Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: Kim on July 01, 2020, 04:50:29 pm

Title: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on July 01, 2020, 04:50:29 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53253194

The RNIB statement is unsurprising.  There's an awful lot of anti-cyclist sentiment in the blind community, and their objections to dockless hire schemes are perfectly reasonable.

Nevertheless, if we're going to permit pedal cycles, then 15mph is a reasonable speed limit for its electric equivalent.  I'm not in favour of solving the cycling/scootering on pavements problem by legislating them out of existence.

What baffles me is the power and weight limits.  Why not simply copy those for electric assist pedal cycles?  500W seems wholly unnecessary for something with the braking stability of a penny farthing.  I suppose some of that's to offset the effect of the massive battery they're obviously aiming for, which also seems unwise...   ???

Perhaps what we're going to see is more like a motor scooter, with a seat and proper brakes, rather than type shown in the illustration?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on July 01, 2020, 05:07:53 pm
The blind community (not entirely unreasonably) seem to be against EVs in general (including cars and motorcycles) from the little I've seen.

Gov't consultation paper here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/legalising-rental-e-scooter-trials-defining-e-scooters-and-rules-for-their-use/outcome/e-scooter-rental-trials-outcome-and-summary-of-responses

Essentially, they are running a trial, and rental companies can bid to be allowed to take part in the trial. They have to fulfil a bunch of criteria demonstrating stuff about insurance (3rd party mandatory), how they will encourage helmets, how they will register their users, how they will police the use and so on.

This is their definition of an e-scooter (note how it is officially a motor vehicle, so you need some sort of driving license (moped, motorcycle or car), and that's why you need the insurance):
Quote
An e-scooter will continue to fall within the statutory definition of a motor vehicle. We will define the sub-category of an e-scooter as being a motor vehicle that:

is fitted with no motor other than an electric motor with a maximum continuous power rating of 500W and is not fitted with pedals that are capable of propelling the vehicle
is designed to carry no more than one person
has a maximum speed not exceeding 15.5 mph
has 2 wheels, 1 front and 1 rear, aligned along the direction of travel
has a mass including the battery, but excluding the rider, not exceeding 55kg
has means of directional control via the use of handlebars that are mechanically linked to the steered wheel
has means of controlling the speed via hand controls and a power control that defaults to the ‘off’ position
In addition, to achieve this, and in agreement with trial areas, we will issue vehicle orders under s44 and s63(5)–(7) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 for vehicles of particular operators assessed as being suitable to participate in trials.

E-scooters that already meet vehicle construction and approval requirements will also be able to be used in trials.

In this definition, after considering consultation responses, we decided to allow e-scooters to be used up to a maximum speed of 15.5mph. This matches the speed limit for EAPCs and geo-fencing technology could allow for greater flexibility for lower speeds, where appropriate, across trial areas.

We have also increased the permitted vehicle mass from 35kg to 55kg and removed from the original definition that an e-scooter should have ‘no provision for seating’ in order to allow seated variants to participate where they comply with our other requirements.

Finally, we introduced a maximum motor power – up from 350 to 500W.

It seems that people who own their own scooter will become legal if it is type approved and they can obtain 3rd party insurance. I wonder if there's scope there for a CUK type group to offer insurance by membership for a suitable low fee.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on July 01, 2020, 05:13:43 pm
They do sometimes seem a tad overpowered. I've been chomping along at ramming speed down Walworth Road and had them zoom past. It's a bit incongruous seeing them overtaking, they're basically like a kid's scooter that's been fed a couple of doses of steroids. How dare they?

That said, I expect there's no evidence as to the dangers. I'll admit that left on pavements they would pose a trip hazard, and that scootists roaring along pavements is likely dangerous and unpleasant, but really you'd have to find a section of pavement that's not unoccupied by a car (moving or stationary). There seems to be a ironic blindness to the RNIB concerns at times.

(Personally, and I think the evidence supports me, I think anything that gets anyone out of cars, will reduce the damage, danger, and injuries – let's give people quick and easy ways to get around that don't involve the singular use of 3 tonnes of metal.)

ETA: probably I'm also misunderstanding what an e-scooter is.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on July 01, 2020, 05:17:55 pm
The blind community (not entirely unreasonably) seem to be against EVs in general (including cars and motorcycles) from the little I've seen.

There are plenty of concerns with varying degrees of legitimacy (I'm in complete agreement about dockeless hire, shared use paths, shared space, shoddy use of tactile paving, poor treatment of cycleways at bus stops, etc.), but taken together they tend to add up to wanting the motorised status quo, which doesn't help anyone.

I get particularly frustrated with attempts to block the creation of quality cycle infrastructure, on the basis that they'd rather cyclists go away than behave more predictably and reduce the number of cars on the road.

And, as with other disabilities, little recognition of the blind people who cycle (or would if they could do so without risk from motorists or endangering pedestrians on the pavement).


Of course, the reason we're talking about the RNIB here is that they're probably the only organised group who would go on record to object to e-scooters in a reasonable-sounding way.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on July 01, 2020, 05:21:46 pm
The blind community (not entirely unreasonably) seem to be against EVs in general (including cars and motorcycles) from the little I've seen.
There are plenty of concerns with varying degrees of legitimacy, but taken together they tend to add up to wanting the motorised status quo.
I get particularly frustrated with attempts to block the creation of quality cycle infrastructure, on the basis that they'd rather cyclists go away than behave more predictably and reduce the number of cars on the road.
And, as with other disabilities, little recognition of the blind people who cycle (or would if they could do so without risk from motorists or endangering pedestrians on the pavement).
Of course, the reason we're talking about the RNIB here is that they're probably the only organised group who would go on record to object to e-scooters in a reasonable-sounding way.
Fully in agreement.

ETA: probably I'm also misunderstanding what an e-scooter is.

I don't think so - a crazy hopped up kids toy sums it up quite well. :) It's something along the lines of this: https://www.pureelectric.com/products/xiaomi-m365-electric-scooter?variant=31657510600792&fo_c=3296&fo_k=fd9aa1996a2a3647bfcd0a2e17f1c82d&fo_s=gplauk&gclid=Cj0KCQjw6PD3BRDPARIsAN8pHuFFobduDVGGGZu-lOTqcokpcoPj6hqWt7VeQTJubhuzBsrwC4lPWFwaArnAEALw_wcB
Having read the small print, the warranty is voided if you ride it in the rain! ;) I guess the for-hire ones are a bit better sealed.

Interestingly, e-skateboards are explicitly excluded from this - you are only allowed 2 wheels and you have to have a handlebar mechanically connected to the front wheel.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 01, 2020, 05:32:05 pm
It seems that what they're creating is a commercial opportunity while leaving the electric scooters that people are already riding technically illegal. Perhaps there'll be some instruction to police to crack down on them, probably issued via the medium of interpretative journalism. But we know how effective that's going to be.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on July 01, 2020, 05:52:13 pm

There are plenty of concerns with varying degrees of legitimacy (I'm in complete agreement about dockeless hire, shared use paths, shared space, shoddy use of tactile paving, poor treatment of cycleways at bus stops, etc.), but taken together they tend to add up to wanting the motorised status quo, which doesn't help anyone.

I'm not. The problem is not that dockless hire, it's that there really is fuck all cycle parking for most people, and most places. If streets had proper places to park bikes, it would be much less of a problem.

The dockless bikes here were at least maintained to a reasonable level which is more than can be said for most of the bikes round here.

Dockless bikes aren't the problem, poor bike infrastructure is.

j
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on July 01, 2020, 05:57:10 pm
If streets had proper places to park bikes

...they'd be full of bikes (in varying states of decomposition).

This is the UK.  Docks for hire bikes are more realistically achievable that a proliferation of decent cycle parking.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on July 01, 2020, 05:58:17 pm
If streets had proper places to park bikes

...they'd be full of bikes (in varying states of decomposition).

This is the UK.  Docks for hire bikes are more realistically achievable that a proliferation of decent cycle parking.

It never ceases to amaze me how UK cycle infrastructure aims are so damn low...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on July 01, 2020, 06:03:54 pm
It does work though.  Some UK cities have hire schemes where the official docks are just branded Sheffield stands.  No bikes  getting kicked over by oiks and blocking disabled pavement-users; no having to persuade the council to provide actually good levels of cycle parking everywhere people might actually want to go; hire bikes available in consistent places.

(Plus, when the hire scheme goes bust, they can be de-branded and become cycle parking.)

Meanwhile, Birmingham conspicuously lacks a hire scheme, because the complexity of a full Boris Bike style dock system seems to be beyond the capabilities of a series of lowest-bidders.  (Presumably we lack a dockless scheme because the people who run them paid attention to the "More miles of canal than Venice" line in all the tourist propaganda.)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on July 01, 2020, 06:04:26 pm
If a driving licence is required for an e-scooter, presumably that means you can get points on it for offences committed?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 01, 2020, 06:07:03 pm
The dockless hire bikes in Bristol changed their rules a couple of years back to say you had to leave them at proper cycle parking. I think this was in response to both complaints about litter-biking and incidences of theft.

Back to the scooters, if they legalised people's own scooters, on similar lines to the existing EAPC legislation, people would lock them up properly (or try to) cos they're personal property.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on July 01, 2020, 06:08:28 pm
If a driving licence is required for an e-scooter, presumably that means you can get points on it for offences committed?

I expect so.

I believe you can get points on your licence for some offences whatever the means of transportation (eg. going equipped for car theft).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 01, 2020, 06:10:41 pm
Also, when are they going to turn their legislative eyes to the electric monowheels, skateboards and so on? As with e-scooters, these vehicles are here on the roads right now. Mostly, no one cares that they're illegal, least of all the police (here anyway). A general "lightweight electric personal vehicle" law could cover them all with the present speed, power and weight limits applicable to EAPC. Much better than getting into a faff and writing new legislation each time technology moves on.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on July 01, 2020, 06:11:21 pm
Back to the scooters, if they legalised people's own scooters, on similar lines to the existing EAPC legislation, people would lock them up properly (or try to) cos they're personal property.

From observation, they tend to get folded up and taken inside at the destination, inna Brompton style (they're probably lighter and certainly less awkward than a folded Brompton).  You occasionally see one outside a newsagent or takeaway, but then people regularly abandon their BSOs and BMXes without security in the same circumstances.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on July 01, 2020, 06:12:32 pm
Also, when are they going to turn their legislative eyes to the electric monowheels, skateboards and so on? As with e-scooters, these vehicles are here on the roads right now. Mostly, no one cares that they're illegal, least of all the police (here anyway). A general "lightweight electric personal vehicle" law could cover them all with the present speed, power and weight limits applicable to EAPC. Much better than getting into a faff and writing new legislation each time technology moves on.

I view this trial as a step towards that.

Being a hire scheme provides a level of accountability.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 01, 2020, 06:19:01 pm
Also, when are they going to turn their legislative eyes to the electric monowheels, skateboards and so on? As with e-scooters, these vehicles are here on the roads right now. Mostly, no one cares that they're illegal, least of all the police (here anyway). A general "lightweight electric personal vehicle" law could cover them all with the present speed, power and weight limits applicable to EAPC. Much better than getting into a faff and writing new legislation each time technology moves on.

I view this trial as a step towards that.

Being a hire scheme provides a level of accountability.
Possibly. Hopefully. In which case, I wonder if they'll keep the 500W motor and 55kg – useful for hire schemes to ensure vehicles don't flat out on hirers but not necessary for personal use charging overnight or at work – or go back to something like 250W and say 25kg?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 01, 2020, 06:22:13 pm
Back to the scooters, if they legalised people's own scooters, on similar lines to the existing EAPC legislation, people would lock them up properly (or try to) cos they're personal property.

