Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Topic started by: Tigerrr on 03 September, 2015, 04:46:19 pm
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Thinkin about getting an electric assist bike. Back problems now mean can't pedal properly for a few weeks. Dog needs 10 miles a day which gets by going alongside bike. So what are the electric options (not self built). Most look like BSO's knocked up in china and made of cheese - what's worth looking at?
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I would suggest talking to a specialist dealer. There's a good one in York (https://www.electricbikesales.co.uk/yorkstore) if you happen to live in the area. Lots of options now for electric bikes, depending on how much 'assistance' you want.
And good information and reviews in the 'A to B' magazine - http://www.atob.org.uk/electric-bikes/
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I am in London. Ideally looking for a rental before I buy. Plus interested to know if they are cheaper on the continent - might be going to Spain so could get one there.
Specialized seem to have some very nice looking ones that don't look like grannies shopper.
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KTM do some that look pretty cool:
KTM eCross P (http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/bikes/ecross-p/)
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So what are the electric options (not self built).
Self-built can be as simple as a front wheel swap, bottle cage battery and a funky new bike computer, but fair enough...
Most look like BSO's knocked up in china and made of cheese - what's worth looking at?
That's mainly because of "bikes cost a couple of hundred quid" syndrome, but isn't helped by eg. rear hub motors' reliance on freewheels leading to BSO-grade transmissions. The market seems to be dominated by low-end MTB/hybrids and granny bikes.
Try to have a play with a few e-bike systems (even if attached to BSOs) before buying. Perhaps most fundamentally, there's a big difference between torque sensor and hand throttle (usually combined with crank rotation sensor for EU compliance) control.
10 miles of London shouldn't be too challenging battery-wise.
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self build might be way to go. I have a spare bike that might work.
Anyone know of a London (west) stockist that might do this? Currently my mobility is limited.
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nope, but you may want to ask on this forum
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/forums/electric-bicycles.2/
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self build might be way to go. I have a spare bike that might work.
Anyone know of a London (west) stockist that might do this? Currently my mobility is limited.
If you can get across the ditch, the French equivalent of Halfrauds - Norauto - have discounted high bar, open frame, electric bikes at prices that are significantly lower (in Euros) than most UK bike shops (in ££££s)
Obviously, I don't know how limited your mobility is but it's the end of 'the season' and they want to clear them out and there are some good deals to be had (http://www.norauto.fr/catalog/576_2-roues-accessoires/607_Velos/608_Velos.html;pgid=qqls6sjvl5JSRpTjESNUK0LH00002zPD-D_9) considering the exchange rate ATM. There are four (http://centres.norauto.fr/search?query=dunkerque) depots between Calais & Dunkerque.
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I think you should speak to these people:-
http://www.nationwideebikes.co.uk/
On both our trips to Germany, where electric bikes are very common, we drooled over some lovely ones. By far the best, in my opinion, and given that I have never ridden one, are the Flyers. Swiss-made, absolutely lovely to look at, but certainly not cheap. There was one in the shop window in Kempen which was about €3200.
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Also look into the difference between crank drive and hub drive bikes. I believe crank drive gives more torque and better hill climbing but can't be retrofitted into an existing frame. Modern batteries (not lead acid) seem to be good for 2 or 3 years at which point you may have to factor in the cost of a replacement.
I believe the hand throttles mentioned above will no longer be type approved for new pedelecs onroad from sometime next year but of course that won't bar existing bikes
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I believe the hand throttles mentioned above will no longer be type approved for new pedelecs onroad from sometime next year but of course that won't bar existing bikes
By definition a 'pedelec' only applies power when a sensor of some kind detects the cranks rotating. This is frequently combined with a hand throttle to vary the power provided (the usual crank rotation sensors are an on-off affair), but obviously won't allow the bike to start off on motor power alone, and the motor stops when the pedals stop turning. Pedelecs are an EU-wide definition.
Torque sensors detect how *hard* you're pedalling (so also qualify as 'pedelecs') and apply power in proportion to that. It feels more like a bicycle in a tailwind rather than a motorcycle, but these systems tend to be more expensive and sometimes need to be overriden to do the Right Thing when you change down to climb hills.
There are old British EAPC standards that bikes can comply to, which allow a hand throttle alone. Nobody build bikes to this spec, as the allowed power is lower (200W for an EAPC vs 250W for a pedelec solo bicycle) and you'd only be able to sell them in the UK, after type approval.
Leftpondians and other countries have a hodge-podge of regulations, many of which are extremely non-fussy about controls and power ratings. So there's a buoyant market in electric assist bikes and components that would be classed as non-road-legal motorcycles in the UK. Some Brits use this stuff legally off-road, or take the pragmatic view that you're unlikely to be prosecuted if you don't take the piss.
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Road.cc did a buyers guide the other week
http://road.cc/content/buyers-guide/162436-buyers-guide-electric-bikes
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Road.cc did a buyers guide the other week
http://road.cc/content/buyers-guide/162436-buyers-guide-electric-bikes
They make the erroneous assertion that torque sensors are only avaialable with mid-drive motors, which is untrue. Several rear-wheel hub motor systems sense torque at the hub.
Also, don't read the comments. :hand:
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Interesting about the licencing requirements though (assuming they're correct).
An e-bike is not just an electric scooter. To be road legal in the UK, it has to have pedals that can propel the bike, hence the designation "electric-assist". As long as the motor doesn't operate if you're travelling at more than 15.5mph (25km/h) and puts out no more than 250 watts, 14-year-olds and over can ride it without a licence, tax, insurance or helmet.
