Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: meddyg on 16 May, 2020, 08:32:17 am
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IS anyone making a 'social distancing' logo for bike jackets ?
Now the nation knows they're supposed to stay 2metres away, we can exploit this to keep motorists distancing on the road !
I would expect Sustrans or CyclingUK to be on the case since police promotion of the ClosePass problem has been prominent in some cities !
Perhaps they are, if so please say !
(https://www.scotland.police.uk/assets/images/newsimages/376118/close-pass-1)
see also
https://www.facebook.com/491406574256697/photos/1600070800056930/ (https://www.facebook.com/491406574256697/photos/1600070800056930/)
https://therunningpost96.wordpress.com/2016/06/20/cyclists-vs-motorists/ (https://therunningpost96.wordpress.com/2016/06/20/cyclists-vs-motorists/)
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Better off holding defensive cycling classes for the masses.
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Asking nicely doesn't get you space. Riding assertively and looking interesting or dangerous gets you space.
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They'll veer closer while trying to read it at mach2.
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Better off holding defensive cycling classes for the masses.
as LMT says
Ian Garrard's study from Bath University agrees :
'This suggests there is little a rider can do, by altering their outfit or donning a high-visibility jacket, to prevent the most dangerous overtakes from happening. Instead, the researchers suggest, if we want to make cyclists safer, it is our roads, or driver behaviour, that need to change.'
https://www.bath.ac.uk/announcements/cyclists-cannot-stop-drivers-overtaking-dangerously-research-study-suggests/ (https://www.bath.ac.uk/announcements/cyclists-cannot-stop-drivers-overtaking-dangerously-research-study-suggests/)
and I thought that wearing a pony tail under my helmet would fix it for me !
When the Transport Research Laboratory measured bicycle overtaking distances in the same part of the country back in 1979, they found drivers left an average gap of 179 cm when overtaking a cyclist. The average gap in this study was 118 cm, suggesting that the treatment of cyclists might have become worse over the last few decades.
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Yeah, if you want to alter driver behaviour you're going to have to be more weird or dangerous than that.
Wobbling, offensive weapons, unusual bikes, loads that look like they might damage a car (either through pointyness or precariousness), that sort of thing. Simply dressing as a different type of BloodyCyclist isn't likely to change anything more than your perceived speed. You need to make them care, either by making them want to get a better look[1] at you, or by making them want to stay well away from you. They've already done the risk assessment that prioritises their convenience over your safety, so if you want to influence their behaviour you need to give them a different priority.
IME the main difference visible long hair makes is to the gendered nature of the abuse from shouty men in passing cars.
[1] As a recumbent rider I can confidently state that the ones who are videoing you with a smartphone aren't the ones passing dangerously close.
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When the Transport Research Laboratory measured bicycle overtaking distances in the same part of the country back in 1979, they found drivers left an average gap of 179 cm when overtaking a cyclist. The average gap in this study was 118 cm, suggesting that the treatment of cyclists might have become worse over the last few decades.
What's the change in average car width over the same period?
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The chap in Bath who did the blonde wig passing distance study also came to the conclusion somewhere along the line that there was a fixed proportion of drivers who, no matter what tactic adopted by a cyclist, always passed too close.
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That's him mentioned above: Dr Ian Garrard.
Sorry, wrong! The bloke at Bath who did the wig experiment was Ian Walker.
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I thought the only approach proven to reduce close passes was to look like the police.
Drivers know how much space they should give, but they don't care if there is no risk of prosecution.
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I've found I get more space if I put in a little wobble when they're more than a few seconds behind (any closer and there's little point).
Doesn't work with everyone though, and if someone isn't actually looking at the road (because they're looking at their phone/satnav/radio/kids/etc) then that's of no use at all.
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I thought the only approach proven to reduce close passes was to look like the police.
Correct. Walker repeated his study with a rather better one and found that this was the case.
Drivers know how much space they should give, but they don't care if there is no risk of prosecution.
Also correct. In the second study, Walker found that a POLITE vest had no significant effect, but an actual police vest did. The drivers could see him and his experimental subjects well enough to tell the difference between a real and a fake police uniform, and chose their passing distance accordingly.
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In summary, some drivers don't give a shit / are too ignorant to understand how a close pass might be unsettling for a cyclist.
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I once discovered that a huge bouquet of flowers peering out of the off side panier did the trick. (It was our wedding anniversary, or something).
The biggest leek in the world, mounted sideways through my barley flap, was almost as effective. (It wasn't our wedding anniversary).
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I always used to have a standard blinky rear led light running when cycling in daylight, but have recently started using a Spanninga Elips pannier mounted light that only has a "steady" mode. It may be my imagination but I swear that I've noticed more respectful overtaking since I've been using this light. Maybe its because it helps to identify the rider as a road user rather than just another "bloody cyclist"?