From observation, they tend to get folded up and taken inside at the destination, inna Brompton style (they're probably lighter and certainly less awkward than a folded Brompton).  You occasionally see one outside a newsagent or takeaway, but then people regularly abandon their BSOs and BMXes without security in the same circumstances.
Which raises the question of what is the most socially beneficial option for Colin Commuter, the one we should legislatively encourage:
a) Personal e-scooter stored under desk
b) E-bike locked up at Sheffield stand
c) Hired e-scooter left at dock?

The answer of course is d) Hire-purchased SUV left half on the kerb.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on July 01, 2020, 06:31:37 pm
Also, when are they going to turn their legislative eyes to the electric monowheels, skateboards and so on? As with e-scooters, these vehicles are here on the roads right now. Mostly, no one cares that they're illegal, least of all the police (here anyway). A general "lightweight electric personal vehicle" law could cover them all with the present speed, power and weight limits applicable to EAPC. Much better than getting into a faff and writing new legislation each time technology moves on.

I view this trial as a step towards that.

Being a hire scheme provides a level of accountability.
Possibly. Hopefully. In which case, I wonder if they'll keep the 500W motor and 55kg – useful for hire schemes to ensure vehicles don't flat out on hirers but not necessary for personal use charging overnight or at work

500W/55kg/driving licence seems reasonable if it's a de-facto motorbike, rather than one of these skateboard-with-handlebar things.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on July 01, 2020, 06:59:08 pm
500W/55kg/driving licence seems reasonable if it's a de-facto motorbike, rather than one of these skateboard-with-handlebar things.

I don't think any actual primary legislation has been passed by the commons or lords. So they've had to do this within the framework of what we already have.

It doesn't fit as a pedal cycle, so it has to be classes as a motorbike/moped etc... So what can they do within that framework? well it will need insurance, we can either ask everyone to get that, or if we limit it to hire units, the hire company sorts the insurance, base covered. But it's still essentially a variant of motor bike, so gonna need some sort of license, oh look provisional or full driving license covers that.

Oh, and lets throw a power/weight limit in cos we can.

Boom, all done without any primary legislation, just by modifying a few bits of paperwork that don't need voting on.

Solution solved at layer 10.

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on July 01, 2020, 07:39:41 pm
The further thought occurs that if the machines are of a more tangibly motorbikey aesthetic, that might reduce the pavement use.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Karla on July 01, 2020, 08:03:10 pm
500W/55kg/driving licence seems reasonable if it's a de-facto motorbike, rather than one of these skateboard-with-handlebar things.

I don't think any actual primary legislation has been passed by the commons or lords. So they've had to do this within the framework of what we already have.

It doesn't fit as a pedal cycle, so it has to be classes as a motorbike/moped etc... So what can they do within that framework? well it will need insurance, we can either ask everyone to get that, or if we limit it to hire units, the hire company sorts the insurance, base covered. But it's still essentially a variant of motor bike, so gonna need some sort of license, oh look provisional or full driving license covers that.

Oh, and lets throw a power/weight limit in cos we can.

Boom, all done without any primary legislation, just by modifying a few bits of paperwork that don't need voting on.

Solution solved at layer 10.

J

Eh?  Your driving license hasn't covered you for any form of motorbike since ... [googles] ... 2001.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on July 01, 2020, 08:43:18 pm


Eh?  Your driving license hasn't covered you for any form of motorbike since ... [googles] ... 2001.

So I need a separate provisional license for a moped now ?


J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Karla on July 01, 2020, 08:48:30 pm


Eh?  Your driving license hasn't covered you for any form of motorbike since ... [googles] ... 2001.

So I need a separate provisional license for a moped now ?

J
If you passed your test since Feb 2001 then yes, and you need to do a CBT first, which will take a day and cost about £120-150.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on July 01, 2020, 08:50:18 pm
If you passed your test since Feb 2001 then yes, and you need to do a CBT first, which will take a day and cost about £120-150.

Jan 2001. How handy...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Feanor on July 01, 2020, 08:55:32 pm
Yes, the rules about motorbike licenses have been ratcheted down quit a lot since I was a Hooligan.

Back in my day ( as best I remember ), passing a car test got you provisional licence up to 125cc, and then passing a bike test got you unlimited bike. End of story.

It's much more progressive now.
But I retain my grandfathered hooligan entitlements on my license.

Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: philip on July 01, 2020, 08:56:33 pm
So I need a separate provisional license for a moped now ?
The rules are so complicated the government produces a flowchart:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/771244/how-to-get-a-motorcycle-licence.pdf
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: hellymedic on July 01, 2020, 09:15:31 pm
Eleanor Southwood, RNIB chair, is a Councillor here in Brent.

She has shown an interest in trying t stoke a tandem but nothing has been arranged.

I understand objections to the 'high' speed limit of 15.5mph but I would not be happy mixing with motor traffic at low speeds. Using a mobility scooter limited to 8mph is terrifying in traffic.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on July 01, 2020, 09:32:36 pm
<8mph is where inexperienced / less able bicyclists begin to wobble unpredictably.

8mph is about the point where it doesn't feel too scary and fast to be passed as a pedestrian (NB. I have good vision, hearing and balance - your pedestrianism may vary).

12mph seems to be the design speed for curves/sight-lines on better British cycleways.

15.5mph is a reasonable speed to expect a pedal cycle or similar machine to cruise at on the flat.

20mph is the point where, as a cyclist, the speed differential with normal 30-40mph motor traffic starts to feel non-scary.

>25mph is where I'll confidently take a primary position in normal traffic flow.


On this basis, it's unreasonable to expect peds to mix with cyclists (or runners) without oodles of space, and for most cyclists to mix with motor vehicles travelling at more than 20mph.  You can't change this by attempting to slow cyclists down.  (Not to mention that attempts to slow cyclists down usually result in them rule-breaking, being unable to access your infra, switching to another mode, or riding somewhere else.)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Karla on July 01, 2020, 09:34:08 pm
Yes, the rules about motorbike licenses have been ratcheted down quit a lot since I was a Hooligan.

Back in my day ( as best I remember ), passing a car test got you provisional licence up to 125cc, and then passing a bike test got you unlimited bike. End of story.

It's much more progressive now.
But I retain my grandfathered hooligan entitlements on my license.

I dunno, the CBT is a minor expense compared to buying a bike, is a one day course rather than a test you can fail, and teaches you some basic minimal road sense before releasing you on a 125 for two years.  I'd say that's a pretty good deal.

Getting a full licence is harder: you need to pass a theory and two practical tests for a DAS if you're over 25, and if you're under 25 you have to step up the tests for the different power bands with their accordant lessons, so it becomes really quite time consuming and expensive.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 01, 2020, 09:40:58 pm
Also, when are they going to turn their legislative eyes to the electric monowheels, skateboards and so on? As with e-scooters, these vehicles are here on the roads right now. Mostly, no one cares that they're illegal, least of all the police (here anyway). A general "lightweight electric personal vehicle" law could cover them all with the present speed, power and weight limits applicable to EAPC. Much better than getting into a faff and writing new legislation each time technology moves on.

I view this trial as a step towards that.

Being a hire scheme provides a level of accountability.
Possibly. Hopefully. In which case, I wonder if they'll keep the 500W motor and 55kg – useful for hire schemes to ensure vehicles don't flat out on hirers but not necessary for personal use charging overnight or at work

500W/55kg/driving licence seems reasonable if it's a de-facto motorbike, rather than one of these skateboard-with-handlebar things.
I thought skateboard with handlebar, or rather, adult-sized version of child's kickalong scooter, but powered by electricity, was what we were discussing. If we're talking about something more like a miniature electro-Vespa, with a seat and proper brakes (fcvo proper), then that's a thing I didn't realise. In fact, I was wondering about parallels between the kick-along-ability and the pedal-ability of EACPs. In any case, it's still restricted to 25km/h.

France went down a related road in the late 80s and 90s, with micro cars and mopeds which, IIRC, you could drive at 14 without a licence or test. They also had no number plates, which caused predictable jollity with parking. I don't know what their legal top speed was, I think it was something like 40km/h.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Feanor on July 01, 2020, 09:53:18 pm
Yes, the rules about motorbike licenses have been ratcheted down quit a lot since I was a Hooligan.

Back in my day ( as best I remember ), passing a car test got you provisional licence up to 125cc, and then passing a bike test got you unlimited bike. End of story.

It's much more progressive now.
But I retain my grandfathered hooligan entitlements on my license.

I dunno, the CBT is a minor expense compared to buying a bike, is a one day course rather than a test you can fail, and teaches you some basic minimal road sense before releasing you on a 125 for two years.  I'd say that's a pretty good deal.

Getting a full licence is harder: you need to pass a theory and two practical tests for a DAS if you're over 25, and if you're under 25 you have to step up the tests for the different power bands with their accordant lessons, so it becomes really quite time consuming and expensive.

In my day, you could do a one-week course that got you access to anything.
Day one was a few lectures, a practice round the car park on the supplied 125s, and then a CBT assesment.
The remaining days were following the instructor around the local test course ( one self same 125s ), pointing out all the things that were being looked for.

You did the test ( one self same 125s ), and then you were free to ride anything you like.

And I did.
Hooligan 600cc sports bike.
Frankly, I'm surprised I'm still here.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fd3 on July 01, 2020, 10:43:00 pm
... what is the most socially beneficial option for Colin Commuter, the one we should legislatively encourage:
a) Personal e-scooter stored under desk
b) E-bike locked up at Sheffield stand
c) Hired e-scooter left at dock?
E-bike.  Has (Count 'em) TWO proper brakes, will work better on the road as they have proper pneumatic tyres (or a decent size) and you don't look like a cretin riding them.

Kim, I think the issue with a bike-hire in Brum is that the centre is too small to require a bike hire and the trip to town is too far for most and keeping the number of bikes available topped up would be a pain.  E-bikes would go some way to solve this, but based on how easily vandalised/stolen hire bikes are I'm not convinced that it's a goer (also keeping the right number of E-bikes in the right place remains a headache).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: drossall on July 01, 2020, 10:46:46 pm
Which raises the question of what is the most socially beneficial option for Colin Commuter, the one we should legislatively encourage:...
The answer of course is d) Hire-purchased SUV left half on the kerb.
I think this is an important point. Thinking about the desirability of specific vehicle types may not be the whole story. It's about people making choices between available options. Would I want to swap some SUVs for some e-scooters on the road? Yes please. Mostly, when I've been passed by (illegal) scooters, commuting in London before lockdown, it's made me smile much more than SUVs have.

On the whole, I think that lockdown has demonstrated that a mixed road environment, with enough variety that drivers know that they are just one class of road user, with the same rights as everyone else but no more, is preferable to the monoculture that we sometimes seemed to be heading for beforehand.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on July 01, 2020, 10:48:26 pm
Kim, I think the issue with a bike-hire in Brum is that the centre is too small to require a bike hire and the trip to town is too far for most and keeping the number of bikes available topped up would be a pain.  E-bikes would go some way to solve this, but based on how easily vandalised/stolen hire bikes are I'm not convinced that it's a goer (also keeping the right number of E-bikes in the right place remains a headache).

