Bridge as a Sport

[Hot Flatus]

Jeez is this still going?

Fact:  Bridge is not a sport, and chess isn't important.

[caerau]

I saw this on the news the other day and the guy who was pro-this had a specific intention in mind which everyone has ignored (apologies, if not here, I've not read much of the backlog).


Their intention was to enable university bridge teams to play abroad. It seems that university bridge teams can't compete in world title tournaments as the decision on who gets to go to such things seems to be down to the UK sports council (there was a specific organisation but I can't remember who) and since they classify bridge as not a sport then they are barred from entering international competitions.


I have some sympathy for their tactic of getting it classified as a sport to get around what seems to be a ludicrous piece of red tape preventing what they actually want to do which is just play bridge against the Scandiwegians or whoever.


Of course it isn't a sport and I don't think they even think this themselves, it's a legal tactic to get around a silly piece of red tape.

[Wowbagger]

Jeez is this still going?

Fart:  Bridge is not a sport, and chess isn't important.

I corrected your typo. 

[Dibdib]

since they classify bridge as not a sport then they are barred from entering international competitions.

Is anyone actually barring bridge players from entering these competitions, or just not providing taxpayer funding them to do so?

As has already been mentioned upthread, this seems to essentially boil down to finding a compromise between the people who want funding for their "thing" and the extent to which the rest of society is willing to provide it. Like it or not, a line has to be drawn somewhere and inevitably some people are going to be disappointed.

[mattc]

Of course it isn't a sport and I don't think they even think this themselves, it's a legal tactic to get around a silly piece of red tape.

Indeed. And they probably dont think chess, snooker or darts are sports either.

Worryingly, I strongyl suspect Wow DOES think chess is a real sport! he's certainly posted at great length on the subject, over many years.

[LEE]

I think jsabine helped us with the answer to this 3 posts in.

If someone totally unqualified in the activity can adequately stand in for you, whilst you provide instructions on what to do via a radio-mic, then it's not a sport.

The World Bridge champion could instruct me what to do with my cards and I could therefore do quite well in a game of bridge.

I'd rather not face up to a heavyweight Boxer whilst a boxing expert shouted "hit him...hit him.." from over my shoulder.

That takes care of sedentary "sports" as well, such as Darts and Snooker, where World champion instruction is not as useful as being World champion standard.  Then again, do Darts and Snooker receive funding?

[Ben T]

I'm not that familiar with much chess-playing software, but Andy was using Winboard. The advantage of picking up his piece before his opponent had moved was purely to gain time.

In physical chess, given that tournament play requires clocks, then there is a definite advantage to physical dexterity in the placing of the pieces. If you are clumsy and you knock pieces over when you move they have to be replaced while your clock is ticking and that will be a disadvantage. Furthermore, you are obliged to move the piece and press the clock with the same hand, and a smooth, efficient hand movement will gain you quite a few seconds over a long game, which could prove critical.

Maybe, but I think it's insignificant.
Chess is *designed* such that the average person is able to move the pieces without knocking them over because that isn't meant to be part of the skill.
You wouldn't want to rely on, or indeed even spend your training time practicing that as a tactic. It wouldn't see you through.
If I was an absolute master of physical dexterity, but only an average Joe Public at chess, and was up against Garry Kasparov when he was a bit pissed so was a bit clumsy, I still don't think I'd stand much of a chance.

[mattc]

Ben & Lee,  excellent analysis 

[Ben T]

I think jsabine helped us with the answer to this 3 posts in.

If someone totally unqualified in the activity can adequately stand in for you, whilst you provide instructions on what to do via a radio-mic, then it's not a sport.

The World Bridge champion could instruct me what to do with my cards and I could therefore do quite well in a game of bridge.

I'd rather not face up to a heavyweight Boxer whilst a boxing expert shouted "hit him...hit him.." from over my shoulder.

That takes care of sedentary "sports" as well, such as Darts and Snooker, where World champion instruction is not as useful as being World champion standard.  Then again, do Darts and Snooker receive funding?

"I said HIT HIM, for God's sake! Not RUN!"

[caerau]

since they classify bridge as not a sport then they are barred from entering international competitions.

Is anyone actually barring bridge players from entering these competitions, or just not providing taxpayer funding them to do so?

As has already been mentioned upthread, this seems to essentially boil down to finding a compromise between the people who want funding for their "thing" and the extent to which the rest of society is willing to provide it. Like it or not, a line has to be drawn somewhere and inevitably some people are going to be disappointed.