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3 feet is too close for my liking
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3 feet is too close for my liking
Definitely too close.
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And it's 3' the wrong way too.
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With the mentality some of the road using idiots display I wonder whether this would encourage an “ I can get much closer than that, no problem” mentality
A
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With the mentality some of the road using idiots display I wonder whether this would encourage an “ I can get much closer than that, no problem” mentality
A
From the Honest John website, here's a recent question (14 May) asking how close one can
overtake a cyclist on the road:
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/144937/how-closely-can-i-overtake-a-cyclist-in-the-road- (https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/144937/how-closely-can-i-overtake-a-cyclist-in-the-road-)
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Close passing is, I think, is sometimes genuine ignorance from people who drive everywhere and have no comprehension of what it feels like. If you've ever walked down a narrow road with no pavement, you'll be familiar with the same behaviour*.
Other times, it's just a case of simply not caring. They want to get ahead and they if they can squeeze past they will. It's viewed as a right. And as no one will tell them otherwise, well, why not.
In combination, well, that's passing behaviour. It's never that they can't see you or need to be told. It's like the people who ride around after dark lit up like Vegas. Trust me, it's not that people couldn't see you, they can see a bike with a single decent light well enough, it's that for whatever reason they've constructed they simply don't care or aren't looking.
*there are three types of country lane pass in my experience: the wide and slow, the wide but without slowing, and the don't care. The latter seem to be winning out these days.
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I suspect that quite a large number of close passes are not because of ignorance or carelessness at all but from people who actually want to frighten you.
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Yes, there's that too. Teaching someone a lesson because they think the cyclist (or walker) shouldn't be there.
There's the element of facilitated bullying, they can do this because they're in a big powerful car and they know there's no one to stop them.
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Yes. The trouble is how to deal with it. I suspect that the best way is to ignore it and not give them the satisfaction of knowing that they upset you. But too often instinct takes over and I give mouth then instantly remember, "Hang on he/she's got two tons of metal and I've only got a buch of flowers or a leek". As people have said, it's really difficult to change this behaviour, so I guess steeling yourself not to react is the safest line - but it's hard!
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Hmmmm. I think the balance between ignorant and vindictive weighs far more heavily to ignorant, so an outburst might conceivably make the ignorant realise they messed up. I think that outweighs any downside to hurling abuse at any vindictive bastards.
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Not if you're wrong and they kill you, it doesn't. I was pleased to call John Radford my friend. I can't call him anything, now.
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In combination, well, that's passing behaviour. It's never that they can't see you or need to be told. It's like the people who ride around after dark lit up like Vegas. Trust me, it's not that people couldn't see you, they can see a bike with a single decent light well enough, it's that for whatever reason they've constructed they simply don't care or aren't looking.
Agreed. Drivers approaching from behind are scary, but in the absence of serious Weather, they generally see you just fine. Cyclist 'invisibility' is more of a factor at junctions, where they're looking for cars and seeing A-pillars. And most of the time they'll still see you, but either underestimate your speed or decide that as the driver of the more important vehicle they get to bully their way out.
Putting yourself where they're expecting cars to come from helps. Being interesting-looking can hold their attention for long enough for them to get a better idea of your speed, and maybe make them more interested in getting a decent look at you than getting there first. FRIKKIN LAZERS might wake them up in a small subset of conditions. But mostly it comes down to whether they bother to look, and no amount of space lemon tactics will help with that, all you can do is anticipate them failing to see you and react accordingly.
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I've noticed that generally you get far wider passes – proper whole other side of the line passes – when drivers know (or think they know) there's no oncoming traffic. This is most evident in two situations: late at night, particularly on B roads and smaller, when drivers will go the wrong side of the road even on blind bends because they 'know' if there was oncoming traffic they'd see headlights, and lately in lockdown. They also seem more willing to wait for a minute until there's an other-side opportunity under those circumstances. So I don't think most close passes are due to anything other than impatience and the deadly sin of holding up other drivers.
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Agreed... It's always interesting if riding with a well strung out group to see a driver pass members of the group with different margins depending on whether there is an oncoming vehicle at the time ie the driver knows they should give plenty of space but won't do it if it involves hanging back to wait for a gap.
(Notes similar behaviour of runners and some cyclists on shared use paths)
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This is why I don't cycle on the A22. Most (not all) lorries will attempt a very wide pass, but generally they underestimate my speed and the time it will take to complete the manoeuvre.
So the lorry sees oncoming traffic, doesn't have time to complete, and starts to pull in.
For the cyclist, fun this is not. Usually, there's enough time to brake but I don't want to be there on the occasion when there is not.
