JR's Training Log

[JohnR]

Trying to raise my cycling efficiency.

Took a test today on the gym bike, don't have access to a watt bike or trainer. Here's the results

Max HR: 169 (I have seen 181 during other workouts)
Max Power: 210W (sustained for 2 minutes)
VO2MAX: 70%? (I think)
Weight: 75Kg
Power to weight: 2.8W/Kg
FTP unknown
Average for my age was the result.

Going to start training to raise my game, but not sure what to start with, possibly base training.
Have got Friel's bible, so perhaps follow this?
Would my FTP be about 200 Watts For Training levels?
Any advice appreciated.

[Pedal Castro]

Two questions:
1. What is your goal?
2. How much time do you have to train?

[LMT]

Trying to raise my cycling efficiency.

Took a test today on the gym bike, don't have access to a watt bike or trainer. Here's the results

Max HR: 169 (I have seen 181 during other workouts)
Max Power: 210W (sustained for 2 minutes)
VO2MAX: 70%? (I think)
Weight: 75Kg
Power to weight: 2.8W/Kg
FTP unknown
Average for my age was the result.

Going to start training to raise my game, but not sure what to start with, possibly base training.
Have got Friel's bible, so perhaps follow this?
Would my FTP be about 200 Watts For Training levels?
Any advice appreciated.

Based on a max output of 210 watts for two minutes the asnwer would be no. If we was to take the 210w as an anerobic test (usually these are between 3- 5 minutes long) then your FTP would be 65-75% of this figure so (210*.65) and (210*.75) equals a FTP of between 136-158 watts.

[JohnR]

Two questions:
1. What is your goal?
I am not interested in racing,
I would like to be able to ride further, say 200Km + and at a greater speed and climb hills a little quicker. I would like to be able to complete lel 2017 without being lanterns rouge.
2. How much time do you have to train? I can manage an hour or two twice a week after work with a long ride on Sunday.

[JohnR]

Trying to raise my cycling efficiency.

Took a test today on the gym bike, don't have access to a watt bike or trainer. Here's the results

Max HR: 169 (I have seen 181 during other workouts)
Max Power: 210W (sustained for 2 minutes)
VO2MAX: 70%? (I think)
Weight: 75Kg
Power to weight: 2.8W/Kg
FTP unknown
Average for my age was the result.

Going to start training to raise my game, but not sure what to start with, possibly base training.
Have got Friel's bible, so perhaps follow this?
Would my FTP be about 200 Watts For Training levels?
Any advice appreciated.

Based on a max output of 210 watts for two minutes the asnwer would be no. If we was to take the 210w as an anerobic test (usually these are between 3- 5 minutes long) then your FTP would be 65-75% of this figure so (210*.65) and (210*.75) equals a FTP of between 136-158 watts.

The 210watt Max came in at around 160-165 BPM which is where I start heavy breathing and take this to be my ATP. I have maintained a cadence of 90 rpm for over 20 minutes at over 165 BPM in the past.
I will attempt a 20 minute TT on Tuesday night to try and find my FTP, starting around the 158 watt mark and see how I go.

[simonp]

Without doing a validated test protocol I think estimating your FTP from this could be a bit hit and miss. My best 2 minute power this year is 330W and best 20 minute power is 270W. This from this my FTP is estimated to be in the 250-260W range.

If you could have worked a lot harder in the 2 minute effort then lmt's estimate of your FTP could be too low.

[Pedal Castro]

Two questions:
1. What is your goal?
I am not interested in racing,
I would like to be able to ride further, say 200Km + and at a greater speed and climb hills a little quicker. I would like to be able to complete lel 2017 without being lanterns rouge.
2. How much time do you have to train? I can manage an hour or two twice a week after work with a long ride on Sunday.

OK, then in simple terms I would do the long ride on Sunday at the fastest pace you can manage the distance, if you have a HRM use that to focus on keeping the work rate high enough. Then use the midweek sessions for speed work, e.g. 4x15' choosing a power target that you can only just manage. Knowing you FTP is useful in planning turbo sessions not absolutely necessary if you are happy doing similar sessions, just use trial and error and you soon work out the power that hits the spot. In general the shorter the sessions the higher the output needed for gains.

[simonp]

I think the weekend outdoor ride should be about building aerobic base - it should be at a lower intensity. I would do the quality work indoors.

The TrainerRoad 'Ask a cycling coach' podcast covers this quite a lot. Usually the recommended starting point is the sweet spot base training program which is typically 3-4 sessions a week with the Sunday session being a long, steady ride and the quality work done during the week with intervals (but at a lower intensity than suggested by PC - more like 85% of FTP). After the base phase they introduce harder work-outs, depending on goal.