They never mentioned funding on the report I saw - Interesting and valid point 

[Mr Larrington]

I believe a Mr E Hemingway may have had something to say on this matter.

[spesh]

I believe a Mr E Hemingway may have had something to say on this matter.

Apparently, mileage varies on whether the quote you allude to can actually be attributed to Hemingway:

http://www.timelesshemingway.com/content/quotationsfaq#threesports

[Jaded]

Yeah, but are women any good at bridge? Hmmm?

[caerau]

 

[Wowbagger]

Yeah, but are women any good at bridge? Hmmm?

In my limited experience of bridge tournaments, the sexes are much more equally represented than in chess. Rixi Marcus was Graun bridge correspondent for many years. My late Aunt Lucy was a titled bridge player. I don't know how good she was, and never played against her: I understand that bridge titles can be achieved through great longevity rather than through attaining a particular standard of play, as they are in chess.

The couple who ran the bridge events at the Mind Sports Olympiad used to spend a good deal of the year at sea, running events professionally on cruise ships. It seems that bridge appeals to a higher class of person than does chess...

[Jakob]

I'm not that familiar with much chess-playing software, but Andy was using Winboard. The advantage of picking up his piece before his opponent had moved was purely to gain time.

In physical chess, given that tournament play requires clocks, then there is a definite advantage to physical dexterity in the placing of the pieces. If you are clumsy and you knock pieces over when you move they have to be replaced while your clock is ticking and that will be a disadvantage. Furthermore, you are obliged to move the piece and press the clock with the same hand, and a smooth, efficient hand movement will gain you quite a few seconds over a long game, which could prove critical.

Definitely a troll....

[jsabine]

Rixi Markus was Graun bridge correspondent for many years.

I understand that bridge titles can be achieved through great longevity rather than through attaining a particular standard of play, as they are in chess.

Not exactly: you acquire points by getting placed in tournaments, then points mean prizestitles. The system differentiates between local points (which you can get from club events) and national points (which accrue from doing well against external competition), while the more prestigious the tournament (so generally the stronger the competition) the more points are on offer. I can't remember if your tally is a lifetime one or whether points expire - in any case, if you win big tournaments in rapid succession, you'll be GrandMaster Flash a lot more quickly than if you come eighth in a local one twice a year.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Bridge has applied to become an Olympic sport. So has chess. More sensibly (IMO), so have tug of war, sumo, baseball, karate, squash and various other things which (I think) are sports.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jun/12/snooker-chess-bridge-apply-2020-olympics-tokyo-tug-of-war-baseball

[Legs]

Jeez is this still going?

[mattc]

Jeez is this still going?

It died out back in June, but someone tried to kickstart it ...

[Jaded]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34320201 refers, I believe.

[mrcharly-YHT]

How about computer games? Professional teams have coaches, are required to exercise to maintain physical fitness, etc.

Oh, wait, they've invented their own category; e-sports.

Seems sensible.

Lets have b-sports for the card games, chess, go, and suchlike.

I haven't seen any cries from e-sports for funding. Instead, they've source prizemoney from fans. Big prizemoney. The major tournaments have prizes in the millions.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Mind sports is the official term.

The EBU says it has the definition of sport in the 2011 Charities Act on its side - activities "which promote health involving physical or mental skill or exertion" - as well as the International Olympic Committee, which said in 1999 that bridge and chess should be considered "mind sports".

I've no doubt bridge, chess, sudoku, computer games, crosswords, ludo, etc, do promote mental health, but as the bloke from Sport England said:

Phil Smith said Sport England's job was to promote fitness and bridge "isn't getting the nation any fitter".

Going a bit OT, the Glon has a "stupid sports" article on, and I thought this was quite funny about motor sports:

The real problem now is technology. Already some projections suggest that wealthy parts of the world may be moving towards driverless cars within five to 10 years.

Just think how funny and quaint Formula One is going to look if it insists on keeping a driver in there. Look! Look at the funny man moving his “steering wheel” and pressing his pedals! Possibly even before the Qatar 2022 Fifa World Cup rolls around, manned Formula One cars could already have become the sporting equivalent of the landline or the fax machine.

[Peter]

I don't know about that!  It's "entertainment".  We've got guns now but people still box.

[Cudzoziemiec]

If you read the article, you'll see it's hardly meant to be taken seriously.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/22/sports-sport-england-bridge