So basically you can't legally ride one in the UK if you're under 14. This makes sense, mostly (what about disabled kids, for instance?) but I don't suppose it's ever enforced. If anyone even knows about it.
In Europe there's another option: S-pedelecs. These higher-speed e-bikes are limited to 45km/h (28mph) and 500 watts. In countries where they are permitted, you need a moped licence, insurance and suitable helmet to ride them on the road, and they must have rear view mirrors. Buzzing long effortlessly at almost 30mph is exhilarating, but it's a thrill that's technically not permitted in the UK. S-pedelecs available in the UK are usually marketed as 'not for use on public roads’ or ‘for off-road use only’.
I didn't know about these. Basically, electric mopeds. But I wonder if they're subject to the same licence, insurance etc requirements as i.c. mopeds? Obviously those are often pretty near zero anyway, but not always!
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In Europe there's another option: S-pedelecs. These higher-speed e-bikes are limited to 45km/h (28mph) and 500 watts. In countries where they are permitted, you need a moped licence, insurance and suitable helmet to ride them on the road, and they must have rear view mirrors. Buzzing long effortlessly at almost 30mph is exhilarating, but it's a thrill that's technically not permitted in the UK. S-pedelecs available in the UK are usually marketed as 'not for use on public roads’ or ‘for off-road use only’.
I didn't know about these. Basically, electric mopeds. But I wonder if they're subject to the same licence, insurance etc requirements as i.c. mopeds? Obviously those are often pretty near zero anyway, but not always!
They would be in the UK. Except they wouldn't pass type-approval for a moped.
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I have opted for a fairly low power nano conversion on my spare brommie, on the basis it is a spare bike and an experiment.
Has got me thinking thought that maybe there ought to be a topic on electric bikes here on YACF. they are getting more popular and whatever the pure pedal power pedants may wish electric assisted bikes are going to become part of the cycling future. I can't find much helpful stuff out there on the internet as it stands now...
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I have opted for a fairly low power nano conversion on my spare brommie, on the basis it is a spare bike and an experiment.
Has got me thinking thought that maybe there ought to be a topic on electric bikes here on YACF.
I've wondered about that, but we only seem to have a handful of threads on the subject.
they are getting more popular and whatever the pure pedal power pedants may wish electric assisted bikes are going to become part of the cycling future. I can't find much helpful stuff out there on the internet as it stands now...
Sod the pedal power pedants. Even if you consider that it's not really 'cycling'[1] the "one less car" principle applies. It's all good.
[1] Which I don't have much time for, given that many electric assist users use it to supplement rather than replace pedal power.
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I think freewheeling would be the natural home for it...
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I happend to walk past this shop in Camden the other week.
https://www.electricbikesales.co.uk/
They sell some quality electric bikes like Haibike, Gazelle, KTM and even Bromptons. Some with Bosch crank drives (pretty much the best on the market).
Not cheap but worth every penny. They also sell pre-owned ones if available.
EC
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Yes, I had to choose between a nano DIY retrofit for my brommie and the Camden shops sparticle system, which is a bit more and has to be fitted by them. I went for the nano in the end because it is smaller and lighter. Mostly Mrs Tiger will use it, and if that means she can come out with me for a poodle that's a win.
The process of research has convinced me that these bikes are here to stay and the quality available now is way ahead of what was around a few years ago. Apart from utility/commuter riding where there is an obvious market, there are also some serious off road beasts that will get you to the top of the mountain so you can frolic down.
As the biking demographic ages but refuses to get old, I can see these machines really going well. As an urban transport option, they have to be a winner.
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In Europe there's another option: S-pedelecs. These higher-speed e-bikes are limited to 45km/h (28mph) and 500 watts. In countries where they are permitted, you need a moped licence, insurance and suitable helmet to ride them on the road, and they must have rear view mirrors. Buzzing long effortlessly at almost 30mph is exhilarating, but it's a thrill that's technically not permitted in the UK. S-pedelecs available in the UK are usually marketed as 'not for use on public roads’ or ‘for off-road use only’.
I didn't know about these. Basically, electric mopeds. But I wonder if they're subject to the same licence, insurance etc requirements as i.c. mopeds? Obviously those are often pretty near zero anyway, but not always!
They would be in the UK. Except they wouldn't pass type-approval for a moped.
I saw one yesterday morning. It had no numberplate. It was definitely a scooter-styled moped, with electric motor and no pedals. I do not know if it had come in on the back of someone's RV or was bought here, but it wasn't registered anywhere. If, as seems quite possible, it had been brought in as luggage from a country that doesn't require reg etc, is it then legal to use here? I imagine not.
Curiously, I also saw a larger electric scooter (with reg, foreign, didn't see what country) the same morning.
They are among us.
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I saw one yesterday morning. It had no numberplate. It was definitely a scooter-styled moped, with electric motor and no pedals.
Explained by UK seller http://eriderbikes.com/
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Mine is a 'normal' bike that cuts out at an illegal 18.5MPH. It lets me average 16mph on a hilly commute and gets me there relatively sweat-free. Horrible, sluggish thing to get going though.
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I didn't notice pedals on the one I saw but I could have taken them for footpegs. Which is also interesting; obviously you don't have to pedal with these to get the motor going. To my mind, that makes it an electric motorbike with pedal assist, albeit a slow one, rather than an electric pedal cycle with electric assist. I thought that legally the motor would only power the bike while you were pedalling, but no.
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I didn't notice pedals on the one I saw but I could have taken them for footpegs. Which is also interesting; obviously you don't have to pedal with these to get the motor going. To my mind, that makes it an electric motorbike with pedal assist,
That makes it a British Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle (https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules) (Assuming it meets the relevant power, speed and weight restrictions, has a plate with the power rating displayed and so on), for which it has to be a working pedal cycle, but there's no requirement that you actually use the pedals.