That would explain a scheme failing to succeed (agree that bikes are of limited use within the city centre, which is small and plagued by tramlines and unhelpful one-way systems), but not why they've taken years to start one.  I think it's mostly been financial issues:

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2019/07/25/boris-bike-scheme-hanging-in-the-balance-after-nextbike-is-ditched/
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 01, 2020, 11:04:09 pm
Which raises the question of what is the most socially beneficial option for Colin Commuter, the one we should legislatively encourage:...
The answer of course is d) Hire-purchased SUV left half on the kerb.
I think this is an important point. Thinking about the desirability of specific vehicle types may not be the whole story. It's about people making choices between available options. Would I want to swap some SUVs for some e-scooters on the road? Yes please. Mostly, when I've been passed by (illegal) scooters, commuting in London before lockdown, it's made me smile much more than SUVs have.
Definitely. I rather like the look of the monowheel things, they still look a bit Jetsons cool.

Quote
On the whole, I think that lockdown has demonstrated that a mixed road environment, with enough variety that drivers know that they are just one class of road user, with the same rights as everyone else but no more, is preferable to the monoculture that we sometimes seemed to be heading for beforehand.
And this too. Shame it didn't last (though there are still more cyclists than before, here anyway. Probably in part because commuters are avoiding buses and kids are still off school.)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 01, 2020, 11:05:24 pm
The photo on this article shows "skateboard with handlebar" type scooters. Of course, it might not be illustratively accurate.
(https://ebiketips.road.cc/sites/default/files/styles/640px/public/thumbnails/image/bird-e-scooters-queen-elizabeth-olympic-park-copyright-simon-macmichael.jpeg?itok=NAXoV11g)
https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/uk-e-scooter-ban-lifted-as-rental-trials-to-begin-on-saturday-2447
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on July 02, 2020, 08:19:57 am
The rules explicitly exclude monowheels and e-skateboards. The licensing requirements are for a moped, motorcycle or car license (AM, A, B). Obviously, as with most e-bikes, it will be easy to defeat the speed limiter on personal bikes - this may (along with the insurance) be another reason why hire schemes are proposed. You aren't going to pick a scooter from the dock and try to hack it to go faster.

I think the assumption is that it's a motorised version of a kids scooter, because those are the scooters that are currently hireable in other european cities. Wonder if it's possible to get personal insurance for riding one.  James Huang of CyclingTips crashed one and broke his 2 front teeth when in europe to cover a race last year (was it the TdF?).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: drossall on July 02, 2020, 08:34:25 am
You're giving me visions of photographers and journalists on high-power e-scooters, following the TdF riders.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 02, 2020, 10:36:57 am
The rules explicitly exclude monowheels and e-skateboards. The licensing requirements are for a moped, motorcycle or car license (AM, A, B). Obviously, as with most e-bikes, it will be easy to defeat the speed limiter on personal bikes - this may (along with the insurance) be another reason why hire schemes are proposed. You aren't going to pick a scooter from the dock and try to hack it to go faster.

I think the assumption is that it's a motorised version of a kids scooter, because those are the scooters that are currently hireable in other european cities. Wonder if it's possible to get personal insurance for riding one.  James Huang of CyclingTips crashed one and broke his 2 front teeth when in europe to cover a race last year (was it the TdF?).
That isn't going to make them disappear.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Mr Larrington on July 02, 2020, 12:50:26 pm
Which raises the question of what is the most socially beneficial option for Colin Commuter, the one we should legislatively encourage:...
The answer of course is d) Hire-purchased SUV left half on the kerb.
I think this is an important point. Thinking about the desirability of specific vehicle types may not be the whole story. It's about people making choices between available options. Would I want to swap some SUVs for some e-scooters on the road? Yes please. Mostly, when I've been passed by (illegal) scooters, commuting in London before lockdown, it's made me smile much more than SUVs have.
Definitely. I rather like the look of the monowheel things, they still look a bit Jetsons cool.

My grate frend Evil Frank has one and proved beyond reasonable doubt that even a short dumpy retired lawyer looks cool when zipping around the mean streets of Battle Mountain.  But he's USAnian and anything goes over there.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on July 02, 2020, 01:10:41 pm
The rules explicitly exclude monowheels and e-skateboards. The licensing requirements are for a moped, motorcycle or car license (AM, A, B). Obviously, as with most e-bikes, it will be easy to defeat the speed limiter on personal bikes - this may (along with the insurance) be another reason why hire schemes are proposed. You aren't going to pick a scooter from the dock and try to hack it to go faster.

I think the assumption is that it's a motorised version of a kids scooter, because those are the scooters that are currently hireable in other european cities. Wonder if it's possible to get personal insurance for riding one.  James Huang of CyclingTips crashed one and broke his 2 front teeth when in europe to cover a race last year (was it the TdF?).
That isn't going to make them disappear.
I know. It wouldn't have been too hard to make the rules accept them though, which makes me think that the rental companies were only lobbying for scooters and don't car about them or even deliberately excluded them).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 02, 2020, 01:55:02 pm
So it comes back to this being legislation aimed primarily at creating a commercial opportunity rather than opening up transport possibilities. Which is a shame. Nevertheless, we can hope that increased numbers of e-scooters will not only make the privately owned ones more acceptable (which they already are, really) but, due to their behaviour being more or less like a rather fast bicycle, improve traffic situations generally for cyclists and pedestrians.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Adam on July 02, 2020, 10:49:31 pm
So it comes back to this being legislation aimed primarily at creating a commercial opportunity rather than opening up transport possibilities. Which is a shame. Nevertheless, we can hope that increased numbers of e-scooters will not only make the privately owned ones more acceptable (which they already are, really) but, due to their behaviour being more or less like a rather fast bicycle, improve traffic situations generally for cyclists and pedestrians.

Except some users will ride on the road and no doubt annoy motorists, whilst others will zip along the pavement, and annoy pedestrians.

Sadly, with our complete lack of proper segregated cycling infrastructure and lack of policing, it'll just end up being a free for all.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: aidan.f on July 03, 2020, 09:09:33 pm
Heard a headline on the news that the trial is planned for Middlesbrough.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on July 06, 2020, 01:11:04 pm
Interview with the mayor on 'You and Yours, about 10 minutes before end:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kmjd (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kmjd)

Interestingly the speed will be capped at "about 11 1/2 mph and two and three wheeled 'sit on' versions may follow.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Jurek on July 06, 2020, 01:29:00 pm
Interview with the mayor on 'You and Yours, about 10 minutes before end:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kmjd (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kmjd)

Interestingly the speed will be capped at "about 11 1/2 mph and two and three wheeled 'sit on' versions may follow.
Wrong linky, it seems.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on July 06, 2020, 03:19:21 pm
Interview with the mayor on 'You and Yours, about 10 minutes before end:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kmjd (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kmjd)

Interestingly the speed will be capped at "about 11 1/2 mph and two and three wheeled 'sit on' versions may follow.
Wrong linky, it seems.
Strange, the description of the programme content correctly lists the other items that were aired.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on July 06, 2020, 09:49:09 pm
https://youtu.be/vGf7NWrI01U    Looks fun.....    50mph...... :jurek:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DrMekon on July 07, 2020, 04:07:30 pm
Love the dualtron thunder. Have thought long and hard about getting a dualtron compact or a zero 10x. Would be doable to commute on them If I was being sensible, all I would need is a Ninebot g30 but with the scooterhacking app unlocking extra torque.

Obviously, if EUCs were legal, I'd get a Veteran Sherman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2OwOEHQ4vA?t=206
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Chris S on July 07, 2020, 05:35:34 pm
Love the dualtron thunder. Have thought long and hard about getting a dualtron compact or a zero 10x. Would be doable to commute on them If I was being sensible, all I would need is a Ninebot g30 but with the scooterhacking app unlocking extra torque.

Obviously, if EUCs were legal, I'd get a Veteran Sherman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2OwOEHQ4vA?t=206

OMG! WAAAAAANT!

(OK, not really. The guy who lives inside me who is forever 16 wants one).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fboab on July 08, 2020, 08:52:37 am
Heard a headline on the news that the trial is planned for Middlesbrough.

 :o

The same Middlesbrough where some charmers pushed a woman off her bike to steal it?
The same Middlesbrough that features Ormesby Bank?
The same Middlesbrough whose idea of cycle facilities is a rat-ridden gully full of refuse they wouldn't take at the tip?

Interesting
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on July 08, 2020, 01:00:41 pm
Last thing I'd heard, they were considering Birmingham, for broadly similar reasons. Maybe the spate of canal-pushings changed their mind.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 08, 2020, 02:31:29 pm
They're restricting it to the North-East initially, for some reason. And they're keeping it small. Very small.
Quote
One hundred scooters will be available for rent in Teesside, Darlington and Hartlepool later in July, Tees Valley mayor Ben Houchen said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-53272688
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on July 08, 2020, 02:37:43 pm
There was a lot of noise back in May about it happening in Brum, and now ...suspiciously nothing.  It's the hire bikes all over again.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=e-scooter+trial+birmingham
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on July 08, 2020, 03:29:48 pm
They're restricting it to the North-East initially, for some reason. And they're keeping it small. Very small.
Quote
One hundred scooters will be available for rent in Teesside, Darlington and Hartlepool later in July, Tees Valley mayor Ben Houchen said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-53272688 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-53272688)


Time for Deano to do some comedy offroading on a mildly inappropriate scooter ?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 08, 2020, 05:14:56 pm
They might be more than mildly inappropriate for some of Deano's "roads".  :D
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on July 12, 2020, 02:40:29 pm
This is interesting.  Wonder how the lawsuit went...
https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/24/20696405/dockless-scooters-share-repo-men-repossessor-lawsuit-tow-yard-lime-bird-lyft-uber-razor
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fd3 on July 12, 2020, 04:08:43 pm
There was a lot of noise back in May about it happening in Brum, and now ...suspiciously nothing.  It's the hire bikes all over again.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=e-scooter+trial+birmingham
Yeah, way I heard it it was a done deal.  A great success for our regional mayor I believe.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 12, 2020, 04:27:27 pm
This is interesting.  Wonder how the lawsuit went...
https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/24/20696405/dockless-scooters-share-repo-men-repossessor-lawsuit-tow-yard-lime-bird-lyft-uber-razor
So one lot of people get paid for leaving scooters in places and another lot of people get paid for taking them away. Is this what they mean by the circular economy?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on July 13, 2020, 11:07:30 pm
Looks like they actually exist: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-tees-53397217/middlesbrough-e-scooters-town-is-first-place-for-trial
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 14, 2020, 08:06:21 am
Good, but £2 for 20 minutes! Mind you, if you compare it to a bus fare or driving costs, rather than £1 per hour for a scatter hire bike, I suppose it's okay.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on July 14, 2020, 09:04:16 am
Lime Ebikes here are £1 to unlock and 15p/minute (20 minutes = £4), and those are apparently popular. People compare to Uber not buses.

This is in the Smoke and not some backwater though.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 14, 2020, 09:49:55 am
Wow! Yo Bikes in Bristol cost £1 an hour, with a £5 maximum charge per 24 hours and you can even get an annual season ticket which costs £39.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on July 14, 2020, 10:42:03 am
Lime Bikes are electric, Yo Bikes aren't. Different market. I rarely saw anyone using the non-electric dockless bikes that briefly cluttered our pavements before the VCs got bored.

e-Scooters will be a different market still, as no chance of being mistaken for a sweaty cyclist.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 14, 2020, 10:43:45 am
VCs?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: ian on July 14, 2020, 10:44:40 am
Venture capitalists.

They throw their money at these things (or someone else's money usually) and then we throw those things in the canal.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on July 14, 2020, 11:53:14 am
Venture capitalists.

They throw their money at these things (or someone else's money usually) and then we throw those things in the canal.

