Is it the end of cash?

[Cudzoziemiec]

Electronic payments apparently down across the rail network.

I was able to buy my ticket ...   

Signals were down on the Falmouth line yesterday* but I saw several people buy tickets electronically between Plymouth and Bristol, both morning and evening.

*The signals on that line are semaphore, but they were down in the sense of broken – and therefore also down in the sense of stop (GWR so upper quadrant).

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've just seen, ironically a mere pebble's chuck from an ATM, a small group of people (maybe half a dozen) in hi-viz, with placards reading "Cash is freedom", "Use it or lose it", something about tracking, and "Central bank currency". The last with no context – was it referring to cash or electronic payments (they're the same currency of course, but...)? Are they for or against a central bank currency?

[road-runner]

I am finding more and more shops in Slovakia will no longer accept 1 or 2 cent coins (hundredths of euros) at all and will round the till total price up to the next 5 cents. Pay by card and you pay exactly the till price without any rounding.

[quixoticgeek]

I am finding more and more shops in Slovakia will no longer accept 1 or 2 cent coins (hundredths of euros) at all and will round the till total price up to the next 5 cents. Pay by card and you pay exactly the till price without any rounding.

This is the case in the Netherlands, and has been for years. What's most annoying is that a lot of places don't even let you use 5 1c coins instead of a 5c coin. As such I have a jar of 1c and 2c coins on the shelf I can't do anything with, and j same even pay them into the bank cos they charge for cash deposits...

J

[chrisbainbridge]

Benefit of Brexit. We can still use our 1p coins because of sovereignty.

[quixoticgeek]

Benefit of Brexit. We can still use our 1p coins because of sovereignty.

And how many thousands of them are needed to buy a tomato?

J

[cygnet]

Typically the price is around 76 pennies because of the way the UK buyers operate, but you've got to be lucky re. delivery times for them to actually be in stock...

Aside: 10p coins seem to have been in shortage for several years, if you pay cash at an automated till much more likely to get 2x5p coins.

The traditional big supermarket cos have been moving to the 20/100 pricing system for a while for all payment mechanisms, but they have to compete with Aldi and Lidl on some items which means they can't stick to it. And results in more pennies in your change if you are using cash.

I have found the self checkouts (UK) allow a combination of payment mechanisms, so am slowly working though small coins topped up by a card payment where necessary - they still currently accept brass coin.

[Kim]

I have found the self checkouts (UK) allow a combination of payment mechanisms, so am slowly working though small coins topped up by a card payment where necessary - they still currently accept brass coin.

This was my preferred way of dealing with small change, back when we (well, mostly barakta, because hand impairment) accumulated small change.  Fill a trouser pocket with the stuff and wander round the corner shaking it out down your trouser leg to feed it to the self-humiliation checkout in exchange for milk.

[quixoticgeek]

I have found the self checkouts (UK) allow a combination of payment mechanisms, so am slowly working though small coins topped up by a card payment where necessary - they still currently accept brass coin.

This was my preferred way of dealing with small change, back when we (well, mostly barakta, because hand impairment) accumulated small change.  Fill a trouser pocket with the stuff and wander round the corner shaking it out down your trouser leg to feed it to the self-humiliation checkout in exchange for milk.

Alas the Dutch are scared of cash. Thus self checkout is always card only, as are most of the human operated checkouts. To underline just how scared of cash they are, if you goto a festival here noone will take cash. You'll have to goto a machine and change your legal tender into plastic tokens that are only accepted at the event, and for which there is no means to change them back into something useful.

When I ask why, Dutch people claim cash is too difficult for people to use. It's exasperating.

J

[Mr Larrington]

Though Miss von Brandenburg's spiffy plugs-into-an-iPhone card reader doesn’t work in Abroad so anyone trying to buy a book, CD, T-shaped shirt ect on the current leg of the tour will have to pay cash or get nowt.

[quixoticgeek]

Though Miss von Brandenburg's spiffy plugs-into-an-iPhone card reader doesn’t work in Abroad so anyone trying to buy a book, CD, T-shaped shirt ect on the current leg of the tour will have to pay cash or get nowt.

This feels like something that should have been checked before leaving the plague isle?

J

[Mr Larrington]

They knew it didn’t work before leaving but I presume found out without sufficient time to do anything about it.

[Cudzoziemiec]

The tokens at festivals things is something I've read about here too. It doesn't mean they won't take cash, it means they won't take money – you have to make this up-front investment and lose whatever you don't use, just a means of sanctioning a rip off AFAICS.