I thought that legally the motor would only power the bike while you were pedalling, but no.
That's only a requirement for the EU pedalec standard, which through harmonisation is also legal on British roads.
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I'd call that a pedal-assisted electric cycle. They should switch the names round!
More seriously, while the benefit to people with arthritic knees, gouty toes, metal hips or just plain loads and hills, is obvious when it comes to having a battery to provide extra power, I do wonder about the larger effect. If you don't have to do any pedalling, in what way is it different from a petrol-burning scooter? It's slower and quieter. I guess UK is probably a bit of an oddity in considering a moped to be more like a motorbike than a pedal bike, though. When I lived in Paris, mopeds didn't have registrations. Neither did the very popular microcars (like a four-wheeled moped) which meant they got parked in all sorts of ludicrous places. But that was in 1989. Nevertheless, I do feel that allowing electric power without pedalling does put a toe across the line.
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...the "one less car" principle applies. ...
Where it does apply, and someone's sold the car or not bought a car because they have leccypeds, yes. Or even where they've left the car at home. Or where they're using the volts as a means to stay on two (or three) wheels. (Has anyone made an electric unicycle yet?)
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More seriously, while the benefit to people with arthritic knees, gouty toes, metal hips or just plain loads and hills, is obvious when it comes to having a battery to provide extra power, I do wonder about the larger effect. If you don't have to do any pedalling, in what way is it different from a petrol-burning scooter? It's slower and quieter.
Slower and lighter. Noise doesn't hurt people, mv2 does.
Put it another way, how is a complaint EAPC or Pedalec different from a pedal cycle?
Slower than some, faster than most. Lighter than some, heavier than most[1]. Noisier than some, quieter than most. I don't think there's a lot in it, IMHO. Out riding with barakta, the main difference is which of us is faster on what gradient. She whizzes up hills (relatively speaking), but it's easy to exceed the limiter on a gentle downhill (as a fitter cyclist, I regularly do on the flat), at which point you're doing all the work yourself.
You could invoke the cycling purity argument, but I don't think that has any place in road legality. You might as well ban recumbents because they're 'cheating', or Chris Hoy because his legs have a power rating in line with a motorcycle.
I guess UK is probably a bit of an oddity in considering a moped to be more like a motorbike than a pedal bike, though. When I lived in Paris, mopeds didn't have registrations. Neither did the very popular microcars (like a four-wheeled moped) which meant they got parked in all sorts of ludicrous places. But that was in 1989. Nevertheless, I do feel that allowing electric power without pedalling does put a toe across the line.
Yes, I see electric assist cycles filling the void left by the illegalisation of practical mopeds, and as a practical alternative to Class 3 invalid carriages. They're cheap, easy to park, gets you where you're going in reasonable time and doesn't require undue physical effort even if there are bastard hills in the way. As a bonus, they're fairly safe and don't belch fumes.
Providing a power boost to Cyclists who need one is an edge case.
[1] Though as usual this is dwarfed by the variation in rider weight.
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Thinking of the one I saw yesterday, in shape and size (but not noise or pollution) it was very similar to the little Honda (think it was a Honda... so long ago) I had way back in the 80s (but not in Paris!) It's probably lighter, though not by much – a basic moped is pretty light – and if it's limited to "around 15mph" then it's slower. I hope it's also more reliable! But, just as mopeds give way to larger motorbikes, and just as we used to file the baffles out of those restricted mopeds, it will soon be faster. As AWL says, some already are.
But what I observe from watching people with electric assisted pedal bikes, ones which are really just bikes with motors in the front hub (or wherever), it's at low-speed that the extra power really makes a difference. You have something that (unlike the scooter-shaped wotsit) is bike-sized but has power on tap. This makes Silly Sustrans Gates a doddle. For instance, see this steep hill here. (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.457439,-2.5983717,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBN7FqySPTnH_-0kBW5ic-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) Could you, on a nuprong with a ten-year-old sitting on the rack, ride up that hill then do a u-turn onto that steep, narrow ramp up to the high pavement, just in front of the cream house with the green windows? I couldn't. I'm not even going to try. But every morning I used to see an unathletic-looking middle-aged bloke do just that. I just hope Sustrans don't realise this or they'll be thinking up new ways to slow us all down!
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But what I observe from watching people with electric assisted pedal bikes, ones which are really just bikes with motors in the front hub (or wherever), it's at low-speed that the extra power really makes a difference. You have something that (unlike the scooter-shaped wotsit) is bike-sized but has power on tap.
Yep, that's the main benefit after hill climbing.
This makes Silly Sustrans Gates a doddle. For instance, see this steep hill here. (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.457439,-2.5983717,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBN7FqySPTnH_-0kBW5ic-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) Could you, on a nuprong with a ten-year-old sitting on the rack, ride up that hill then do a u-turn onto that steep, narrow ramp up to the high pavement, just in front of the cream house with the green windows? I couldn't. I'm not even going to try. But every morning I used to see an unathletic-looking middle-aged bloke do just that. I just hope Sustrans don't realise this or they'll be thinking up new ways to slow us all down!
I probably couldn't, but I bet there are forumites who can. Similarly the Ackers Sisyphus Slalom Challenge (http://www.birminghamcyclist.com/video/the-ackers) would be a doddle on an electric bike with a shorter wheelbase.
I'm sure most of us on YACF could manage 250W for a short duration, the great thing about electrickery is that it brings that to those who can't or don't want to, and that it keeps going. Barakta will testify that having the acceleration to clear junctions in reasonable time makes cycling in traffic much less intimidating.