You seem to have a typo, did autocarrot mess with our post. ITYM Vulture Capitalists...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on July 14, 2020, 03:23:45 pm
Saturday's Excess & Car Express & Star revealed that companies have until 29th July to bid for the contract to provide trial e-scooters in the West Midlands.
"TIER is one of the firms....scooters designed with large front wheels for stability"
An ordinary scooter?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on July 14, 2020, 04:15:12 pm
Venture capitalists.

They throw their money at these things (or someone else's money usually) and then we throw those things in the canal.

You seem to have a typo, did autocarrot mess with our post. ITYM Vulture Capitalists...

J
In the case of dockless bikes, venture capitalist is much more accurate. At least until after all their bikes have been thrown in the canal and they are broke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulture_capitalist
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on July 18, 2020, 11:39:00 pm


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-53447777

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 19, 2020, 10:43:15 am
Ginger as in Segway, presumably.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on July 19, 2020, 10:47:16 am
"Teeside Park" looks to be the kind of retail park shithole that's only reachable by dual carriageway, so the council only have themselves to blame for allowing the thing to be built like that.

(and I think it's legal to cycle on those dual carriageways too)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fboab on July 30, 2020, 10:02:39 am
Venture capitalists.

They throw their money at these things (or someone else's money usually) and then we throw those things in the canal.
No canals in 'boro'.

We have the Mighty Tees for that.

"Teeside Park" looks to be the kind of retail park shithole that's only reachable by dual carriageway, so the council only have themselves to blame for allowing the thing to be built like that.
(and I think it's legal to cycle on those dual carriageways too)
Not quite true. There are SEEKRIT CYCLEWAYS (with steps, natch  :facepalm:) in to it. I think it's only the Tees Viaduct on the A19 which is not legal for cycles - although the signage unhelpfully makes the rule-obedient Mr Smith slightly guilty every trip as it bans cyclists, rather than cycling.
Dual carriageway underestimates the traffic somewhat - it's a 4 lane interchange with the A19 & A66 which funnels all local traffic NS/EW
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on July 30, 2020, 03:25:17 pm
An incident which seems to have involved some sort of e-scooter crash has nothing at all to with Colston's statue (Bong!!!).
Quote
A witness said: "A police officer was chatting to a young group of lads and another officer then wheeled an electric scooter into the police van.

"At first I thought it might have been a clash between protesters or something like that, but when I got closer I realised the incident was unrelated to the plinth, or at least it appeared that way."

A South Western Ambulance Service spokeswoman said: "We were called at 5.32pm to an incident on Colston Avenue and attended with two ambulances. One patient was taken to hospital for further treatment."
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/emergency-services-called-edward-colston-4375276
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Mr Larrington on July 31, 2020, 11:11:24 am
A local yoof has recently acquired one and has taken to zooming up and down Larrington Gardens Road on it.  While cyclists are permitted to ride in both directions on LGR, it is one-way for motor vehicles and I rather wish he would stop doing it before he gets killed utterly to DETH by an inattentive moton/the polis come and arrest him with unnecessary violence and trigger a riot.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on August 06, 2020, 03:12:28 pm
https://twitter.com/simonmacmichael/status/1291163027300130816/photo/1
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eesh3deWkAAiu3U?format=png&name=large)
Paris est plus parisien avec les e-scooteurs.

(no idea if Paris should be masculine or feminine or if the French really say "e-scooteur"... )
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on August 06, 2020, 03:16:01 pm
There's probably a special made-up French word for them that nobody uses...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: PeterM on August 06, 2020, 05:47:32 pm
Trotinette électrique
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on August 10, 2020, 08:30:13 pm
Disruption is not necessarily change.' (https://www.citymetric.com/transport/coronavirus-scooter-bike-share-micromobility-streets-5221)
Quote
When micromobility companies like Lime and Bird rolled into cities around the world in 2018, they promised to revolutionise the way people move around. They dropped dockless bikes and e-scooters onto streets from the United States to New Zealand, asserting that the convenience offered by a shared vehicle that could be left anywhere would help usher people out of their cars and around their city centres.

But the system they vowed to disrupt has itself changed dramatically this year. People stopped moving around as the coronavirus spread, and their spending on transportation plummeted. Cars disappeared from streets virtually overnight, and support rose sharply for measures to keep it that way after cities reopen.

What’s playing out right now is nothing short of a transportation revolution – but somewhat unexpectedly, cities have a great deal of control over it. As they take urgent action to reshape their streets in an unusual moment, it’s clear that this change is possible without the micromobility industry that promised to make it happen.
Basically, bikeshare and similar schemes work better when the people in charge of them are the people in charge of the roads and so on, rather than a commercial enterprise.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: hellymedic on August 10, 2020, 10:23:29 pm
Trotinette électrique

I likes!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on August 17, 2020, 12:04:57 pm
It's going well then... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/escooter-trial-middlesbrough-hartlepool-tees-valley-ben-houchen-ginger-uk-first-a9649561.html
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 17, 2020, 12:05:48 pm
It's going well then... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/escooter-trial-middlesbrough-hartlepool-tees-valley-ben-houchen-ginger-uk-first-a9649561.html

So filing under "Why can't we have nice things?"

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on August 17, 2020, 12:12:35 pm
I'd love to see a similar write up about shenanigans involving cars on the average Middlesbrough weekend.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on August 17, 2020, 01:42:33 pm
I'm not sure the hire schemes are terribly relevant. Electric scooters are here, being ridden on the streets and occasionally through the shopping centres (which are often designated as streets anyway, even though pedestrianised). Buy one from your LBS, a dedicated shop or most likely online.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on August 17, 2020, 04:11:33 pm
The hire scheme "trials" are essentially a typical government fudge designed to let them accommodate the facts on the ground (as you say, they are here and being used illegally on the road and pavement), while trying to sound reasonable to the people who object. Eventually, they will just be a regular source of complaint for a certain segment of the population (much like those red light jumping cyclists who always ride on the pavement and terrorise the pedestrian, while simultaneously holding up traffic) while the rest of us just get on with things.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on August 17, 2020, 06:16:36 pm
We might take inspiration from the Netherlands and end up with a three-tier system, where everyone hates BloodyCyclists and ScooterHooligans, but cyclists get to make themselves feel slightly better by looking down on the scooter users.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on August 17, 2020, 06:17:29 pm
We might take inspiration from the Netherlands and end up with a three-tier system, where everyone hates BloodyCyclists and ScooterHooligans, but cyclists get to make themselves feel slightly better by looking down on the scooter users.

And everyone looks down on fucking tourists...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on August 17, 2020, 06:19:12 pm
We might take inspiration from the Netherlands and end up with a three-tier system, where everyone hates BloodyCyclists and ScooterHooligans, but cyclists get to make themselves feel slightly better by looking down on the scooter users.

And everyone looks down on fucking tourists...

J
But unlike the Netherlands, tourists don't come to Britain for fucking...  :o
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on August 17, 2020, 06:24:14 pm
We might take inspiration from the Netherlands and end up with a three-tier system, where everyone hates BloodyCyclists and ScooterHooligans, but cyclists get to make themselves feel slightly better by looking down on the scooter users.

And everyone looks down on fucking tourists...

Up, down, sideways and on a bad day behind, as anyone who's done the Parliament Square Slalom can attest.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on September 04, 2020, 03:17:09 pm
And we're off:

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2020/09/04/electric-scooters-to-hit-black-country-streets-soon-as-deal-is-struck/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2020/09/04/electric-scooters-to-hit-black-country-streets-soon-as-deal-is-struck/)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on September 04, 2020, 03:36:08 pm
I look forward to them appearing in a nearby canal soon...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 06, 2020, 07:54:12 pm
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/nhs-keyworker-told-electric-scooter-4481510
Bloke on electric scooter arrested, handcuffed, scooter to be destroyed, after he ducked under police tape. Long article, sounds like the bloke was a bit of a pillock but it does raise the Catch 22 legal situation (as described by police).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: SoreTween on September 06, 2020, 09:45:42 pm
Sorry but no, it is not a catch 22 at all. Hire scooters are speed limited and insured. Privately owned scooters are neither.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Ashaman42 on September 06, 2020, 10:45:50 pm
Plus "There was Police tape across the road, I had to duck and enter the incident scene to avoid breaking it"

What happened to riding at a speed at which you can stop in the distance you can see to be safe?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 07, 2020, 09:35:51 am
Plus "There was Police tape across the road, I had to duck and enter the incident scene to avoid breaking it"

What happened to riding at a speed at which you can stop in the distance you can see to be safe?
Exactly. I think there's a story here which is, regardless of his vehicle, he was riding/driving like a moron.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on September 07, 2020, 12:56:54 pm
Quote from: Paraphrased
I was warned I was riding an illegal vehicle before, but carried on riding it. The second time I was stopped by the police (by riding into a scene of crime area) they confiscated my illegal vehicle.  Boo hoo, it's not fair.

And I love the "I'm a law abiding person" bit, attached to an entire story about how he's been knowingly riding an illegal vehicle for months.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Tim Hall on September 08, 2020, 09:33:50 pm
On my drive home from work the Worth Way (a disused railway now shared use path) crosses the road. As I approached it a mountain-looking bike and rider appeared from it on my right and turned onto the road I was driving on a little in front of me. I've done the very same move myself when I cycle to work.

The rider had fairly good road sense, good number of shoulder checks, avoiding the larger potholes, that sort of thing.  I eased off, as you do, as there was a bend coming up, poor sightlines, didn't want to crowd him. Then I realised he was going some and not pedaling. My speedo had him north of 35mph, nudging 40.  I surmised he's on an electrically powered bike of the not legal sort. Either a homebrew conversion or one that's been hacked.

I can't put my finger on what annoyed me, other than I'm a law abiding kind of bloke. Over there > are the various road laws and in front of me was a bloke who broke them. It's not a "what might happen to him if he slides down the tarmac in his shorts" thing. I'll get the same result if I overcook a corner going at R17 on a pedal or pedal and gravity powered bike.  He even slowed down when he entered the 30 limit and was riding sensibly, damn him.

I'd like to have got a closer look, but he got through the traffic and round a roundabout faster than I did.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on September 10, 2020, 06:21:17 pm
https://twitter.com/BhamUpdates/status/1304079688264871936

Wondering if I should go and try one before they end up in the canal...


ETA: I installed the app.  It seems that you're not allowed to leave them outside the Middleway.  So only any good for getting around the city centre.  Which is small enough to be walkable for most people, and utterly impenetrable east-west.  The scheme may fail without any help from the canals.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on September 10, 2020, 06:32:29 pm
https://twitter.com/BhamUpdates/status/1304079688264871936

Wondering if I should go and try one before they end up in the canal...


ETA: I installed the app.  It seems that you're not allowed to leave them outside the Middleway.  So only any good for getting around the city centre.  Which is small enough to be walkable for most people, and utterly impenetrable east-west.  The scheme may fail without any help from the canals.

You should try one anyway... For science...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on September 10, 2020, 07:16:19 pm
If the trial goes ahead in Wolverhampton my understanding is that the scooters will be 'geo-fenced' to within the ring road with corridors out to East Park, West Park and the Science Park (which is next to a canal).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 10, 2020, 08:01:09 pm
I do think you should try one and report back for our education and entertainment.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on September 10, 2020, 08:13:13 pm
If the trial goes ahead in Wolverhampton my understanding is that the scooters will be 'geo-fenced' to within the ring road with corridors out to East Park, West Park and the Science Park (which is next to a canal).

Will that be like the supermarket trolleys that lock up dead when you cross the boundary, or like the dockless bikes that just fine you / remove some kudos if you try to end your rental outside the zone?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: graculus on September 10, 2020, 08:45:49 pm
If the trial goes ahead in Wolverhampton my understanding is that the scooters will be 'geo-fenced' to within the ring road with corridors out to East Park, West Park and the Science Park (which is next to a canal).

