Time to call a halt to the Grand National?

[Feline]

@Feline - what percentage of racehorses have a bloodline value and see their days out in stud nirvana? I was always under the impression that - particularly in flat racing - the vast majority were on the scrap heap after a pretty short career. But all I know is from the other side of the rails so I may well be wrong.

If you're talking about racers that don't go on to race in the 'top' races, then yes most are retired after a few years and sold on to the highest bidder. Many are retrained for other uses, some go to organisations that specialise in rehoming ex-racers (and the industry does help fund these initiatives), some are not so lucky. Most of the horses racing in the Grand National have led exceptional racing careers are are way above average in value (and in many cases sentimental value also). I've seen owners spend many thousands on a horse they have affection for just to put it out to pasture afterwards. YMMV.

[simonp]

I read the article about the fatalities and noticed that Synchronised was a gelding. Once I’d looked that up (I had an idea, but wanted to check) I realised that might have reduced the breeding value somewhat. Not that it would make any difference anyway if the injury was untreatable.

[ferret]

at the moment we have 7 ex race horses, 1 from the Godolphin yard ridden by Frankie Dettori, 1 ridden by AP, the others various ages and abilities all being re schooled so they can have a decent life away from racing, however at the moment the way things are if any one wants one for about 500 - 1000 quid give me a shout.
Brightwells auctioneers were trying to put a minimum price on the animals at their sales at Ascot to try and put the meat man off, that was 18mths ago,  at the moment even the meat man isn't interested people are giving horses and ponies away as they can't afford to keep them. I believe there was something like 11,000 horses taken out of racing last year,
and as discovered by simonp, geldings are worth nothing, it's only the exceptional mares and very exceptional stallions that have any value after racing. Now is not a good time to be in horses whether leisure, competition or racing,
all the race horses we work with have their passports signed "not for human consumption" so we can't even use that route if we end up with a knackered horse as will happen now and then in our line of work. We had a gelding last year, sold as a yearling for £60,000 we picked him up as a rising 3 year old and unfortunately after much money, time and effort from us and our vet we had to have him destroyed a week after his 4th birthday, all TB's have their official birthday  on the 1st of January regardless off their actual birth date,
     

[Polar Bear]

Paul Nicholls - what a complete arsehole

He goes on about taking risks but doesn't seem to have grasped reality, especially so in that the horse doesn't get a choice whereas any other person generally does when they choose to participate in something that can potentially be dangerous.   

PR isn't his strong point.  Perhaps he has a career in politics beckoning... 

[ferret]

Does the fact that thoroughbreds cannot result from artificial insemination have a bearing? In the sense that the animals have to be physically capable of mating naturally, so it's not simply a case of preserving the genetic material of injured stock.

Frozen semen is transported around the world for breeding purposes, so I don't know were you heard that ?

[AndyK]

Yes, it is a money-driven industry in part, but there is a bit more to it than that behind the scenes.

The whole thing seems money driven to me. No-one watches horse racing for the racing, they watch it for the betting. If it wasn't wholly money driven then no perfectly good but retired horse would be killed for the reason they're too expensive to keep.

[Jaded]

We should probably concentrate on making a tiny bubble of niceness here.

Then we can cover our eyes, stick our fingers in our ears, carry on with the activity that kills most animals  on the planet (being Western) and feel relly good about ourselves.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Does the fact that thoroughbreds cannot result from artificial insemination have a bearing? In the sense that the animals have to be physically capable of mating naturally, so it's not simply a case of preserving the genetic material of injured stock.

Frozen semen is transported around the world for breeding purposes, so I don't know were you heard that ?

ESL is absolutely correct, racing thoroughbreds never use artificial insemination.

It's bloody stupid.

[AndyK]

That's all very interesting, but what has it got to do with the Grand National being a race that regularly kills horses?

[mrcharly-YHT]

I thought ESL's question was relevant. Few of the horses die from their injuries, they are usually killed, ostensibly to stop the animal suffering.

[AndyK]

I thought ESL's question was relevant. Few of the horses die from their injuries, they are usually killed, ostensibly to stop the animal suffering.

The humane way to prevent the animals' suffering is not to run the race in the first place.

[Feline]

I thought ESL's question was relevant. Few of the horses die from their injuries, they are usually killed, ostensibly to stop the animal suffering.

The humane way to prevent the animals' suffering is not to run the race in the first place.

You could say the same about riders in the Tour de France etc.

[AndyK]

I thought ESL's question was relevant. Few of the horses die from their injuries, they are usually killed, ostensibly to stop the animal suffering.

The humane way to prevent the animals' suffering is not to run the race in the first place.

You could say the same about riders in the Tour de France etc.

No, you could say the same for their bicycles. Horses don't get a choice.

[hellymedic]

I thought ESL's question was relevant. Few of the horses die from their injuries, they are usually killed, ostensibly to stop the animal suffering.

The humane way to prevent the animals' suffering is not to run the race in the first place.

You could say the same about riders in the Tour de France etc.

Not quite; TdF riders consent to participate. Animals cannot consent.

[Feline]

I thought ESL's question was relevant. Few of the horses die from their injuries, they are usually killed, ostensibly to stop the animal suffering.

The humane way to prevent the animals' suffering is not to run the race in the first place.

You could say the same about riders in the Tour de France etc.

Not quite; TdF riders consent to participate. Animals cannot consent.

The horses do enjoy to race though.