[Feanor]

Though Miss von Brandenburg's spiffy plugs-into-an-iPhone card reader doesn’t work in Abroad so anyone trying to buy a book, CD, T-shaped shirt ect on the current leg of the tour will have to pay cash or get nowt.

Presumable the payment app on the phone is using IP Geolocation to ring-fence it to working in the UK only, or somesuch.
Perhaps using a VPN on the phone back to the UK might help?

But probably not, since its on a phone which will offer a location service which is more reliable than IP geolocation.

[Kim]

Or it won't work with FOREIGN cards, which seems particularly likely in .nl

[quixoticgeek]

Or it won't work with FOREIGN cards, which seems particularly likely in .nl

Maestro and V-pay being almost ubiquitous here.

J

[Mr Larrington]

Miss von Brandenburg reported selling shedloads of Stuffs in .de so Them Germans are clearly not that cash averse.

[Auntie Helen]

Miss von Brandenburg reported selling shedloads of Stuffs in .de so Them Germans are clearly not that cash averse.

They are very keen on cash. Some cafes will only take cash, our farm shop only accepts cards for purchases of 20€ up.

People actually have bank branches to go to to get cash out.

Bank transfers take days though, even between your own accounts at a single institution.

[Kim]

Yes, I thought it was credit cards that Germans were supposed to be averse to...

[quixoticgeek]

Miss von Brandenburg reported selling shedloads of Stuffs in .de so Them Germans are clearly not that cash averse.

They are very keen on cash. Some cafes will only take cash, our farm shop only accepts cards for purchases of 20€ up.

People actually have bank branches to go to to get cash out.

Bank transfers take days though, even between your own accounts at a single institution.

I carry €50, mostly as an In Case Of Germany.

Yes, I thought it was credit cards that Germans were supposed to be averse to...

Are they not one and the same ?

It's the Dutch who don't do credit cards.

J

[ian]

The tokens at festivals things is something I've read about here too. It doesn't mean they won't take cash, it means they won't take money – you have to make this up-front investment and lose whatever you don't use, just a means of sanctioning a rip off AFAICS.

It's common at beer festivals, where you have to buy a bit of paper marked out for 'tokens' which they cross out for each drink.

[Jaded]

The tokens at festivals things is something I've read about here too. It doesn't mean they won't take cash, it means they won't take money – you have to make this up-front investment and lose whatever you don't use, just a means of sanctioning a rip off AFAICS.

It's common at beer festivals, where you have to buy a bit of paper marked out for 'tokens' which they cross out for each drink.

Cash is only a short to medium term solution for token swapping.

In the old days it was all bartering.
Then coins and shit.
Now, electronica.

Trouble is electronica can get followed around. Which is, I guess, why good old thrash metal is better.

[quixoticgeek]

Cash is only a short to medium term solution for token swapping.

In the old days it was all bartering.
Then coins and shit.
Now, electronica.

Not true. Barter relies on the double coincidence of wants. It's all well and good me trying to barter beaver skins for a meal from you, but if you don't want beaver skins, the trade isn't going to happen. In a local community what would happen instead is that you give me a meal, and I owe you one, so maybe 6 months later in the autumn you come to me for a nice fur to make a hat for the winter. Debt repayed.

In the beginning there was debt. Then barter where the double coincidence of wants allows. Then coinage as a way of moving value and debt. Then just promises. Take out a tenner from your wallet. Look at it? What's it worth?

The answer is either ten pounds. Or nothing. If you look closely it says "promise to pay the bearer to the sum of ten pounds" signed chief cashier of the bank of England. It's worth ten pounds because we all accept that it's worth ten pounds, but more crucially, because you can pay the your taxes with it. The UK government can never default on a debt denominated in pounds as it can always print more of them, because they have both no actual value, and the value we decide to give them. Modern money is basically a shared delusion. Bit coin, and other cryptocurrency even more so. That's just a massive multiplayer proof of greater fool theory.

To preempt some replies like: Right, QG you're talking bollocks again give us some citations! Start with "debt, the first 5000 years" by David Graeber. Then move on to "The deficit myth" by Stephanie Kelton.

Trouble is electronica can get followed around. Which is, I guess, why good old thrash metal is better.

A cashless society, is a surveillance society.

J

[cygnet]

Doesn't need to be cash-less for them to surveil you. E.g. tescos are following the lead of US markets with direct price discounts for "tracking" card holders. Expect the others to follow suit soon.

[quixoticgeek]

Doesn't need to be cash-less for them to surveil you. E.g. tescos are following the lead of US markets with direct price discounts for "tracking" card holders. Expect the others to follow suit soon.

Your club card has been about surveillance of your buying habits since the last millennium.

J