Perhaps the issue with electric assist is that it makes unathletic middle-aged cyclists with luggage perform manoeuvres that you'd only usually expect from athletic looking men on fast bikes. Which is only really a problem if the electric cyclist rides like a cock, and should become less unexpected as electric bikes become more common.
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I'm currently in Holland where cycles are all over the place and quite surprised at the number of EAPCs. They appear to be used by both young and old.
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Mine is one of these: http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?sirocco-cdl I got it cheap off eBay from a bloke in Brum. It has a throttle, but I use the pedal sensing set up. It seems to eat chains, so I've fitted a decent one to see if that helps. The Kendas were swapped for M+'s after I realised that Kenda's definition of puncture resistance was rather different to mine. The front fork is horrible and heavy, but ICBA to change it. It'll only ever be used for the commute.
I really do need to upgrade the bell, as it is rather quick on cyclepaths.
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But what I observe from watching people with electric assisted pedal bikes, ones which are really just bikes with motors in the front hub (or wherever), it's at low-speed that the extra power really makes a difference. You have something that (unlike the scooter-shaped wotsit) is bike-sized but has power on tap.
Yep, that's the main benefit after hill climbing.
This makes Silly Sustrans Gates a doddle. For instance, see this steep hill here. (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.457439,-2.5983717,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBN7FqySPTnH_-0kBW5ic-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) Could you, on a nuprong with a ten-year-old sitting on the rack, ride up that hill then do a u-turn onto that steep, narrow ramp up to the high pavement, just in front of the cream house with the green windows? I couldn't. I'm not even going to try. But every morning I used to see an unathletic-looking middle-aged bloke do just that. I just hope Sustrans don't realise this or they'll be thinking up new ways to slow us all down!
I probably couldn't, but I bet there are forumites who can. Similarly the Ackers Sisyphus Slalom Challenge (http://www.birminghamcyclist.com/video/the-ackers) would be a doddle on an electric bike with a shorter wheelbase.
I'm sure most of us on YACF could manage 250W for a short duration, the great thing about electrickery is that it brings that to those who can't or don't want to, and that it keeps going. Barakta will testify that having the acceleration to clear junctions in reasonable time makes cycling in traffic much less intimidating.
Perhaps the issue with electric assist is that it makes unathletic middle-aged cyclists with luggage perform manoeuvres that you'd only usually expect from athletic looking men on fast bikes. Which is only really a problem if the electric cyclist rides like a cock, and should become less unexpected as electric bikes become more common.
I don't think what the electro-cyclists do is the problem. The potential problem comes from popular response to their behaviour, which is then translated into Yet Sillier Sustrans Gates and crackdowns on bikes of any sort in pedstrian areas and so on, because Electric Menace.
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...the "one less car" principle applies. ...
Where it does apply, and someone's sold the car or not bought a car because they have leccypeds, yes. Or even where they've left the car at home. Or where they're using the volts as a means to stay on two (or three) wheels. (Has anyone made an electric unicycle yet?)
Yes. The problem was that they still fell over sideways to they bolted them together and called them a Segway.
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...the "one less car" principle applies. ...
Where it does apply, and someone's sold the car or not bought a car because they have leccypeds, yes. Or even where they've left the car at home. Or where they're using the volts as a means to stay on two (or three) wheels. (Has anyone made an electric unicycle yet?)
Yes. The problem was that they still fell over sideways to they bolted them together and called them a Segway.
I'm seeing increasing numbers of people commuting on these (http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/airwheel-q3-electric-dual-wheel-unicycle-a99th) on my travels.
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My kit arrived today. Tiny battery, compact motor no bigger than a SON dynamo and a load of wiring bits. Got to mod the bike a bit. This is going to be interesting.
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...the "one less car" principle applies. ...
Where it does apply, and someone's sold the car or not bought a car because they have leccypeds, yes. Or even where they've left the car at home. Or where they're using the volts as a means to stay on two (or three) wheels. (Has anyone made an electric unicycle yet?)
Yes. The problem was that they still fell over sideways to they bolted them together and called them a Segway.
I'm seeing increasing numbers of people commuting on these (http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/airwheel-q3-electric-dual-wheel-unicycle-a99th) on my travels.
That looks fun but barmy. :o
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Can we keep this thread quiet, let it slip out of sight a bit. you never know when the Sinclair clan might stumble in and have a New Idea!
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self build might be way to go. I have a spare bike that might work.
Anyone know of a London (west) stockist that might do this? Currently my mobility is limited.
There's one in Hampton Wick, a short way north of Kingston Bridge. Don't know if it's any good.
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I am building the bike up today.
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self build might be way to go. I have a spare bike that might work.
Anyone know of a London (west) stockist that might do this? Currently my mobility is limited.
There's one in Hampton Wick, a short way north of Kingston Bridge. Don't know if it's any good.
Yup. London Electric Bike Co (http://londonelectricbike.com/)
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Built it. Electric assist brommie. Indistinguishable from the original except for son type front hub. Silent in use, powers up to a nice cruising speed without pedalling and works just as well with pedals too. Can't believe how small the batt is though, looks like something off a drill. Going to take the dog out for a 6 miler this pm and we will see if it lasts.
Might need a bigger batt but the bigger ones are a lot more pricy.
Fitting instructions were superb.
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self build might be way to go. I have a spare bike that might work.
Anyone know of a London (west) stockist that might do this? Currently my mobility is limited.
There's one in Hampton Wick, a short way north of Kingston Bridge. Don't know if it's any good.