Will that be like the supermarket trolleys that lock up dead when you cross the boundary, or like the dockless bikes that just fine you / remove some kudos if you try to end your rental outside the zone?

What I jotted down from what was said at the last Wolverhampton Council Cycle Forum was "The trial machines can be geo-fenced to the trial zone (ie they won't work outside it) but not accurately enough to distinguish between the road and pavement." The official minutes that the secretary (a council officer) produces probably won't be issued until the week before the next meeting (15/10/20).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on September 10, 2020, 09:50:44 pm
And the first predictable unintended consequence: https://twitter.com/jordanbhx/status/1304134069744218119

(Now I have a £4 trial code.  Ho ho ho.)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 10, 2020, 10:35:12 pm
Quote
used the 4 quid free trial code HELLOUK affixed to the scooter,
So it's a hell ook. Probably no competition for Finestre and Jess though.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on September 11, 2020, 09:13:31 pm
You should try one anyway... For science...

I do think you should try one and report back for our education and entertainment.

Abstract: It's got wheels and it's faster than walking.

(http://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/voi01/2020_09_11_16_47_36.sized.jpg)

(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on September 11, 2020, 09:27:39 pm

Abstract: It's got wheels and it's faster than walking.

That's a good start!

Quote
Some areas (in this case pedestrianised streets that are legal to cycle on) are geofenced as 'Slow Zones' - the speed limiting automatically drops to about 6.5kph here, which is a fast walk.  This is quite disconcerting when travelling uphill, as you feel that it's on the cusp of stall speed, which might be problematic for those with less good balance.  You also get glared at by pedestrians, who appear not to be able to work out whether to fear that you're about to kill them utterly to DETH, or wonder why the fuck you're riding so slowly.  Due to the foibles of GPS, you can't really anticipate exactly when it will leave the geofence, so the first thing you know is a sudden burst of acceleration.

When you go into the slow zones, what happens? does it just cut the motor? or is some sort of brake applied?

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 11, 2020, 09:27:47 pm
I'm impressed that those titchy wheels with, I presume, solid tyres, cope decently with potholes and tram lines.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on September 11, 2020, 09:31:05 pm
When you go into the slow zones, what happens? does it just cut the motor? or is some sort of brake applied?

It cuts the motor, similar to completely releasing the throttle.  Not sure if it's doing regenerative braking or just stodgy tyres, but it doesn't keep rolling the way a bicycle would, so while there isn't sharp deceleration you slow down reasonably quickly.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 11, 2020, 09:36:22 pm
So you get no motor power at all in the slow zones and have to kick along? Or just reduced power?

And presumably the not starting the motor until it's rolling is to prevent people starting it up without anyone on board, sending it careering into random pedestrians and canals.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on September 11, 2020, 09:42:17 pm
The speaker is surely for the annoying alarm as if flies into the canal you evict it from blocking the pavement.

Does it have the annoying feature where the motor won’t kick in until you’ve got it going by leg power? I spent ages thinking the Lime one in Paris was broken.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on September 11, 2020, 09:56:18 pm
So you get no motor power at all in the slow zones and have to kick along? Or just reduced power?

The motor works as normal, but it's a lower speed limit (it's like the speed limiting on a e-bike, rather than the crude power limiting of a small combustion-engine motorcycle).  It's probably allowing the same instantaneous power as at full speed, but you won't get to use that for very long before you're up to 4mph.


Quote
And presumably the not starting the motor until it's rolling is to prevent people starting it up without anyone on board, sending it careering into random pedestrians and canals.

Indeed.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on September 11, 2020, 09:57:41 pm
The speaker is surely for the annoying alarm as if flies into the canal you evict it from blocking the pavement.

Ah, that makes sense!


Quote
Does it have the annoying feature where the motor won’t kick in until you’ve got it going by leg power? I spent ages thinking the Lime one in Paris was broken.

You have to give it a kick (or let it roll downhill a bit) to get it moving before the throttle has any effect, which took a bit of getting used to.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: RichForrest on September 11, 2020, 11:39:57 pm
At least they currently have reflective stickers on so you can see them abandoned/scattered across the cyclepaths when they are finished with around here when riding home in the dark  ::-) :facepalm:
There are often 3 or 4 laying in the middle of the paths most nights when I ride home!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on September 15, 2020, 06:33:18 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-54164922

Total lack of surprise...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Jakob W on September 15, 2020, 08:09:54 pm
^ some top h*lm*t-wearing from Andy Street in the photo on that news story there...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on September 15, 2020, 09:57:06 pm
Lots of people seemed to be using them when I rode through town this evening.  I think I saw about a 50:50 mix of road and pavement use, likely on account of the inconvenient one-way roads and sporadic cycle infrastructure.

I think we're going to see a clutter problem, too.  People don't seem to be considering pedestrians when they park them.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: davelodwig on September 16, 2020, 10:28:05 am
Lots of people seemed to be using them when I rode through town this evening.  I think I saw about a 50:50 mix of road and pavement use, likely on account of the inconvenient one-way roads and sporadic cycle infrastructure.

I think we're going to see a clutter problem, too.  People don't seem to be considering pedestrians when they park them.

They don't consider pedestrians when they park their cars so they are hardly going to start now with scooters.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on September 16, 2020, 10:42:30 am
Total lack of surprise...

That the BBC are publishing one-sided unsourced clearly exaggerated bollocks?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on September 17, 2020, 02:24:58 pm

https://twitter.com/allpartycycling/status/1306584327103238144

Well that's a surprise...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 17, 2020, 03:12:49 pm
To be followed over time by e-bikes and then pedal cycles?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on September 17, 2020, 04:24:07 pm
The rental company are doing it voluntarily, so the tweet wording is slightly alarmist.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: hubner on September 17, 2020, 09:25:05 pm
https://www.businessinsider.com/voi-electric-scooter-trial-in-coventry-suspended-over-rider-complaints-2020-9

Quote
E-scooter firm Voi blamed a suspended trial on the UK's 'antisocial behaviour issue' and said it will fit vehicles with identification plates

An electric scooter scheme in Coventry, UK, has been stopped after locals reported riders weaving through traffic and mounting the sidewalk.

Voi, the Swedish e-scooter company operating the vehicles in Coventry and other UK cities, said it would install identification plates on all its scooters to "improve the ability of local police to report an issue or for CCTV to identify a vehicle."

Richard Corbett, Voi’s general manager for Britain and Ireland, told The Times that the UK had an "antisocial behaviour issue."

[snip]
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on September 17, 2020, 09:31:31 pm
I wonder if the UK's antisocial behaviour issue is that people ride more antisocially, or that people are more inclined to consider people riding scooters to be antisocial enough to complain about?  Probably a bit of both.

Wonder if Voi could generate relevant statistics based on GPS data...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Pickled Onion on September 17, 2020, 09:56:24 pm
Offs

News yesterday—some people said they were *almost* knocked down by someone on an escooter.
Escooter trial halted.

Not news yesterday—a colleague of mine was *actually* knocked down by an Uber driver on a pedestrian crossing.
No one really gives a shit

News today—escooter riders seen mounting the pavement.
Escooter company to make big changes to stop this.

Not news today— millions of drivers mount the pavement with their several tonnes of car, leave it in the way, break the paving
No one really gives a shit.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on September 18, 2020, 12:05:01 am
News yesterday—some people said they were *almost* knocked down by someone on an escooter.

"Almost knocked down" as applied to out-group users of wheeled transport (cycles, scooters, skateboards, etc) seems to be a BRITISH cultural meme, which can mean everything from an actual near miss to "I saw someone riding a bike!".  I don't doubt they're terrified (I've seen the way that pedestrians leap in random directions on shared paths when you ring your bell from a polite distance), but I do wonder how much of that fear is based in reality rather than - say - clickbait...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: toontra on September 18, 2020, 09:13:29 am
Offs

News yesterday—some people said they were *almost* knocked down by someone on an escooter.
Escooter trial halted.

Not news yesterday—a colleague of mine was *actually* knocked down by an Uber driver on a pedestrian crossing.
No one really gives a shit

News today—escooter riders seen mounting the pavement.
Escooter company to make big changes to stop this.

Not news today— millions of drivers mount the pavement with their several tonnes of car, leave it in the way, break the paving
No one really gives a shit.

Some weird logic there.  E-scooters ridden irresponsibly pose an additional risk to pedestrians.  Just because some car drivers act like twats doesn't justify adding to the threat - perceived or real.

I've seen some really bad e-scooter action in London in recent weeks.  Definitely unnerving for peds and potentially bloody dangerous.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on September 18, 2020, 10:17:21 am
Fitting plates to them seems to be logical - they are being operated under a variation of the motor vehicle laws and require a driving licence to operate.
That said, it sounds like it's just the rental company doing it - they can then identify riders who are complained about and ban them from the network.

Some complaints will be justified and some not. Today I saw some pretty anti-social e-bike riding by someone with a hood up riding a beat up old mountainbike with some sort of conversion duct taped to the main triangle (including blatting along the pavement at >30mph). No incident occurred, but I can't imagine the pedestrians he close passed are going to be very well disposed towards that sort of behaviour. The e-scooters I've seen around (all illegal ones) seem to be ridden mostly sensibly (if ridden by adults, children are another story). The e-skateboards are a menace!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on September 18, 2020, 12:26:09 pm
Whereas I've never seen an e-skateboard ridden anything but sensibly.  It's non-electric BSOs that are favoured for reckless riding.  (Scooters are somewhere in the middle, and e-bikes are usually[1] ridden sensibly, even if they're sometimes illegally fast.)

Almost as if it's not the means of transport that's the problem, isn't it?


[1] There's an old woman I see locally who rides a folding e-bike with poor luggage provision that she can barely control, often but not exclusively on the busy pavement (presumably through fear of traffic on Silly Oak High Street).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on September 18, 2020, 12:38:40 pm
Almost as if it's not the means of transport that's the problem, isn't it?
Indeed. Idiots are going to idiot.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 18, 2020, 03:37:11 pm
The vast majority of e-scooters I've seen have been ridden on the carriageway.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Pickled Onion on September 18, 2020, 08:07:23 pm
.
Some weird logic there.  E-scooters ridden irresponsibly pose an additional risk to pedestrians.  Just because some car drivers act like twats doesn't justify adding to the threat - perceived or real.

I've seen some really bad e-scooter action in London in recent weeks.  Definitely unnerving for peds and potentially bloody dangerous.

The weird logic is banning something because a handful of users are twats. I see “potentially bloody dangerous” driving every single day—no one is advocating banning cars.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fd3 on September 19, 2020, 11:30:37 pm
I think the stats suggest that there are more unlicensed/uninsured drivers than there are cyclists in total.

It does seem like energy badly spent trying to legislate/police e-scooters when we still have the #1 killer on the loose.  But then in a year's time we could have e-scooter louts all over the place, making pavements unsafe for everyone...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on September 20, 2020, 08:52:56 am
They aren't allowed on pavements, and the legal ones are speed limited to 15 mph.

All the ones that aren't part of the rental trials are completely illegal to use in the country except on private property.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Pickled Onion on September 20, 2020, 10:43:20 am
They should be allowed on cycle paths an roads, the same as ebikes. I understand the worry about riders weaving around pedestrians but I don’t get the antipathy coming from cyclists. More sustainable transport on the roads has to be a good thing.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: fd3 on September 20, 2020, 10:42:20 pm
^95% agree.
It's "more sustainable" transport as opposed to more "sustainable transport".  the main thing atm is less cars, so more space on roads for more road users.  I don't get why something that is slower than a bike needs such harsh legislating.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on September 20, 2020, 10:45:38 pm

Isn't it that they are less controllable than a bike? The stopping distance on them, as well as the chances of face planting being higher always struck me as the weak points.

