Author Topic: Bus lane petition, please sign  (Read 8292 times)

Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #25 on: 29 May, 2008, 12:57:45 am »
I signed the petition when the first emails were circulated amongst cyclists.

I signed to "yes, allow motorbikes in".   As per my post on the other thread it makes sense and the previous studies show that by allowing motorcyclists into lanes it makes it safer for pedestrians, cyclists, motorcyclists and I think motorists too; and not only on that road but surrounding roads.

Come on everybody, sign up too, let the motorcyclists into the bus lanes.  Let's get some safety out there.

Craig

Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #26 on: 29 May, 2008, 01:56:23 am »
The bus lane's already a "socially better than cars" lane.
Or an "environmentally friendly" / "sustainable transport" lane. Whether motorbikes are much more environmentally friendly than cars is questionable.

So far the arguments against motorcycles seem to be (1) they frightens I, master Frodo! and (2) those evil bikers/mopedistas are bad people.  I've yet to see a cogent reason not to allow them to share the space.
Not all cyclists are as confident or as experienced as you are.
Allowing motorbikes in bus lanes would encourage people to travel by motorbike instead of bus / train / bike. I don't see why promoting the use of private motor vehicles in cities is seen to be a good thing.

As per my post on the other thread it makes sense and the previous studies show that by allowing motorcyclists into lanes it makes it safer for pedestrians, cyclists, motorcyclists and I think motorists too; and not only on that road but surrounding roads.
Which previous studies?

Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #27 on: 29 May, 2008, 03:10:30 am »
Craig, there was a lot of discussion - including reference to the studies - on ACF but having had my account deleted without explanation I am no longer able to log on or search...   Have a search yourself?

spindrift

Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #28 on: 29 May, 2008, 07:37:17 am »
the previous studies show that by allowing motorcyclists into lanes it makes it safer for pedestrians, cyclists, motorcyclists

I'm afraid not.

 Bristol allowed PTWs in bus lanes and a third of cyclists who responded to a survey said they found motorbikes to be threatening, aggressive and dangerous.


rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #29 on: 29 May, 2008, 08:34:19 am »
Did the other two-thirds say they were friendly, cuddly and safe?  Do you have a link to the survey?

I'm sitting on the fence on this one, since I don't live in London.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #30 on: 29 May, 2008, 08:53:31 am »
And I think it's fair to hypothesise that a person who dislikes something is far more likely to respond to a survey than somebody who is not fussed. So if 2/3rds of respondents were happy/neutral, that suggests that (pure guess coming up) 80-90% of actual users were.

That sounds like a ringing endorsement to me.  :thumbsup:

Also, note that Nutty's post commented on actual effects on safety, but your response deals with user perceptions. Two entirely different things.  ::-)
Life is too important to be taken seriously.

Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #31 on: 29 May, 2008, 09:01:06 am »
Another thought:

Many of the anti-PTW commentators have observed that the perceived problem is with what are essentailly car drivers on mopeds and that there's been a step-change in the volumes of this class of user recently.

It could be argued that the problem is therefore one of inexperience. These people aren't yet used to the problems faced by two-wheelers (whether muscle or petrol powered). With time, they will learn. In particular, if they use the same facilities as cyclists, they will learn about the hazards that cyclists face, which will also improve their awareness when in a car.

Futher, if a motorist in the queue alongside the bus lane is considering a sneaky lane-change, he's going to be far more careful if he's got a PTW buzzing past every few seconds than if he has a cyclist going through every ten minutes. More careful drivers improve our safety.
Life is too important to be taken seriously.

spindrift

Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #32 on: 29 May, 2008, 09:15:55 am »
In 2004, there were 1,059 pedestrians hit by a motorcycle. Of these:
· 20 were killed, and
· 229 were seriously injured [1]
There were no bikers killed in these collisions. [2]
In the same year, there were 253 collisions involving a pedal cycle and motorcycle. Of these:
· There were 226 pedal cyclist casualties
· One pedal cyclist was killed, and
· 35 pedal cyclists were seriously injured [3]
There were no bikers killed in these collisions. [4]
The fact that there were no bikers killed in any of these incidents shows that regardless of blame, people on foot or bikes come off worse in crashes with motorcycles.
Although motorbikes pose a much lesser risk to people on foot and on bicycles than cars do, the figures above show that they do injure and kill people.

Motorcyclists and dangers to other vulnerable road users : Brake - the Road Safety Charity


One month ago:
Cyclist killed in road accident

From the archive, first published Wednesday 18th Apr 2007.
A CYCLIST was killed in Southend today following a collision with a motorbike rider.

http://archive.clactonandfrintongaze...18/248758.html


Until now, however, just about everyone else on the road – with the exception of other cyclists – I've merely considered a nuisance: pedestrians darting across lines of stationary traffic without looking out for cyclists, regular bus drivers who insist on intimidating me by sitting on my back wheel – and, until now, motorbikes.
But over the last few weeks, I've experienced a string of incidents where motorcyclists have joined the attempted murder club and, I've quickly come to realise that these motorised two-wheel maniacs can be the worst of the lot.