Just round the corner from Sigma Sport should you feel the need to look at upwrongs ;)
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Took it out. It is brill. Completely silent. Barely weighs more than the basic bike. Twist & go, picks up smartly and goes to a gentle cruising speed. Not that fast, but fast enough for getting about. Pedalling at same timereducesthe battery use which is useful. Popped me up the hill on the underpass with no pedal action at all.
I should point out I have a popped disc in back and no leg push at all right now so that is big plus. I can get to shops etc now easy.
I run Bosun the dog twice daily attached to me on the bike, on extension lead, for a good 5 miles each walk, sometimes more. Batt coped perfectly and dog suitably knackered at the end.
This bike is a revelation. Mrs Tiger gave it a go and found she could whizz up the street and back, pedalling but just like she had proper cycling legs. Opens up the possibility of actually going for rides together.
I am getting a spare batt to extend range, they are so light. The batts drop into the brommie bag at the front so completely invisible.
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^
That sounds like excellent news. Good that you are, once again, awheel.
Wishing you a speedy recovery.
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Also look into the difference between crank drive and hub drive bikes. I believe crank drive gives more torque and better hill climbing but can't be retrofitted into an existing frame.
True I think for Bosch and Panasonic and similar crank drives which require a bespoke BB housing for all the motor gubbins.
However, Bafang / 8Fun make BBS01 / BBS02 crank drives that CAN be retrofitted to existing frames with standard 68mm - 73mm BBs...
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I have now been running the converted brommie for a month. With 2 of the little batteries and using them as an assist rather than as a motor, it has a 2.5 hour range. That is a lot of ground, about 20k.
I am going to get a crank system, more powerful, for the old commuter hybrid and see how that goes.
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I've now saved up enough money to buy a decent conversion kit, but I'm procrastinating for fear of it making me lazy. I can be thinking about the details meanwhile anyway.......
Is there an electric bottom bracket that would allow a triple chainset with a fairly small Q factor?
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I've now saved up enough money to buy a decent conversion kit, but I'm procrastinating for fear of it making me lazy. I can be thinking about the details meanwhile anyway.......
Is there an electric bottom bracket that would allow a triple chainset with a fairly small Q factor?
I think not. If you run an electric BB motor then you lose the triple. If you want to keep the triple you buy a hub motor.
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Thanks. Not a surprise, really. I could look into a custom made (or terribly bodged) crankset, but I'm more likely take the easy option of a hub motor. I fancy a geared one rather than direct drive.
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Also I'd love one that can do a bit more than 15mph for, <cough>, private roads.
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I'm very interested in an electric hub for this setup.
Long-term it will be my shopping trolley on board a Motorhome. I don't mind riding the Brompton unassisted but a motor would be a welcome addition when towing the shopping back from the supermarket.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6ImDx3xB-YlwsJ6qxIHsDRxCtl9nTTBC27ZmulqegGY=w1538-h865-no)
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Also I'd love one that can do a bit more than 15mph for, <cough>, private roads.
Then you do want a hub motor kit - you can get them on Ebay up to 1000w which should give you some startling performance (but will eat battery power of course). From what I see these tend to be 26 wheels for MTB conversions. I see a chap round here zooming along at night on the roads on one, presumably to avoid detection. There is also a recumbent trike fitted with one in Ealing who can be seen doing the Uxbridge road at above the speed limit commuting to Canary Wharf - I imagine that is about the range limit. I hope he is still alive as I have not seen him for a year or so.
Theoretically these illegal motors can cost you your licence, but I think in practice the police are largely unaware of/not bovvered by them.
I am awaiting a 500w BB motor set from Whoosh, which can be pushed above 15mph by use of a thumber, on private roads, runs through the bikes gears for efficiency, and shouldn't eat too much power. But the old crankset will have to be binned. In this case its a hybrid with a hub gear setup (mrs Tigers old bike she barely rides) so seems ideal to me.
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The 15mph speed limit is about right for optimising battery life, so I reckon high power unrestricted motors are mostly for cheating at mountain biking or for taking the piss on shorter journeys.
I must confess to being interested to see what barakta's trike would be like (the motor's built for 500W[1]) with the 'off-road' firmware, but not to the point of obtaining the gubbins to re-flash it.
[1] This is still advantageous in its restricted form, as it means the thermal design[2] has plenty of headroom when climbing bastard hills.
[2] The drive electronics are integrated in the hub, so there's more heat in one place.
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I'm very interested in an electric hub for this setup.
Long-term it will be my shopping trolley on board a Motorhome. I don't mind riding the Brompton unassisted but a motor would be a welcome addition when towing the shopping back from the supermarket.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6ImDx3xB-YlwsJ6qxIHsDRxCtl9nTTBC27ZmulqegGY=w1538-h865-no)
What you want is the nano 250w conversion kit, and a 10Ah motor. No point in getting the faster Sparticle motor (more pricey too) as on the brommie 15 mph is about as fast as you want anyway. You want the 10Ah battery as you will draw a bit more power with a trolley and you need enough range to get from Motorhome to the shops and back. You can still pedal anyway - the motor just makes it miles easier to keep a speed up in top gear. Dead easy to do the conversion - no skill or knowledge needed.
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Even 17 or 18mph might be enough to satisfy me ...for use on my private country estate, of course.
Excuse me a moment, I need to go and discipline my butler...
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i'd like a lightweight (up to 3kg) solution with a good range and speed up to 25mph (i wouldn't feel safe at higher speeds without extra protection). might be wishful thinking now, but i'm happy to wait until technology improves.
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Even 17 or 18mph might be enough to satisfy me ...for use on my private country estate, of course.
Excuse me a moment, I need to go and discipline my butler...