If the motorcar were to be introduced today, it would never last the H&S risk analysis...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: aidan.f on September 20, 2020, 10:58:33 pm
I just think it's a shame that we have to keep trying to substitute high tech solutions for the most efficient means of personal transport ever invented.. now go on what would that be?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 21, 2020, 11:24:58 am
^95% agree.
It's "more sustainable" transport as opposed to more "sustainable transport".  the main thing atm is less cars, so more space on roads for more road users.  I don't get why something that is slower than a bike needs such harsh legislating.
I'm not sure that an electric scooter is slower than a non-electric bike as ridden by most people. But also, I don't think that's the reason for the legislation. It's mostly neophobia. Actually, that's unfair, as the illegality of the non-hire e-scooters is ignored in 99% of cases. There's an effort to create a commercial space for hire companies, but they'd do better to encompass them all under an adaptation of EAPC regs. <ob cynic>Maybe Dominic Cummings has a mate in the hire companies.</ob cynic>
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on September 21, 2020, 12:35:30 pm
Isn't it that they are less controllable than a bike? The stopping distance on them, as well as the chances of face planting being higher always struck me as the weak points.

The Voi scooter was certainly twitchy and small-wheeled, but didn't feel particularly face-planty (and I say this as a habitual recumbent rider who finds a typical safety bicycle alarmingly face-planty when I haven't ridden one for a while).  I suspect this was a combination of having a *lot* of battery mass low down, and braking performance somewhere between 'Boris Bike' and 'Brompton'.  I can't imagine they handle a decent surface imprefection at all gracefully though.  Which makes riding them on pavements particularly hazardous.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 21, 2020, 12:43:42 pm
Judging from your photo, it seems to have smaller wheels than most but certainly not all of the ones I see. It also looks a bit smaller overall though.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on September 21, 2020, 01:05:35 pm
Judging from your photo, it seems to have smaller wheels than most but certainly not all of the ones I see. It also looks a bit smaller overall though.

I can see how it look like that in the photo, but it's definitely a chunkier example of the species.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 21, 2020, 02:20:27 pm
Generally there seem to be two types that I see: some are like a micro scooter with batteries, some are more like a Vespa that's lost its seat and engine (and therefore its bodywork and thus its Vespish style – though I've seen one or two with a seat, but not Audrey Hepburn or Gregory Peck).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on September 23, 2020, 08:09:53 pm
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/electric-scooter-rider-causes-traffic-18985671      :facepalm:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on September 23, 2020, 09:11:01 pm
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/electric-scooter-rider-causes-traffic-18985671      :facepalm:

Yeah, just look at all that chaos he's causing...  ::-)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on September 23, 2020, 09:12:33 pm
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/electric-scooter-rider-causes-traffic-18985671      :facepalm:

Look at that idiot not using a car like a normal person! Idiot!

You're allowed to ride a bike through that tunnel off peak, which given an e-scooter is basically a bike in every way that matters (apart from the silly legal situation) that article is completely drivel.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 24, 2020, 09:14:52 am
"Dangerously close to the tunnel walls." Wow.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on September 24, 2020, 12:41:01 pm
"Dangerously close to the tunnel walls." Wow.

They've obviously never ridden through Netherton...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: MikeFromLFE on September 25, 2020, 12:52:44 pm
I've just discovered that e-scooters are not permitted on canal towpaths (well, Canal & River Trust towpaths in England & Wales) : https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/news/position-statement-on-e-scooters
Seems even handed enough to me, but how it'll ever be enforced is a different question.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on September 25, 2020, 01:07:24 pm
Scooters are about as appropriate to use on a towpath as bicycles are.  Fine in moderation for leisure use, but it doesn't scale well in the urban areas when people start trying to use the paths for transport.

I can't imagine the CRT are particularly keen to have someone do a Basil due to a small wheel / knobbly 'heritage' bricks interaction, but obviously not to the point of sorting out the brick hazards.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on October 02, 2020, 12:13:16 pm

Some interesting mixed messages form MP's here, but generally a promising move in the right direction...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54380251

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 02, 2020, 05:26:15 pm
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/e-scooter-trial-set-to-launch-in-bristol-region/
I think Voi is the same company running schemes in Brum?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: barakta on October 02, 2020, 08:35:19 pm
Hire scooter schemes MUST have mandatory docks and agree about harsh enforcement about pavement scootering. The RNIB has been consulting on this for years but we keep allowing dockless hire schemes...
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on October 02, 2020, 09:24:39 pm
Hire scooter schemes MUST have mandatory docks and agree about harsh enforcement about pavement scootering. The RNIB has been consulting on this for years but we keep allowing dockless hire schemes...

Because docks dramatically reduce the utility of such items.

The actual solution is much much more pervasive properly designed parking facilities that bikes and scooters can use. We could start by replacing most of the parking spaces with such things...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 03, 2020, 04:47:45 pm
I think those are both good points. Dockless hire objects, whether e-scooters, e-bikes or good ole p-bikes, do tend to get left in annoying random pavement-littering places. However, this can be reduced; Yo Bikes (dockless hire scheme in Bristol which has been surprisingly successful*) managed to greatly reduce this problem by specifying certain places the bikes had to be left in.

But more bike parking is needed regardless of hire schemes. If it is of a designed that can be used by scooters, kids' bikes, recumbents, trikes and tandems, and of course monowheels and so on, then all the better. When I rule the world** yes, we'll replace every fifth car parking space with such stands.

*In terms of getting people to use the things. I've no idea of and less interest in their finances.
**Or am Jacinda Ardern's deputy, obviously along with Mr Larrington and various other people.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: barakta on October 03, 2020, 09:57:01 pm
Geodocking apparently works as well as physical docks... But there need to be clear docks so hire ones CANNOT be left randomly on pavements or walkways. People tend to be more careful of scooters they own - funnily enough.

If hire systems can't work out how to dock em, then they don't get to have em.

I have a strong wheelchair using friend in London who throws badly placed scooters/hire bikes into the road and I'm inclined to his sentiment. Disabled people are tired of asking nicely, keep pissing us off and we're going to get very militant very fast. See also parked cars and precious paintwork.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: toontra on October 20, 2020, 12:38:23 pm
Well who would have guessed  ::-)

2 reported crimes in my immediate neighbourhood in the last week carried out by kids on "fixed" e-scooters.  One smash-and-grab from a car and someone's phone snatched from their hand.

As with any new technology, early adopters are usually crims so no exception here.  The ideal get-away mode of transport.  This was the epi-centre of the moped crimewave a couple of years ago (London N1).  That had quietened down - now this.

BTW I don't think these particular scooters are part of any trial
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: cycleman on October 20, 2020, 07:17:01 pm
Slough has gained a number of bright orange e scooters which are clumped in various areas around the town. They have Wight helmets hanging on them. I have not seen any under power yes though few seem to be scooted by youths and a number of them now seem to be minus there helmets. I will watch development s with interest  :)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on October 29, 2020, 05:32:39 pm
They've just launched in Bristol. I haven't tried one cos I'm disinclined to pay 20p a minute. Saw two people (ie one couple) who looked to have just unlocked them but didn't hang around to see how they got on with actually riding the things.

Meanwhile in Venice, West Mercia, they've started fishing them out of the Grand Lagoon with magnets.
Quote
A group that uses magnets to fish metal items out of Birmingham's canals has been asked to help retrieve missing e-scooters.
...
Marie Collins, from the Peaky Dippers group, said it had helped fish one from the water and the company had "already told us where there's a few that need pulling out".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c2w7p1q416dt/electric-bikes-and-scooters

And here's the BBC's photo of a rescued scooter just for your entertainment:
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2020/10/20/baf458ae-9baa-4287-828f-1ac272c5657d.jpg)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on October 29, 2020, 06:09:16 pm
They've just launched in Bristol. I haven't tried one cos I'm disinclined to pay 20p a minute.

The "HELLOUK" trial code might work...



Quote
Meanwhile in Venice, West Mercia, they've started fishing them out of the Grand Lagoon with magnets.

Who could have predicted that this entirely predictable thing would have happened?


Quote
A spokesperson from Voi said the company was against any acts of vandalism that could lead to pollution and was developing a "drowning feature" that would alert it immediately when a scooter ended up under water.

I'm picturing a miniature version of the distress beacon buoy thing that submarines send up when the crew's priority abruptly changes from remaining undetected to not drowning (or worse) utterly to DETH.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: aidan.f on October 29, 2020, 08:23:14 pm
Nah, some marketing/PR guy with no basic understanding of physics will now be having long email conversations with frustrated engineers trying to explain why a drowned escooter cannot report it's position.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 02, 2020, 02:30:28 pm
Quote
Scooters are limited to 10mph and in some areas – including around the Floating Harbour and in Broadmead – have their speed automatically reduced further.
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/e-scooter-hire-trials-begin-in-bristol/
I thought they were limited to 15mph?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on November 02, 2020, 02:36:58 pm
Quote
Scooters are limited to 10mph and in some areas – including around the Floating Harbour and in Broadmead – have their speed automatically reduced further.
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/e-scooter-hire-trials-begin-in-bristol/
I thought they were limited to 15mph?

Interesting.  I was definitely managing 24kph on the Birmingham one.

Wonder if they've lowered the limit, or it's just journalistic inaccuracy.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 02, 2020, 02:44:55 pm
Could be the former but your experience suggests the latter.

The article also sets out the geographical boundary; I'm right on the edge of it, which might or might not be why I found six of them cluttering up the pavement around a mini-roundabout yesterday. Some had been left fairly sensibly but I nearly walked into one that was just round a blind corner on a rather narrow pavement.

Also:
Quote
On the evening before the start of the trial, I downloaded the Voi app to see one scooter already on the map – in the middle of the Floating Harbour near Pero’s Bridge.

And what's more:
Quote
Before using a scooter for the first time, I had to take a photo of my driving license via the app. Safety is obviously a top priority and the scooter automatically slowed down when I turned left off Anchor Road into the Harbourside development.

It’s a smart bit of technology. And if these scooters can do this, why not cars?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on November 02, 2020, 03:30:44 pm
Maybe the Bristol scheme has a lower speed limit that is in place elsewhere? If one were actually using this to conduct a trial it would make sense to vary the maximum speed in different schemes and see what effect that has on takeup etc.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 03, 2020, 03:12:23 pm
It seems the 10mph limit is correct. After a month or so it will be raised to 25km/h.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 04, 2020, 11:57:50 am
Splash! (https://www.instagram.com/reel/CHDB0HgD9hn/?utm_source=ig_embed)
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/moment-citys-first-legal-electric-4664538
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 05, 2020, 08:15:27 pm
Key workers e-scoot for free but only during lockdown.
Quote
Voi, the company leading the e-scooter trial in Bristol, will offer anyone with an NHS identity, Blue Light Card or Defence Discount Service the chance to use the scooters free of charge during the second lockdown.
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/nhs-and-emergency-service-staff-can-ride-the-new-e-scooters-for-free-during-lockdown/
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on November 16, 2020, 12:37:45 pm
https://www.merseyside.police.uk/news/merseyside/news/2020/november/merseyside-police-urge-parents-and-guardians-to-resconsider-before-buying-electric-scooters-for-christmas/



"Liverpool City Council launched an e-scooter programme within the city centre. For a trial period of one year, around 150 scooters have been made available for members of the public to hire and ride during certain times, within the confines of the approved area, which runs from Boundary Street to Sefton Street.