If you had more time available to train, in the base phase, they would have you doing 'traditional base' which is more volume, less intensity. From what JohnR has said, it seems to fit a 'sweet spot base' approach best.

[JohnR]

Thanks all for your advice, as you can guess I'm trying to work it all out.

I've read a few articles on ftp work which is where I was coming from with that. The article agreed with SimonP's 85% sweet spot of ftp.

What I'm wondering is if I try doing 60 minute total workouts twice a week comprising of a warm up period followed by 2*20 minute 85% ftp intervals with 4 minutes between at recovery rate and a cool down period.

On the Sunday run (weather permitting) long runs slowly building distance at first keeping HR in my endurance range (from the training levels found by my "test").

If I do these for an initial 6 weeks slowly building up intensities in each workout. Also perhaps a re-test of my ftp each 4 weeks.

How does this sound?

Thanks again for your input.

[simonp]

JohnR - that sounds like a reasonable approach.

I would suggest you start off with a larger number of shorter intervals. 2x20 is quite tough (depends on your fitness level though). For example, 6 minute intervals with 2 minute recoveries, repeated 6 times. I did something like that the other day. This fits into an hour quite nicely.

[JohnR]

Thanks Simon,

I'll see how I go on Tuesday with my test and try first one on Thursday, if it's looking like I cannot achieve 20 mins I could change to more shorter intervals as you suggest. I need to be a bit hard on myself as it's too easy for me to wimp out.

I'll update with results.

Cheers

[chrisbainbridge]

John
I had a bike fit with adrian Timmis and discussed training with him.  (I would like to say he is my coach but that would be slightly overstating the case)  His formula for sweetspot training is warm up then 3 x10min sessions with a few minutes rest.  Start at 85% of FTP and increase by 2-3 watts every time you do the session.

I have not redone my FTP test but feel this gives a good workout which is regularly achievable.

[Chris S]

If you can comfortably ride 200s in 9-10 hours, and be almost completely recovered the next day, you shouldn't have too much trouble with LEL - it's not a particularly tough ride, and being 1400+km, the time limits are generous.

Getting better on hills is nearly all about power:weight, and a little bit about technique.

Surrounding yourself in stats is great if that's what you like - but you really don't need all that to complete LEL (or PBP for that matter, though the latter is harder).

Having said all that, I completed both on a bike with someone else, so I might have a different opinion if I'd ridden them solo!

[JohnR]

If you can comfortably ride 200s in 9-10 hours, and be almost completely recovered the next day, you shouldn't have too much trouble with LEL - it's not a particularly tough ride, and being 1400+km, the time limits are generous.

Getting better on hills is nearly all about power:weight, and a little bit about technique.

Surrounding yourself in stats is great if that's what you like - but you really don't need all that to complete LEL (or PBP for that matter, though the latter is harder).

Having said all that, I completed both on a bike with someone else, so I might have a different opinion if I'd ridden them solo!

Hi Chris, thanks for posting, I have done a few 200's but find the first half goes well but the second half I seem to get slower with my legs not providing much in the way of power up the hills. These usually come in around 11 to 12 hrs and I am tired for a couple of days after these days.

[JohnR]

John
I had a bike fit with adrian Timmis and discussed training with him.  (I would like to say he is my coach but that would be slightly overstating the case)  His formula for sweetspot training is warm up then 3 x10min sessions with a few minutes rest.  Start at 85% of FTP and increase by 2-3 watts every time you do the session.

I have not redone my FTP test but feel this gives a good workout which is regularly achievable.

Hi Chris, this seems a reasonable method, I will give it a go when I've found my ftp from tonight's test.
This also has a way of monitoring improvements by the small increases.

[simonp]

If you can comfortably ride 200s in 9-10 hours, and be almost completely recovered the next day, you shouldn't have too much trouble with LEL - it's not a particularly tough ride, and being 1400+km, the time limits are generous.

Getting better on hills is nearly all about power:weight, and a little bit about technique.

Surrounding yourself in stats is great if that's what you like - but you really don't need all that to complete LEL (or PBP for that matter, though the latter is harder).

Having said all that, I completed both on a bike with someone else, so I might have a different opinion if I'd ridden them solo!

Hi Chris, thanks for posting, I have done a few 200's but find the first half goes well but the second half I seem to get slower with my legs not providing much in the way of power up the hills. These usually come in around 11 to 12 hrs and I am tired for a couple of days after these days.

Sounds like I used to find things after about 150km. Training does help.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

There are two parts to training for an event like LEL.  The first is training the body to optimise its performance and those above are far more qualified to comment about FTP, VO2max et. 