My Woosh BB-driven commuter was easily tweaked* so the motor would only cut out at 40kmh. Seeing as that's unlikely to happen and I'm anticipating it propelling me along with my input at about ~20mph, I think that's adequate. I'm relying on plod's ignorance/apathy to get away with it.
*5 seconds to change a setting on the LCD controller.
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I see Nano Bikes are in Burbage ... a shortish ride away from me !!!!
Dangerous.
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Even 17 or 18mph might be enough to satisfy me ...for use on my private country estate, of course.
Excuse me a moment, I need to go and discipline my butler...
My Woosh BB-driven commuter was easily tweaked* so the motor would only cut out at 40kmh. Seeing as that's unlikely to happen and I'm anticipating it propelling me along with my input at about ~20mph, I think that's adequate. I'm relying on plod's ignorance/apathy to get away with it.
*5 seconds to change a setting on the LCD controller.
Is that the 500W Bob motor? That is the one I have in mind, as soo as they get stock back in.
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No, it's their standard 250w Scirocco CDL. A heavy beast (which I'm currently upgrading to weigh less), it has a controller that allows you to change the motor cut out speed very easily. It used to cut out at 18.5mph, but I've effectively altered that so it won't cut out till 40km/h. With my pedal power, I think that'll mean I can tootle along at 22-23mph on the flat. It'll use more battery though, but that shouldn't be an issue on my commute. I'm also upgrading the brakes to an Avid BB7 on the front.
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I'd be mostly interested in a motor to help with hills, so 15mph would do me nicely (though whether most setups could manage 15mph uphill with a touring load/loaded cargobike, I am not sure) ;)
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[Musings]
I wonder if these are a practical commuting alternative to a small car for the depths of winter? When it's icy/slushy/snowy* and it's blowing a north-wester and you live 15 miles from work, cycling isn't a practical proposition for the likes of me. But a slightly heavier, more stable electric bike with 45mm spiky tyres may just do the trick? In fact, it may be better than a car, given that traffic happens to other people when you're onna bike?
[/Musings]
*You know the stuff - hard to be sure whether it's ice or slush or snow or just grime and tramps' urine. :sick:
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My commute's an undulating 8 miles and I have bought some Marathon Winter Plusses to fit once the frosts arrive. The ride in takes about the same time as the drive in (at busier times it's quicker) and is much more pleasant. On my MTB I arrive quite sweaty. On the e-bike I'm fine. Now the nights are drawing in, and part of the route is on unlit cyclepaths, the Hope Vision One will come into it's own. I'm quite looking forward to it. My all-weather gear has already proved itself.
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[Musings]
I wonder if these are a practical commuting alternative to a small car for the depths of winter? When it's icy/slushy/snowy* and it's blowing a north-wester and you live 15 miles from work, cycling isn't a practical proposition for the likes of me. But a slightly heavier, more stable electric bike with 45mm spiky tyres may just do the trick? In fact, it may be better than a car, given that traffic happens to other people when you're onna bike?
[/Musings]
I think yes to some extent because, with electric assist, you should be able to wear completely waterproof cosy clothes without getting over-hot and sweaty.
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Well, to a point and depending on the bike. I still do put a fair bit of work on my ride and I'm not fresh as a daisy on arrival, but relatively speaking I'm not half as sweaty. I still use my breathable gear though, and need it.
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[Musings]
I wonder if these are a practical commuting alternative to a small car for the depths of winter? When it's icy/slushy/snowy* and it's blowing a north-wester and you live 15 miles from work, cycling isn't a practical proposition for the likes of me. But a slightly heavier, more stable electric bike with 45mm spiky tyres may just do the trick? In fact, it may be better than a car, given that traffic happens to other people when you're onna bike?
[/Musings]
In an ideal world this would be velomobile territory but they wouldn't be brilliant in traffic and they ain't easy to park.
*You know the stuff - hard to be sure whether it's ice or slush or snow or just grime and tramps' urine. :sick:
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I'd be mostly interested in a motor to help with hills, so 15mph would do me nicely (though whether most setups could manage 15mph uphill with a touring load/loaded cargobike, I am not sure) ;)
I've fitted the Sparticle kit onto our Helios, replacing the front wheel. Unladen, it does more than 15 mph on the flat. With 30 kg of shopping you don't have to pedal on the flat, but anything more than about 6% slope, you still need to pedal to keep moving. Although it's obviously much easier than before.
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Now that I am interested in electric bikes I visited a dealer on the Isle of Wight as we happen to be there. He specialises in MTB electrics. I tried one out, top of the range job. Quite portable, with the batt in. Entirely torque based response system, and it was a bit of an eye opener. Silent, light, and responsive, just like riding but very little effort. Costs £2300 though. The motor was built into the BB very neatly and batt likewise. He also had a road bike with batt in the down tube and rear hub motor almost invisible. Awesome kit, really.
Apparently about 60 miles range.
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Hmmm, range. I'm supposed to get 60-70 miles on a charge. However, when using maximum assistance on a lumpy commute, I think 30-35 is more like it. Even less now I've upped the cut out speed. I've yet to run the battery flat, but I'll do so one day just to check.
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Right, the Woosh has been tweaked. Thanks to Biggsy's generous donation of some strong magnets, the speedo now works again and I'm trundling along at 21-22 MPH on the flat without much effort. I've fitted better wheels with a cassette-hubbed rear and that means I can pump up the tyres to 60+ PSI. Lighter weight, better handling and lower rolling resistance a triple win for not much investment. On the old wheel rims, Marathon Plusses slipped on very easily - a worrying sign - and I had a blow out at 55 PSI. The BB7 is already better than the original, crap brake and will be needed.