“Only these scooters are legal to ride, with all privately owned e-scooters remaining illegal to ride anywhere other than private land. The scooters used in the trials will be treated as motor vehicles, and you must be over 18 years of age and have at least a provisional driving licence to use one. "


The public hire scooters do seem to be popular in my part of town (near the university) .   I've yet to try one myself. 
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 19, 2020, 02:51:05 pm
I had a brief ride on last night. There's a distribution point at a street corner near me* and one had been left there either somehow already activated or more likely abandoned before its hire time expired. So I had a little go on it. Not very successfully; my balance on an electric scooter is no better than on a kick scooter and I also had trouble figuring out the throttle thing. So all I can say is that the steering is quick and the motion is slow.

*It's an odd site for a distribution point as according to the map I've seen it's right on the edge of the operating zone. OTOH it's on a hill which some people might not be arsed to walk up and there are lots of students, who seem to be the main users of these things, around.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on November 20, 2020, 06:38:31 pm
Earlier this evening I saw a Deliveroo-ist on one. I would have thought the hire charge would wipe out all her earnings.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: cycleman on November 20, 2020, 07:44:33 pm
I have seen quite a lot of the slough ones being used recently much to my surprise. I see a few being used by youngsters who I suspect don't have a licence of any type though  :-\
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on November 21, 2020, 05:50:22 pm
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/crimes-electric-scooters-london-metropolitan-police-b74967.html


Scooterists are evul!   


I'm slightly annoyed that the docks for the local cycle hire scheme are full of these things & also electrically assisted bikes.   It's getting hard to find one of the ordinary pedal ones!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on December 18, 2020, 05:47:23 pm
https://liverpoolexpress.co.uk/citys-e-scooter-scheme-expands-due-to-demand/


"Since its launch in October this year, people in Liverpool have taken over 72,000 rides and travelled nearly 210,500 km. Currently, there are over 21,000 unique registered riders in Liverpool with the number continuing to grow. "
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on December 29, 2020, 05:22:04 pm
Asked my son if any of his friends had tried the hire scooters. Yes, two of them had. And the requirement for a driving licence? One of them has a provisional licence and they just used that for both scooters. So if the system accepts the same licence for two different scooters at the same time, presumably it doesn't check them at all. I wonder if you could use, say, a bus pass? Anyway, they were reported to be good fun but at £12 an hour they eat up too much of a teenager's finances.

I've also seen evidence that 400W is enough to maintain a reasonable speed two-up.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on December 29, 2020, 05:28:05 pm
Also, long term hire for £35 a month, with no geographical limits on usage.
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/bristol-baths-e-scooter-scheme-4839011
Quote
The new Bristol electric scooter trial is about to launch a second trial which would allow people to take them home and effectively ‘own’ them.
...
It is to be the second stage of the pilot scheme which allows electric scooters to be legally ridden on the roads of Bristol and Bath.
...
One big difference with the lease scheme, which is planned to go live in the New Year, is that it seems likely will be no restriction on areas that leased e-scooters can be ridden, given it is open to anyone in the West of England Combined Authority region.
Voi emailed all the people who have signed up to the app already, asking for an expression of interest in the lease scheme, which is set to cost £35 a month.

For that fee, people leasing an e-scooter will get their own to take home. The would be responsible for charging it each night, but Voi would be responsible for maintenance.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on December 29, 2020, 05:37:42 pm
That's comparable to the Brompton-as-a-service service (https://bromptonsubscription.com/).   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on December 29, 2020, 06:05:00 pm
We've got one of those as well, strategically placed just outside the main (or not main, but busiest) exit from Temple Meads. No way of knowing (as far as I'm aware) when you see someone on a Brompton, whether they've bought or hired it, though. But thumbs up to Brompton for showing people in non-cycling clothes and non-helmets (whereas Voi show users in helmets even though virtually nobody actually wears one while riding them).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on December 29, 2020, 06:15:25 pm
We've got one of those as well, strategically placed just outside the main (or not main, but busiest) exit from Temple Meads. No way of knowing (as far as I'm aware) when you see someone on a Brompton, whether they've bought or hired it, though.

This is a new thing for long-term leasing, in addition to the existing BromptonDock daily hire scheme.  Dunno if it's the same bikes - I think they are distributing them through the same docks - but the BromptonDock ones have a specific colour scheme that varies by region.  (The Birmingham ones are a lovely purple, which I asked, and wasn't available as a colour option on a purchased Brompton.)

As for helmets, there are Voi adverts telling you to "Protect your head" running on the local electronic road-user-distraction boards.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on December 29, 2020, 06:28:31 pm
We've got one of those as well, strategically placed just outside the main (or not main, but busiest) exit from Temple Meads. No way of knowing (as far as I'm aware) when you see someone on a Brompton, whether they've bought or hired it, though

The rental ones have a conspicuous sticker on the main tube telling you how to unfold them step by step.

(they hasn't started doing that the first time I rented one, and spent a load of time failing to raise the seatpost)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on January 09, 2021, 02:09:20 pm
Watching the scooterboys going past my window, I can't help wonder how they don't get frostbite.  It's 21C in here an my fingers are cold.  It's 2C out there, and they're whizzing around without any gloves.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on January 09, 2021, 02:13:02 pm
They are warmed by the happiness of personal mobility.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on January 09, 2021, 05:12:00 pm
Watching the scooterboys going past my window, I can't help wonder how they don't get frostbite.  It's 21C in here an my fingers are cold.  It's 2C out there, and they're whizzing around without any gloves.

I see Dutch people cycling around without gloves on, and I'm using my winter gloves, and have considered putting on my "It's really fucking cold" gloves. I ended up putting liner gloves on inside my winter gloves last week because it was so cold, tho not quite full on "It's really fucking cold" gloves territory.

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on January 09, 2021, 05:30:15 pm
I've got chilblains on my knuckles from a 20km ride in my "winter going to the shops" gloves[1] last week.


[1] Well-worn Aldi gloves from some years ago.  Admirably durable, easy to get on and off, moderately warm when dry and completely hopeless when wet.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on January 09, 2021, 05:35:28 pm
I've got chilblains on my knuckles from a 20km ride in my "winter going to the shops" gloves[1] last week.


[1] Well-worn Aldi gloves from some years ago.  Admirably durable, easy to get on and off, moderately warm when dry and completely hopeless when wet.

My winter gloves are altura night vision waterproof ones. Which are pretty good, they kept my hands warm yesterday at -2°C. But the waterproof thing is a bit of a misnomer. Yes they stop water getting from one side of the glove to the other, but that seems to only work one way. They fill up with water very easily, and then you can never get the bloody stuff out...

When it gets really cold I break out these:

http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/products/hi-vis-mitt/

Don't need them often, usually 1-2 rides a year, but when I do, I am exceptionally grateful to have them.

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on January 09, 2021, 05:48:07 pm
Kim, I know you've complained of cold feet on the bent which warm up as soon as you stop and put them down; a circulation problem. Probably the same thing affecting your hands. My hands get cold if I sit for too long in classic "laptop on knees" position for a similar reason.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Redlight on January 09, 2021, 06:18:18 pm

When it gets really cold I break out these:

http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/products/hi-vis-mitt/
J

Maybe a daft question, but how do you change gear?  I've tried mitts but found that I can't move the shifters easily.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on January 09, 2021, 06:34:05 pm

When it gets really cold I break out these:

http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/products/hi-vis-mitt/
J

Maybe a daft question, but how do you change gear?  I've tried mitts but found that I can't move the shifters easily.

On my old tiagra mechanical system, i used my fingers. There's enough dexterity in the mitts to do so.

Now I have Di2 i have two options. Using my thumb on the base bar, or slap the button on the upright of my aero bars. I have made sure my setup works in event of reduced dexterity due to cold or distance. One of the problems for some ultra racers is the claw, where they lose dexterity. The slap shift setup still works...

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Lightning Phil on January 09, 2021, 06:52:34 pm

When it gets really cold I break out these:

http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/products/hi-vis-mitt/
J

Maybe a daft question, but how do you change gear?  I've tried mitts but found that I can't move the shifters easily.

That’s the challenge of dual control shifters / brakes.  If you have bar end shifters then shifting or braking with mitts is really easy.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on January 09, 2021, 07:20:45 pm
Kim, I know you've complained of cold feet on the bent which warm up as soon as you stop and put them down; a circulation problem. Probably the same thing affecting your hands. My hands get cold if I sit for too long in classic "laptop on knees" position for a similar reason.

Yes, the circulation in my hands and feet has always been rubbish (but not the the point of Raynauld's).  Feet are less important, as I'm not usually trying to type with them.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Flite on January 09, 2021, 08:00:10 pm
The Buffalo mitts really are quite flexible. 
I can use brakes and gears in them even with arthritic hands and reynaulds. Most winter-weight gloves are too stiff for me to move my fingers at all. The Buffalos are slippy, but I've got used to them.
When young, we used sheepskin mitts from the Army and Navy Surplus stores. Not very manouverable, but we didn't have gears to shift anyway!
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Adam on January 09, 2021, 10:16:24 pm
The next logical development will be "Alexa, change down to 6th gear". 
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on January 09, 2021, 10:22:39 pm
The next logical development will be "Alexa, change down to 6th gear".

Another[1] application for DI2 automagic shifting?


[1] Other than people with no mechanical sympathy, for whom they seem to be genuinely useful.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: quixoticgeek on January 09, 2021, 11:05:57 pm
The next logical development will be "Alexa, change down to 6th gear".

Another[1] application for DI2 automagic shifting?


[1] Other than people with no mechanical sympathy, for whom they seem to be genuinely useful.

I have the syncro shifting. It's brilliant. One button up. One down. And cos of the position on the upright of my bars. I can just slap the buttons. But they are also close enough together i can control both with the same thumb for one handed control.

Di2 is brilliant. I may struggle to go back to a bike without it.

J
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on January 09, 2021, 11:44:05 pm
The next logical development will be "Alexa, change down to 6th gear".

Another[1] application for DI2 automagic shifting?


[1] Other than people with no mechanical sympathy, for whom they seem to be genuinely useful.

I have the syncro shifting. It's brilliant. One button up. One down. And cos of the position on the upright of my bars. I can just slap the buttons. But they are also close enough together i can control both with the same thumb for one handed control.

No, I mean the fully automatic shifting that's available when DI2 is integrated with STEPS.  As a Cyclist it's horrible, of course, as the shifts happen without warning (I think the motor backs off, but the rider doesn't).  But I had low expectations and it does seem to pick reasonably sensible gears (certainly more so than some mechanically unsympathetic bike-users would), and of course it's completely hands-free.

DI2/STEPS buttons are a fine example of handlebar ergonomics.  I just wish they were  a) cheaper  and  b) available as dry-contacts.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: mzjo on January 10, 2021, 04:53:45 pm
I've got chilblains on my knuckles from a 20km ride in my "winter going to the shops" gloves[1] last week.


[1] Well-worn Aldi gloves from some years ago.  Admirably durable, easy to get on and off, moderately warm when dry and completely hopeless when wet.

My winter gloves are altura night vision waterproof ones. Which are pretty good, they kept my hands warm yesterday at -2°C. But the waterproof thing is a bit of a misnomer. Yes they stop water getting from one side of the glove to the other, but that seems to only work one way. They fill up with water very easily, and then you can never get the bloody stuff out...

When it gets really cold I break out these:

http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/products/hi-vis-mitt/

Don't need them often, usually 1-2 rides a year, but when I do, I am exceptionally grateful to have them.