Playing the devils advocate here, but if we were to take the stance that any sport involving animals in which they could be hurt when they can't consent to participate should be banned, how far would this go? Would children's gymkhana events also be banned? Would you ban Badminton Horse Trials? How about show jumping in the Olympic games? What about the huskies pulling sledges?

By they way (in case anyone was wondering) I am not in favour of horse racing or greyhound racing. I don't like a lot of the people involved in those sports, and I don't like gambling.

[AndyK]

I thought ESL's question was relevant. Few of the horses die from their injuries, they are usually killed, ostensibly to stop the animal suffering.

The humane way to prevent the animals' suffering is not to run the race in the first place.

You could say the same about riders in the Tour de France etc.

Not quite; TdF riders consent to participate. Animals cannot consent.

The horses do enjoy to race though.

Playing the devils advocate here, but if we were to take the stance that any sport involving animals in which they could be hurt when they can't consent to participate should be banned, how far would this go? Would children's gymkhana events also be banned? Would you ban Badminton Horse Trials? How about show jumping in the Olympic games? What about the huskies pulling sledges?

Yes. Until an animal stands up and says 'I want to participate in that sport that might kill me.'

[Feline]

I thought ESL's question was relevant. Few of the horses die from their injuries, they are usually killed, ostensibly to stop the animal suffering.

The humane way to prevent the animals' suffering is not to run the race in the first place.

You could say the same about riders in the Tour de France etc.

Not quite; TdF riders consent to participate. Animals cannot consent.

The horses do enjoy to race though.

Playing the devils advocate here, but if we were to take the stance that any sport involving animals in which they could be hurt when they can't consent to participate should be banned, how far would this go? Would children's gymkhana events also be banned? Would you ban Badminton Horse Trials? How about show jumping in the Olympic games? What about the huskies pulling sledges?

Yes. Until an animal stands up and says 'I want to participate in that sport that might kill me.'

Why stop with just sport? How about banning horse riders from using the roads, because there is a risk of injury there that they cannot consent to.

[AndyK]

I thought ESL's question was relevant. Few of the horses die from their injuries, they are usually killed, ostensibly to stop the animal suffering.

The humane way to prevent the animals' suffering is not to run the race in the first place.

You could say the same about riders in the Tour de France etc.

Not quite; TdF riders consent to participate. Animals cannot consent.

The horses do enjoy to race though.

Playing the devils advocate here, but if we were to take the stance that any sport involving animals in which they could be hurt when they can't consent to participate should be banned, how far would this go? Would children's gymkhana events also be banned? Would you ban Badminton Horse Trials? How about show jumping in the Olympic games? What about the huskies pulling sledges?

Yes. Until an animal stands up and says 'I want to participate in that sport that might kill me.'

Why stop with just sport? How about banning horse riders from using the roads, because there is a risk of injury there that they cannot consent to.

Ok, that too. The animals cannot consent. What part of that are you not getting?

[Peter]

To the first point about sport:

Yes, it might seem an over-reaction but I wouldn't have a problem with it.  Especially stuff like show-jumping where some of the aim seems to be to get a horse into orbit.

To the second point about roads:

No, it's motorised traffic that needs banning from roads, you know it makes sense.

[Feline]

I thought ESL's question was relevant. Few of the horses die from their injuries, they are usually killed, ostensibly to stop the animal suffering.

The humane way to prevent the animals' suffering is not to run the race in the first place.

You could say the same about riders in the Tour de France etc.

Not quite; TdF riders consent to participate. Animals cannot consent.

The horses do enjoy to race though.

Playing the devils advocate here, but if we were to take the stance that any sport involving animals in which they could be hurt when they can't consent to participate should be banned, how far would this go? Would children's gymkhana events also be banned? Would you ban Badminton Horse Trials? How about show jumping in the Olympic games? What about the huskies pulling sledges?

Yes. Until an animal stands up and says 'I want to participate in that sport that might kill me.'

Why stop with just sport? How about banning horse riders from using the roads, because there is a risk of injury there that they cannot consent to.

Ok, that too. The animals cannot consent. What part of that are you not getting?

Oh I think I get what you are saying clearly. I'm just drawing attention to it's pitfalls 

[Exit Stage Left]

I don't ride horses, but I do meet those who ride to hounds, and steeplechase, when I go skiing, and because I do hedgelaying competitions, which overlap with hunting. Those who hunt tend to view those who don't accept the risks as 'duffers', they view themselves as normal, not as an elite. The most elite riders are capable of competing in the Grand National.
It's sort of analagous to cycling, the risks ramp up as you go up the ladder. So PBP participants view the odd death as an acceptable risk, and people get killed in time trials and races. I've got interviews and footage of several people who feature as fatalities in recent threads on this forum. It's not terribly civilised when you sit down and look at it. Then you go round Tesco and see people unable to support their own weight, slumped over a trolley, defeated by the modern world, and barbarism has a renewed appeal

[AndyK]

People have a choice.

[Gaston Lagaffe]

People have a choice.

I understand Synchronised fractured his leg without a rider on board.  Horses carry on racing and jumping without riders on board, they have the choice to stop, but they don't.

[AndyK]

People have a choice.

I understand Synchronised fractured his leg without a rider on board.  Horses carry on racing and jumping without riders on board, they have the choice to stop, but they don't.

Did Synchronised choose to take part in the first place?

[andyoxon]

BTW are domestic horses livestock?