The only mod-in-waiting is to fit better front suspension forks. The current ones are heavy BSO trash and are crying out to be replaced. If I can get my undulating, 8.1-mile commute to below 30 mins, I'll be happy.
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I have enjoyed my nano assist Brompton so much that I have just purchased a 500w bb kit with a 15 ah battery to convert Mrs tigers hybrid. The rough terrain was killing the brommie and some bigger wheels and more power will be handy. Building it up next week.
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I have enjoyed my nano assist Brompton so much that I have just purchased a 500w bb kit with a 15 ah battery to convert Mrs tigers hybrid. The rough terrain was killing the brommie and some bigger wheels and more power will be handy. Building it up next week.
The e+1 rule? :thumbsup:
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I am very close to pressing 'buy' on a Bafang 8fun motor for my ICE Sprint.
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I just pressed 'buy'... it's coming from China so I'll have a week or so to wait.
And, in the meantime, I need to sort out a bottom bracket removal tool but have no idea which one I need. Sigh.
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And, in the meantime, I need to sort out a bottom bracket removal tool but have no idea which one I need. Sigh.
Standard Shimano one, I think. I'm reasonably sure I had barakta's BB out to fail[1] to attempt to install the Falco crank rotation sensor, before mounting it backwards on the left side (where there's loads of room and much less oily stuff), and until recently[2] the only BB tool I've had is one like this:
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/cyclus-bottom-bracket-tool-shimano
[1] It just fouled the chainring bolts.
[2] New mountain bike has Hollowtech.
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That is helpful thanks. Do I use it with a normal spanner then or something?
James and I did this before when we changed the chainring so nice the Trice Q but he has the toolkit and it was 6 years ago so I don't remember much about it...
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That is helpful thanks. Do I use it with a normal spanner then or something?
Cranks off; BB tool fits over the spindle; big spanner; a bit of welly; a bit of googling to discover which side has a widdershins thread; a bit more welly in the right direction. Do the same on the other side and you're done.
Top tip: The advantage of a recumbent is that you can sit in the seat and apply huge amount of force by 'pedalling' the spanner to free a stuck BB. DAHIKT.
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I have just done this - you want the shimano BB removal tool and a crank puller. The BB nut on the Chain side is removed clockwise - and possibly very stiff. I had to take mine to the LBS and get them to use the long-arm spanner to get it out.
I have now got Mrs Tigers hybrid bike with a 500w BB Bafang motor and 15ah rack battery setup. Weighs a ton of course. But - just took it out for the dog exercise round Richmond Park and even limited to 'level 5 assist' (out of possible 9) it does 25mph which is the dogs maximum sprint. If I set the controller to 9 I expect it would be off to prison! Plus probably rip the back wheel off.
Goes uphill as fast as anything too.
Only drawback is its weight due to the battery being huge - I think I may regret that in time as its is more power than I probably want. But it does give a huge range.
Interesting too that it provides alternative power either from pedal assist or directly via a thumb throttle.
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Well, I call that a learning curve. the rack batt makes the bike basically unsafe. It acts like a huge lever at he back and all the force is concentrated through the weak mixte geometry, leading to the bike frame flexing like spaghetti and the bars wobbling uncontrollably. Hard to control and not rideable single handed. Back to the drawing board. Going to switch to my 29er frame which is stronger and exchange the batt for a bottle battery which being central and lower should not cause so much problems.
Shed now full of bikes in stages of stripdown and rebuild, and becoming LBS best customer.
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I'm now able to average 16.7MPH on my commute. It's 8.1 miles and not at all flat. If I cut back to 15MPH, I'm a lot less tired and sweaty on arrival. Taking the car takes me about 30 mins and is horrible and I have a 10-minute walk to/from the car, so the bike is a win-win for me. I still have the horrible front forks, but getting hold of some threaded 1 1/8" disc-compatible suspension forks ain't easy. The BB7 is a revelation after the crappy original front brake.
Woosh have a new bike out, the Karoo, which is almost everything I'd be looking for in an e-bike. The only fly in the ointment is that the top speed doesn't seem to be tweakable to anything illegal.
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I still have the horrible front forks, but getting hold of some threaded 1 1/8" disc-compatible suspension forks ain't easy.
It would be simpler to just accept having to replace the headset and stem as well, would it not? It might even work out cheaper overall, given the rarity value of forks with threaded steerers.
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... getting hold of some threaded 1 1/8" disc-compatible suspension forks ain't easy.
I think I have a disc compatible suspension fork going begging, which may well be 11/8 (depends if I have successfully given it away or not) - will check if you are still interested.
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Thanks. TBH I'd rather have rigid forks, but the crown on the frame is too large for them. I think.
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Update on my conversion, the initial hybrid mixte having proved a disaster. Crank motor now installed on a Halfords 29er with a bottle battery - Whoosh took back the rack battery and changed it FOC, very good service.
New setup is brill. Suspension forks absorb shock, and lower centre of gravity gives stable ride. Strong frame stays rigid and it rides like a regular bike - but fast and easy. Love it. The 500w motor has huge torque and it powers easily up hills.
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Admittedly with the wind behind me, I averaged 17 MPH this morning. I think it must've been the new thermal bib tights and the Foska skeleton jacket wot did it.
I'm quite happy with 250W. It allows me to do plenty of work if I want to, but to take the strain on hills. Even though it's technically illegal in its current guise, I can make it legal again in a matter of seconds.
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My Bafang 8Fun arrived yesterday from China (with a 165,84€ customs and VAT bill, oops) and will be fitted tomorrow probably.
The 12ah battery is very heavy so am reconsidering using the bottle bolts and trying to fit it on the rear triangle somewhere or behind the seat.