J
When I was a budding motorcycle courier (before I got to know how to do it proper) I was sold a pair of Oxford Aquaprufe gloves as being watertight. They were too!!  >:( >:(  Filled up nicely they did, right to the top. Afterwards I learnt to use a pair of thin racing gloves that were short enough to slip inside the cuffs of my jacket. They didn't fill up, they were thin enough to dry fast and at a pinch I could put silk liners in them for the cold days (helped by muffs over the levers) Most of that (except the muffs) would transfer to a bicycle. I didn't ever have heated grips!
FWIW my cold weather gloves are motorcycle gloves that no longer have the EU compliance labels (and yes, the flics to stop motards to check the legality of their gloves. I think the fine might even be 135€)
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on January 11, 2021, 09:45:35 pm
E-scooters a non-event, says cynical cop.
Quote
Avon & Somerset Constabulary traffic management unit boss Richard McKiernan told a remote meeting that he had expected carnage on roads and pavements during the West of England Combined Authority’s (Weca’s) pilot project.

Instead it has been a “policing non-event” and he has been “massively reassured” by the trial, which metro mayor Tim Bowles says will become vital in how we move around the region for generations to come.
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/police-chiefs-won-over-weca-4877525
They must have gone out very early in the morning to get that photo of an empty Portway.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on February 12, 2021, 05:11:27 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aYOU-bFGOY   Going well in Liverpool , though I've yet to risk my personal dignity.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on February 18, 2021, 09:55:50 am
Oxfordshire is now doing a trial with Voi.  50 scooters based in Headington to start with - £1 fee plus 20p per minute. 10mph speed limit and only available 6am to 10pm.
https://news.oxfordshire.gov.uk/new-escooter-launch/

This sounds interesting:
Quote
offering incentives and encouraging riders to take Voi’s accredited e-scooter digital traffic school, which has trained over half a million users.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on February 18, 2021, 01:07:27 pm
Oxfordshire is now doing a trial with Voi.  50 scooters based in Headington to start with - £1 fee plus 20p per minute. 10mph speed limit and only available 6am to 10pm.
https://news.oxfordshire.gov.uk/new-escooter-launch/

This sounds interesting:
Quote
offering incentives and encouraging riders to take Voi’s accredited e-scooter digital traffic school, which has trained over half a million users.

I just had a go.  First question:

Quote
Why is it important to always wear a helmet?
a) It prevents your skull from fracturing
b) All of the mentioned
c) It prevents and reduces injuries
d) It can save your life in the case of an accident

It rejected my answer "It prevents and reduces injuries".

...turns out it wants "All of the mentioned"  :facepalm:


Anyway, it seems to be a mixture of the sort of questions we all know from the driving theory test, combined with questions on how the scooters work, where they should be parked, whether you're colourblind, and so on.

Some problematic answers pertaining to parking the scooters on the pavement rather than the road, and riding in the gutter, but it's mostly sensible.  And I now have £5 of scooter credit to play with.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: grams on February 18, 2021, 01:10:07 pm
whether you're colourblind

Is this a "oi mate, didn't you see that light was red?" type question?
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on February 18, 2021, 01:14:10 pm
whether you're colourblind

Is this a "oi mate, didn't you see that light was red?" type question?

It's a "We've drawn a traffic light that looks nothing like a traffic light, with all the lights dark and a bright blue bike symbol, what does it mean?" question.  I fixated on the cycle symbol and failed to spot the stylised aura around the red light the first time.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on February 18, 2021, 01:58:49 pm
Oxfordshire is now doing a trial with Voi.  50 scooters based in Headington to start with - £1 fee plus 20p per minute. 10mph speed limit and only available 6am to 10pm.
https://news.oxfordshire.gov.uk/new-escooter-launch/

This sounds interesting:
Quote
offering incentives and encouraging riders to take Voi’s accredited e-scooter digital traffic school, which has trained over half a million users.

I just had a go.  First question:

Quote
Why is it important to always wear a helmet?
a) It prevents your skull from fracturing
b) All of the mentioned
c) It prevents and reduces injuries
d) It can save your life in the case of an accident

It rejected my answer "It prevents and reduces injuries".

...turns out it wants "All of the mentioned"  :facepalm:
My amazement is almost as big as a fruit fly.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on February 18, 2021, 02:11:19 pm
Yes, I did that the other day & now have £5 of credit as well.  I think they also refund your £1 hire fee if you park in an approved spot, which around here means they are cluttering up the rental bike stations.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: andrewc on March 06, 2021, 10:20:11 pm
I finally had a go & rode from Mulberry St down to Church St,  13 minutes involving a main road with traffic lights & a couple of "shared use" areas which are classed as slow zones (Expanse ref, Splat!)


It took about 5 minutes to process my pic & driving licence, then I was away for a little scoot up & down Mulberry St.  Not sure I like this,  I feel a little unbalanced & am not sure what is the best position for  my size 10's on the bed of the scooter. 


Onto the main road, Myrtle St (A5039) and down the hill in traffic , skirting some roadworks & 2 sets of traffic lights.  Not liking this,  I don't feel that stable & the cars seem to be giving me less clearance than if I was on a bike.    Onto Bold St, which is usually traffic calmed, but is currently pedestrian only.  Speed drops to something I'd say was slower than my usual walking pace, but seemed to speed up unpredictably. 


Parked the scooter at the Citybike stand in Church St, which as an approved parking spot should give me a £ back on the rental.


That's a general "nah" from me.  I'd prefer one of the hire bikes, but these damn things seem to have usurped them.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on March 16, 2021, 02:13:22 pm
I've just noticed recently that the newer Voi scooters have flashing indicators built in to the bars. At first sight I thought they must be automatically triggered by steering and/or tilt, but on looking at one parked, no, there is a motorbike style switch on the left bar. It's just that people are using them like car drivers do, "I am already turning" not "I intend to turn".
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on March 16, 2021, 04:46:04 pm
Noticed a neat little row of Voi scooters stacked up at either end of the taxi rank compost heap useful bit of filtered permeability (https://goo.gl/maps/eqbfeszZDLFT2ci8A) up by the Barberry.  Having passed a several of them in motion (and not being ridden by the stereotypical scooterboy demographic) on the way there.  It appears they're becoming quite popular for local journeys that aren't well served by public transport.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: MikeFromLFE on March 16, 2021, 05:17:28 pm


there is a motorbike style switch on the left bar. It's just that people are using them like car drivers do, "I am already turning" not "I intend to turn".
That'll be "designed by Audi"

Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Peter on March 18, 2021, 08:12:46 pm
Rochdale's year-long trial is about to start.  The firm is called "Lime", who run a scheme in Salford as well as "125 cities throughout the world".  It'll be interesting to see how it goes and I wish it well.  It's going to cost £1 to unlock the scooter and then 15p per minute, which might encourage use at maximum speed for as much as possible.  The maximum speed has been set at 12mph, so perhaps my suggestions (surely not the only ones!) have been influential!  I'll  try and post on how it goes.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on March 31, 2021, 05:36:41 pm
How do people reckon the speed of these compares to cycling? Having been a lazy slob for the past couple of weeks six months or so, I haven't been out on the bike much so no chance to compare. But today I had a reason to cycle up the Gloucester Road and just ahead of me when I joined the main road were two e-scooters, obviously travelling together, and both two-up. I'm not sure how much if at all that would slow them down on the flat but I overtook them easily on the flat bit. They then overtook me by going through a red light. After the lights, the road goes up a bit and I didn't catch up with them again till 2 miles later (by which time the road is flat again). There were also a couple more traffic lights in there but they were all green for me. AIUI their restricted speed is 15mph. I think the main point here is actually how "efficient" jumping red lights can be when you have a low top speed but potential to maintain that speed (this doesn't mean I'm recommending jumping traffic lights).
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on March 31, 2021, 06:16:07 pm
They seem comparable to e-bikes.  I can overtake them without much drama on the flat, but they're relatively quick uphill (though when I rode one I found it couldn't maintain its maximum speed on a steep climb).  Their standing-start acceleration is hampered by needing to provide a kick, which is down to the skill of the rider, but they do seem to accelerate quickly once in motion.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on March 31, 2021, 07:17:52 pm
They seem comparable to e-bikes.
As you'd expect, really.
Quote
Their standing-start acceleration is hampered by needing to provide a kick, which is down to the skill of the rider, but they do seem to accelerate quickly once in motion.
Another point in favour of jumping the lights.  :demon:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: DuncanM on April 01, 2021, 11:00:28 am
I think it depends on where you are. The Oxford rental ones are limited to 10mph, and that's properly slow, to the point they get overtaken by cyclists (and I think I've seen one get overtaken by a runner!). The private illegal ones vary - some seem capable of about 25mph and are more like mopeds.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: spesh on April 01, 2021, 12:37:49 pm
I think it depends on where you are. The Oxford rental ones are limited to 10mph, and that's properly slow, to the point they get overtaken by cyclists (and I think I've seen one get overtaken by a runner!). The private illegal ones vary - some seem capable of about 25mph and are more like mopeds.

From what I was reading yesterday, the Voi scooters being trialled in Portsmouth are going to be limited to 10 mph until mid-April, after which the limit will be increased to 15.5 mph (25 km/h). The council is also apparently using geo-fencing to keep them out of the pedestrianised zones in the city centre and Southsea.

Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on April 01, 2021, 04:14:48 pm
Yes, they were limited to 10mph for the first month or two in Bristol as well, it's clearly a standard policy for Voi and/or UK LAs. If the geofencing works the same way though, it won't actually keep the scooters out of areas, just reduce them to walking speed.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: SteveC on April 01, 2021, 05:08:05 pm
On my trip into Yeovil to collect beer this afternoon, I noticed a row of scooters on the edge of the town. They're obviously hire ones, but I had no idea we were getting a scheme. Can't see me using them though, even if I do go back to working in the office. Wrong place for anything useful. Might give one a try just for fun.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on April 02, 2021, 05:44:33 pm
Gave way to a pavement-scooterboy at a zebra crossing just now, and noticed that - in classic moped style - his left indicator was blinking away, long forgotten.  So at least some of them have acquired indicators.
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Solocle on April 06, 2021, 10:59:41 am
On my trip into Yeovil to collect beer this afternoon, I noticed a row of scooters on the edge of the town. They're obviously hire ones, but I had no idea we were getting a scheme. Can't see me using them though, even if I do go back to working in the office. Wrong place for anything useful. Might give one a try just for fun.
South Somerset Press Release (https://www.southsomerset.gov.uk/news/2020/10/south-somerset-district-council-launches-e-scooter-trials-with-zwings/)
"For your own safety, don’t ride on roads with a speed limit above 30mph, unless there is a segregated cycle route". So Lysander Road is fine, but NCN 26 isn't...  :facepalm:
Title: Re: e-scooter trial
Post by: Kim on April 12, 2021, 05:51:06 pm
Gave way to a pavement-scooterboy at a zebra crossing just now, and noticed that - in classic moped style - his left indicator was blinking away, long forgotten.  So at least some of them have acquired indicators.

Photographic evidence:

(https://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/voi01/2021_04_12_16_13_23.sized.jpg)
(It's out of focus, that's how you know it's real)

(https://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/voi01/2021_04_12_16_13_12.sized.jpg)
(Too close together at any real distance, as is usual for such things.)

(https://www.ductilebiscuit.net/gallery_albums/voi01/2021_04_12_16_13_05.sized.jpg)
(The complete absence of labelling probably explains why so many of the scooterboys are driving around with the left indicator permanently flashing.)