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With the mentality some of the road using idiots display I wonder whether this would encourage an “ I can get much closer than that, no problem” mentality
A
From the Honest John website, here's a recent question (14 May) asking how close one can
overtake a cyclist on the road:
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/144937/how-closely-can-i-overtake-a-cyclist-in-the-road- (https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/144937/how-closely-can-i-overtake-a-cyclist-in-the-road-)
That illustrates the ignorance and lack of thought well. The questioner has apparently failed to understand that a white line painted on the road has no magical power to protect a cyclist or to make them feel less vulnerable if a vehicle passes too closely. That’s before dealing with the fact that much of the white line in road ‘infrastructure’ is actually dangerous for cyclists, due to being too narrow (I.e. not compliant with guidelines), on the edge of the road and covered in debris and encouraging vehicle drivers in a false belief that cyclist should stay in their place and allow them past in dangerous situations.
I agree that most close passes are largely ignorant and unthinking, even when driven by the self-entitled brigade, but there remains a proportion of deliberate incidents.
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It's a "you're in your lane, I'm in my lane" thinking that they bring with them from dual carriageways.
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It's a "you're in your lane, I'm in my lane" thinking that they bring with them from dual carriageways.
Yes. The corollary to that is that you get relatively few close passes and harassment if you take the lane on a multi-lane road.
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It's a "you're in your lane, I'm in my lane" thinking that they bring with them from dual carriageways.
Yes. To corollary to that is that you get relatively few close passes and harassment if you take the lane on a multi-lane road.
And on single carriageways, having no line in the middle reduces close passes.
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This is one of the problems (and why no one cycles) – taking the lane requires you being a confident and assertive cyclist because while safer, you know it's going to rile a fair number of drivers. At best it's an immensely stressful strategy, at worse sometimes even more dangerous since forces an even worse overtake.
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I've said this elsewhere before on here but you don't need to tell a driver you are there, as said above most of the time they have seen you and either don't care or are ignorant. I tend to favour most are ignorant but I always try to see the nicer side of people. The flatbed driver last week was just an idiot but they are not all like that.
Breaking up the depth perception works better than telling someone you are there with high vis. I stopped wearing hi vis this winter because I felt I got more close passes with it than without it.
Instead I have the fixed dynamo light on the outside seat stay, a battery blinky on the inside seat stay at a different height and a third blinky on the saddle bag in the middle, again at a different height to the other two. There's also reflective tape sewn into the saddle bag and stuck to the mudguard. A driver can see my lights from approximately 500 yards or more but the different rates of blink and positioning means he/she hasn't got my exact position on the road or estimated my speed until they are much closer. By then they have lifted off the throttle and because they have lifted a bit they actually consider (mostly) if it's still OK to pass.
Doesn't work in May or June though as it's mostly daylight. Then you just need something pointy
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A driver can see my lights from approximately 500 yards or more but the different rates of blink and positioning means he/she hasn't got my exact position on the road or estimated my speed until they are much closer. By then they have lifted off the throttle and because they have lifted a bit they actually consider (mostly) if it's still OK to pass.
Driver sees person on bike and thinks;
"I see a person on a bike ahead, it's in front of me, so I know roughly where it is
without being precise. It probably hasn't got an engine attached to it, so I guess
it is probably travelling under 30 mph".
Doesn't need to be over-thought really.
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(https://www.bristol247.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/XR-Space-to-Breathe-protest-photo-XR-1-1600x900.jpg)
as I was saying... this week, the good Burghers of Bristol weigh in with their plumbing shop accessories . . . . .
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A driver can see my lights from approximately 500 yards or more but the different rates of blink and positioning means he/she hasn't got my exact position on the road or estimated my speed until they are much closer. By then they have lifted off the throttle and because they have lifted a bit they actually consider (mostly) if it's still OK to pass.
Driver sees person on bike and thinks;
"I see a person on a bike ahead, it's in front of me, so I know roughly where it is
without being precise. It probably hasn't got an engine attached to it, so I guess
it is probably travelling under 30 mph".
Doesn't need to be over-thought really.
I think half of drivers assume more like 10 mph
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(https://www.bristol247.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/XR-Space-to-Breathe-protest-photo-XR-1-1600x900.jpg)
as I was saying... this week, the good Burghers of Bristol weigh in with their plumbing shop accessories . . . . .
That's Newfoundland Way, end of the M32. Apparently there was a social distancing / space for cycling and walking protest there last Wednesday: https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/people-walk-cycle-along-m32-4169381
The site has history. Waaay back in the 1980s, might even have been the late 70s, Cyclebag, the predecessor of both Sustrans and Bristol Cycling Campaign (but also still in existence as a social riding group), printed zebra crossing stripes on a roll of material which they unfurled there early one morning. I believe they even had Belisha beacons powered off a car battery or a portable generator. I've seen photos of this but can't find anything on the web.