The other bit is about training the head and the gut to deal with 4 days in the saddle, without time to properly digest food, and dealing with weather and hills when you are at a psychological low.  You may be lucky and find the answer to these challenges straight away but you may find it helps to practice - with some training rides at unusual hours, in the dark, in bad weather, find routes where you are forced over that &*$%* hill at the end when your legs are falling off, or where you have hours of headwinds on the way back.  (Not all the time, I hasten to add, that will take all the fun out of cycling that the turbo-trainer hasn't, but so that you have the experience of dealing with tough situations out on the road).

[JohnR]

Well I attempted the test, but I think I'll have to think it out again.

Warm up comprised of 20 min at endurance heart rate 117-137 BPM followed by 3 * 1 min higher resistance with 1 min at endurance rate in between.

Test comprised of 5 minutes high resistance, 10 minutes at endurance rate. Then the 20 minutes test increasing the resistance each 5 minutes maintaining 100 rpm.

Only managed 10 minutes before legs began fading, so cut back to endurance rate. Min 150 watts, Max 190 watts, average 170? Heart rate was 176 BPM, which wasn't the problem, just the legs buckling. More attempts at the test should familiarise me to them in future. Perhaps my useable ftp could be 160 watts?

Think I'll try some more intervals until I can find a suitable rate I can maintain for 20 minutes. Continued cycling and seems I may be able to maintain around 160 watts with my heart rate around 165 BPM, just in my anaerobic threshold but OK.

[JohnR]

There are two parts to training for an event like LEL.  The first is training the body to optimise its performance and those above are far more qualified to comment about FTP, VO2max et. 

The other bit is about training the head and the gut to deal with 4 days in the saddle, without time to properly digest food, and dealing with weather and hills when you are at a psychological low.  You may be lucky and find the answer to these challenges straight away but you may find it helps to practice - with some training rides at unusual hours, in the dark, in bad weather, find routes where you are forced over that &*$%* hill at the end when your legs are falling off, or where you have hours of headwinds on the way back.  (Not all the time, I hasten to add, that will take all the fun out of cycling that the turbo-trainer hasn't, but so that you have the experience of dealing with tough situations out on the road).

Hi cet, I am aware of the psychological and dietary challenges of long rides. I found out on my first 200 when I was constantly thinking how far there was left to go, which was messing with my head. Until I figured out to treat the distance between controls as a separate bike ride, which did the trick. Now I have to sort out my fitness and eating on the bike.

[Ningishzidda]

http://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com/2013/01/what-is-ftp.html

Here's Hunter Allen's FTP protocol.

The 20 minute test ( 5. ) is on the turbo or ergometer simulating flat road or very slight incline ( eg 0.5% ). The turbo's own road curve takes care of the power absorption. No need to adjust resistance levels during the test.
The power curve of the dyno should be known. Kurt Kinetic Rock&Roll road machine is the jobbie. Fit a pro flyweel to give inertia sim' on initial acceleration and the distance in 20 minutes off your bike computer will give you the average speed, and reading off KK's curve, the resultant Watts.

A 'proper' FTP test is over 60 minutes, simulating a 1 hour ride round a velodrome.

[JohnR]

Hi Ningers,

I pointed out at the beginning I don't have any equipment other than a gym bike on which to do this kind of training on where to simulate road riding conditions you have to adjust the resistance and/or the cadence to achieve the required watts, I would like better equipment but don't have means to acquire them atm.

I used that article to do my "test" which it states the actual test is only a 20 minute window in the whole time which is used to approximate the 60 minute time trial which is what others seem to be doing. I was on the bike for 1.5 hours in total.

As this is new to me I don't yet know where my limits are which is what I'm trying to find out by trial and error to find a reasonable starting point for my winter training in the gym when I can't get out on the bike.

I agree with what you say, I just have to make the best of what I have available to me.

[JohnR]

In view of my rather dismal effort at the test, I thought I'd probably be better to start out low and build up over a few weeks, so did 45 mins today at EZ-MO HR Zone.

Level   Watts   End HR  Cadence   Zone       Time
   6        102       125          80           2        20 Mins
   7        114       142          80           3        25 Mins

That was easy enough.

[Ningishzidda]

Tommy Godwin, Olympic medallist 1948, said,,

“No-one ever got good by taking it easy.”

 

[JohnR]

Let's call it a bit of base building, to get any mitochondria that's there to grow, just a little please.

It'll build, promise.

[LMT]

In view of my rather dismal effort at the test, I thought I'd probably be better to start out low and build up over a few weeks, so did 45 mins today at EZ-MO HR Zone.

Level   Watts   End HR  Cadence   Zone       Time
   6        102       125          80           2        20 Mins
   7        114       142          80           3        25 Mins

That was easy enough.

You need to work on your endurance, an extra 12 watts should not see an increase in HR such as the above.

Do a coupling test. Ride at a power which is lowish Zone 2, do this for an hour. If your HR has increased by more than 5% frm start to fiinish then you'd need to do more base work before doing intervals.