden, just two small panniers, not full and a bar bag. I could easily honk my Hewitt Chiltern and I am pretty sure I honked it OK in the Alps in 2007 which four panniers which where full and a bar bag. I definately rode hands off on that trip. I use narrow handlebars and tend not to rock my bike from side to side much when honking anyway, rather just use my slight weight to assist my pedalling.

So I wonder if the compact frame of the Cheviot is to blame for the wagging.

[Chris N]

So I wonder if the compact frame of the Cheviot is to blame for the wagging.

Seems unlikely. Small triangles are stiffer than big triangles. There may be other factors involved though: tube diameter, wall thickness, tapering, etc.