The usual dangerous encounters are when cycling down the outside of a line of traffic, where the chain of events will go something like this: motorcyclist rides up behind cyclist and starts revving his engine in an intimidating manner.

Eventually, motorcyclist attempts dangerous manoeuvre, pulling out to pass cyclist just as another vehicle is heading towards them at speed in the opposite carriageway. Motorbike then sharply cuts back in, forcing aforementioned cyclist to brake suddenly or swerve into oncoming traffic.


Other fun with motorbikes includes the regular games of "chicken", when you're riding down the outside of a line of traffic and come across a biker doing the same in the opposite direction. Can you guess who swerves first – the guy on top of a 1,000cc engine or the bloke on the flimsy piece of carbon fibre?



Worst of all is the number of accidents I've nearly had when motorbikes have forced cars to pull in because they first hear, then see, them overtaking them on a narrow road. If you're cycling across Tower Bridge, for example, there isn't a whole lot of room on either side of each car, so as soon as a driver hears a motorbike roaring down the outside, he naturally pulls in, nearly hitting the kerb as well as any unsuspecting cyclists on the inside.
So the safer option for cyclists is to come down the outside of the lane too – in which case you risk playing your own part in encouraging drivers to splat cyclists on their left, and will also find yourself caught up among the intimidating motorcyclists once again.



Motorbikes – especially scooters – also have a nasty habit of using cycle lanes when it suits them, and will almost always sit in the advance stop sections for bicycles at traffic lights.

 This too can prove dangerous, trapping cyclists on the inside, ready to be squashed by any left-turning vehicles.


If you are lucky enough to safely jump the lights, you can also be sure that on main roads during the commuter rush you'll suddenly be engulfed by a fleet of motorbikes as soon as the lights change – and most of them will be involved in some sort of macho race.

 Needless to say, watching out for cyclists is never upper-most in their minds in the testosterone-fuelled battle to see who's got the biggest... engine.
There's still talk of motorbikes soon being allowed to use bus lanes, along with cyclists and taxis – and I hope to God it never happens.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...mn-396954.html

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #33 on: 29 May, 2008, 09:35:17 am »
Most of that article is about overtaking on the right, not MCists using bus lanes.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Gandalf

  • Each snowflake in an avalanche pleads not guilty
Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #34 on: 29 May, 2008, 10:09:33 am »
Most of that article is about overtaking on the right, not MCists using bus lanes.

Indeed, but the behaviour described certainly resonates with my experience. 

I dread to think what it will be like if similar selfish shenaningans are transposed to the bus lane, which at the moment does offer some refuge.

ABlipInContinuity

Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #35 on: 29 May, 2008, 10:22:21 am »
Having read and considered the arguements, I'm sorry but I don't agree with motorcyclists being able to use bus lanes.

I think the biggest factor for me is the that it will deter cyclists, particularly inexperienced cyclists, from using them.

Secondly, many motorcycles are no better environmentally than cars. Most are not catalysed. Many are performance tuned and have MPG figures comparable to cars.

Personal encounters with motorcyclists and moped riders illegally using bus lanes serve to reinforce my view. Although I accept these bus lane users are probably not representative of the entire motorcycling fraternitity.

I don't think my argument is that strong but on balance I thought it was right to sign the petition. Particularly as the petition is opposed to, specifically, a 'snap decision'.

I'm not opposed to more trials and careful analysis followed then by a consultation.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #36 on: 29 May, 2008, 10:28:30 am »
I see your point, but I think that black cabs using the bus lanes are more intimidating to novice cyclists than m/c simply because they take up the whole width of the lane, and drive very close - behind and to the side as they past - probably because the driver is used to squeezing through small spaces.
Getting there...

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #37 on: 29 May, 2008, 10:30:12 am »
Was the brake article written for the daily mail?

The figure brake quote for injuries from motorcyclists to pedestrians and cyclist seems to conclude that all the incidents that blame is laid with the motorcycle only.  So no pedestrian has ever stepped out without looking or cyclist complete a manouver without looking?

(By the way I have colided with people on the motorbike and on the cycle.  I also colided with two different cyclists both jumping red lights.  Wonder if they were included in the stats?)

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #38 on: 29 May, 2008, 10:33:00 am »
I see your point, but I think that black cabs using the bus lanes are more intimidating to novice cyclists than m/c simply because they take up the whole width of the lane, and drive very close - behind and to the side as they past - probably because the driver is used to squeezing through small spaces.

I have to agree with you, Ive been buzzed by busses and cabs worries me.  Some bus drivers think its a game to see how close they can get.
 :demon:
Don't get me started on royal mail vans.

rae

Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #39 on: 29 May, 2008, 10:39:14 am »
Any novice cyclist that is intimidated by a motorcyclist will be scared shitless (with some justification) by the antics of the average bendy bus.  I've been cycling in London for about 15 years, and I still get frightened by them. 