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A driver can see my lights from approximately 500 yards or more but the different rates of blink and positioning means he/she hasn't got my exact position on the road or estimated my speed until they are much closer. By then they have lifted off the throttle and because they have lifted a bit they actually consider (mostly) if it's still OK to pass.
Driver sees person on bike and thinks;
"I see a person on a bike ahead, it's in front of me, so I know roughly where it is
without being precise. It probably hasn't got an engine attached to it, so I guess
it is probably travelling under 30 mph".
Doesn't need to be over-thought really.
I think half of drivers assume more like 10 mph
And, for the average non-racing cyclist, that's usually a reasonable assumption. Except when it isn't.
The problem comes from the "Objects travelling at 10mph or so are basically stationary, so normal road ettiquette ceases to apply" reasoning.
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(https://bikepackingpro.com/btp-photos/uploads/2016/01/dont-run-me-over-cycling-jersey-660x300.jpg)
would this work ?
I guess someone bought and tried it !
(Oh it's USAnian so we'll never know)
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(https://images2.imgbox.com/64/26/lyhcLSVy_o.jpg)
On the theme of exploiting Social Distancing to sociable cycling
I think I picked this up on Twitter - near Bath ,I think ?
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Not quite the same but I recently got one of these each for me and husband https://passpixi.com/ (a magnetic camera sign that I keep on my pannier although you can also put it on a jacket or jersey).
It doesn't work on absolutely every driver of course, there will always be oblivious ones, but it works on plenty.
You can often actually hear the moment they clock it and decide to hang back for somewhere safer to overtake, and I've had to report far fewer close passes since I got it. Husband doesn't even have cameras on his bike (but is usually within sight of mine) and he agreed it's made a difference.
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I read about a woman in the US who cycled with a Colt 45 on full view (holster at the small of her back) and never experienced any close passes or harassment.
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Wonder if one of these would work? :demon:(https://assets.jsaccessories.co.uk/products/25553/polite-think-bike-waistcoat-blue-size-s-92633-1.jpg)
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Anecdatally, when I was a Penniless Student Oaf a friend, who rode a big BMW with a white fairing, painted a chessboard round his helmet and reported a notable improvement in the attitude of his fellow road users.
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You don’t even need to paint the helmet. A white bike, white helmet and a hi-viz jacket are enough. The “polite” vest are a bit of a thing in motorcycling circles. Let us just say that many bikers, including me, wouldn’t be seen dead wearing one. The camera logo on the pannier is an interesting idea. Is just the sight of the logo, even on something that clearly won’t have a speed camera on it enough to alter driver behaviour? Sounds like an idea for a research study.
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Other times, it's just a case of simply not caring. They want to get ahead and they if they can squeeze past they will. It's viewed as a right. And as no one will tell them otherwise, well, why not.
...
*there are three types of country lane pass in my experience: the wide and slow, the wide but without slowing, and the don't care. The latter seem to be winning out these days.
The worst example of this I recall happened when I was overtaking (at modest speed, having greeted them when approaching & seen the horses' ears flicker) two children on ponies, accompanied by two adults on MTBs.
A shiny 4WD came up behind us, let rip with his horn & forced his way past with the horn going all the way, squeezing me (braking & trying to keep control) into the others. I heard one of the parents swear & both went to grab the panicking ponies. One child seemed to be keeping control (just), the other was in trouble until mum or dad got a grip on the pony, with soothing words.
No chance to get his number, of course. Oh, for a bike cam!
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This is why I don't cycle on the A22. Most (not all) lorries will attempt a very wide pass, but generally they underestimate my speed and the time it will take to complete the manoeuvre.
So the lorry sees oncoming traffic, doesn't have time to complete, and starts to pull in.
For the cyclist, fun this is not. Usually, there's enough time to brake but I don't want to be there on the occasion when there is not.
I've had the pulling in too soon problem with cars, not just lorries. Scary!
I've also had drivers overtake me when I was breaking the speed limit (always downhill, except in 20mph limits). One then had to brake hard at a red light, so I pulled up on his left & told him, through the open passenger window, how fast I'd been going when he overtook me. Frozen, hands on wheel, pretending I wasn't there. The passenger looked interested, though. Went off rather sedately when the light changed, IIRC.
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). One then had to brake hard at a red light, so I pulled up on his left & told him, through the open passenger window, how fast I'd been going when he overtook me. Frozen, hands on wheel, pretending I wasn't there.
My favourite variation of this is to go upto the window with a big grin and say "I'd guess you didn't see the speed camera van then?" Hopefully they are bricking it for a few days when the postman calls.