The only negative comment I have about motorcyclists is that following them in heavy traffic is a pain - they are a good few inches wider than a bike, and they get stuck in gaps that I could easily get through.  Most of them do get out of the way when they realise you are behind them. 

Quote
The figure brake quote for injuries from motorcyclists to pedestrians and cyclist seems to conclude that all the incidents that blame is laid with the motorcycle only.  So no pedestrian has ever stepped out without looking or cyclist complete a manouver without looking? 

You must be new to cycling forums.  Cyclists are always blameless....   ;)

Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #40 on: 29 May, 2008, 11:35:37 am »
And I think it's fair to hypothesise that a person who dislikes something is far more likely to respond to a survey than somebody who is not fussed. So if 2/3rds of respondents were happy/neutral, that suggests that (pure guess coming up) 80-90% of actual users were.

That sounds like a ringing endorsement to me.  :thumbsup:

Also, note that Nutty's post commented on actual effects on safety, but your response deals with user perceptions. Two entirely different things.  ::-)

Thank you.

Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #41 on: 29 May, 2008, 01:38:36 pm »
Weird, I hardly ever have problems with bendy buses.  Buses are my least worrying vehicle type, on my journey.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

spindrift

Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #42 on: 29 May, 2008, 01:55:58 pm »
hang on, if a third of people have a problem with the move and two thirds don't then it means 30% of cyclists feel threatened by motorbikes. That's not a good thing however you look at it.

Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #43 on: 29 May, 2008, 02:40:04 pm »
hang on, if a third of people have a problem with the move and two thirds don't then it means 30% of cyclists feel threatened by motorbikes. That's not a good thing however you look at it.

As I said above, 1/3 of respondents is not the same as 1/3 of users. It's a self-selecting sample.

Think about it. If you put out a general survey asking motorists if they think cyclists should be banned from the road, what pecentage of 'yes' votes do you think you'd get?  And who do you think will be most motivated to respond? The 'average' motorist, or the rabid anti-cycling cadre?

I rest my case ::-)

Anyway, I'm tired of debating this. Consider my input exhausted.  8)
Life is too important to be taken seriously.

valkyrie

  • Look at the state of your face!
    • West Lothian Clarion
Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #44 on: 30 May, 2008, 11:52:31 am »
I'm in favour of motorbikes in bus lanes. I've just read through this thread for the first time and it seems to divide into two camps -

1. People (like myself) who ride bikes with and without engines, who don't see any problem with all two wheelers sharing a lane.

2. People who don't like motorbikes who don't want them in bus lanes because they're scary.

The point I want to make is - given that these lanes are called "Bus Lanes", why does everyone seem to assume that we as cyclists have a god given right to use them? London could reduce accidents in Bus Lanes by banning cyclists from them, couldn't they? And if the growth in PTW usage continues until it reaches continental (like Paris or Rome) levels then we could reach a point where it would be inevitable that PTWs would be allowed to use the bus lanes. If all the cyclists in the land have signed petitions saying it's way too dangerous to share then we could find ourselves shut out of the bus lanes for our own good. I'd rather ride in a bus lane with motorbikes than be condemned to following nonsense "cycle routes" that go the long way round and take twice as long.
World Class Excuses for Piss-Poor Performances

Tiger

Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #45 on: 30 May, 2008, 04:38:03 pm »
When I am on my Mc I certainly want to use the bus lanes - they are fast and very convenient although clogged up by obstreperous self righteous cyclists.

However when on my cycle I reckon Mc's are a menace being driven by yobs and oiks.

The ideal system would change according to my selected mode of transport. Trust all agree.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #46 on: 30 May, 2008, 06:47:34 pm »
Jean-Paul Sartre:

"L'enfer, c'est les autres"
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

fruitcake

  • some kind of fruitcake
Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #47 on: 30 May, 2008, 07:36:04 pm »
Yebbut why would a mo bike want to pass on the inside?
I don't like doing it on my bicycle, I'd always pass on the outside if I had the acceleration.

Re: Bus lane petition, please sign
« Reply #48 on: 01 June, 2008, 05:54:03 pm »
I think it would work well if all motorbikers rode carefully. But a number of them don't. There was an uprise in the number of mtorbikes on the road a few years ago, which was though to have come about by increased congestion. I think that these relative newcomers are probably the worst, generally speaking.
It's the same problem as is from any problem road user. It's not speed that kills. It's the lack of patience. Speed is just a symptom.
If the roads were policed better, then I'd definitely say let the motorbikers in. I still think it would work to let them into bus lanes as it is now. If it encourages people to ride a motorbike, then it will free up more roadspace and the need will be reduced.
I find that motorbikers are generally good. It's just the wreckless who think of motorbiking as an adrenaline kick and use public roads for their thrills. Then it can get out of hand, especially when there is a group. I've had some bad overtakes on the apex of bends by speeding motorbikers. I wouldn't stop to spit on them if they crashed. But I find that most of them are good.
I'd rather not have an impatient motorist behind me. But if I had the choice of their machine, it would be a motorbike. I've never had a motorbiker try to intimidate me before.