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I see CUBE eBikes are available for around £1500 with the Bosch (Bottom Bracket) motor.
That's putting them on my radar for a Motorhome shopping bike. Until now I'd always been looking at a 50cc Scooter for any Motorhome I bought, but an eBike, some Schwalbe "Big Apples" and my Travoy trailer would be ideal.
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The 12ah battery is very heavy so am reconsidering using the bottle bolts and trying to fit it on the rear triangle somewhere or behind the seat.
http://t-cycle.com/accessory-mounting-c-71/accessory-mounts-c-71_73/ice-battery-mount-p-208.html
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Very nice but $$$
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This would look good hanging on a wall but not sure about riding it. And as for cleaning the front wheel.
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/dec/05/five-things-we-love
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Very elegant and very very pointless.
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Very elegant and very very pointless.
And illegal to use on UK roads.
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The lady on the solo is riding a Giant e-bike, which she uses to ride with her husband who also rides sportives. She gets 80kms range out of it which quite impressed me since Limousin is not exactly flat and there isn't any recharging on the descents. I have seen them out together since this ride, going up the hills as if they weren't there. This seems to be a fairly common combination in macho french club cycling, sporty husband and wife on an e-bike. It's probably a more accessible form of cycling together than using a tandem.
(http://i.imgur.com/GinAjHq.jpg)
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I have seen them out together since this ride, going up the hills as if they weren't there. This seems to be a fairly common combination in macho french club cycling, sporty husband and wife on an e-bike. It's probably a more accessible form of cycling together than using a tandem.
Works for barakta and I :thumbsup:
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Posh grammar, Kim! ::-)
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My limited experience so far of electric bikes (three rides on my trike) is that I don't go much faster but I do arrive not very sweaty! This is a bonus.
My riding partner's comment is that the hills is where he notices the difference. I used to go backwards, now I merely drop back slowly...
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I have now been running my bafang 500w crank drive converted hybrid for a month or so. I am impressed with the performance and battery life. It is now my preferred means of whizzing round town and gets about 15 miles a day every day.
Being a bigger motor I doubt it would do a huge long ride, as it would drain the 15ah battery. But it goes for 2 hours easy.
I think a purpose built Ebike might be smoother, but I quite like the power of my illegal home brew.
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I think a purpose built Ebike might be smoother, but I quite like the power of my illegal home brew.
Noes! Tigerrr is turning into Jeremy Clarkson!
POWWWWWAAAAHHHHH!
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I am thinking about one of these,it looks like this: http://www.giant-lincoln.co.uk/en-gb/bikes/model/road.e.2/24987/90636/ The bike retails at £2300 with Tiagra groupset and a 400 watt battery.I have been a keen cyclist for the last decade or so,but have now developed a heart condition,which is controlled with medication,but I have to keep below 145 bmp fine on the flat,not so good on any steep hills.
So I'm thinking this could keep me sane.There's a more expensive model at £2750 and that's equipped with Ultegra and a 500 watt battery which presumably gives it a greater range.I have hoping to resume riding with my mates and it would be great to have a range of about 100km.
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I think you mean watt motor, not battery. Anything over 250 watts is technically illegal.
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I believe they are Watt-hour battery capacities.
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The brochure says "the Yamaha motor produces 80 nm of torque." On both bikes,with the more expensive bike having a larger range capacity presumably.I am more interested about what this means in the real world.Unfortunately the salesperson did not know, the bikes are not available until March anyway. :facepalm:
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I think you mean watt motor, not battery. Anything over 250 watts is technically illegal.
Mine is 250w, but is still illegal. The makers made it so easy to up the maximum speed limiter past the 15.5mph limit that I couldn't resist. It now cuts out at 25mph, but allows me to tootle along on the flat at 20mph with ease. Mind you, cars are legally limited to 70mph, and they have no limiter...
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I think you mean watt motor, not battery. Anything over 250 watts is technically illegal.
That is true but there are a number of machines on the market with larger capacity motors, including some really very nice road bike lookalikes with 400W motors in the frame. Virtually unrecognisable as bikes with very discreet motors. I believe the motors are in fat operated at 250w which makes them legal, but capable of higher torque. Or so the man in the shop told me! I also think you can reprogram me the motor controller to deliver the full wattage - however the resutlt is you reduce your range dramatically as the power draw on the battery is substantial. In theory my bike should do 50k easy but not with my motor.
It is true - it os bit Clarkson but also the most fantastic way to get back on the bike when you have a big health or fitness setback. Plus got to beat the car or motorbike options.
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The Falco motor in barakta's trike is physically identical to the 500W off-road model. The road version of the firmware limits the power and speed, but you still have all the torque available, and a thermal design that's rated for a continuous 500W. Perfectly legal, and makes good commercial sense for manufacturers. The downside is the weight.
(Yes, it can be re-flashed with the off-road firmware if you really want to, but if you were doing that you'd just have bought the off-road model.)
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Yesterday the Ebike conversion got its first trial against the vertiginous hills of the Costa blanca. 1in 4 is a section going down to the local beach, to be negotiated twice daily. Used to make steam come out of my ears on the lowest MTB gear.
Set the power to level 5, selected the low gear and set off. It was as if I had armstrongs legs, fully doped. Sailed up at a steady 10 mph without breaking a sweat. Then on up the whole of the escarpment, 500m vertical, and it just purred up it. Fantastic.
The extra power unit paid off. A win on any measure.
Locally I notice that everyone who isn't a racing snake now rides ebikes. Bike shops are full of them too. Much wider selection of models than in the uk. Have a feeling n+1 may occur while here.
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Locally I notice that everyone who isn't a racing snake now rides ebikes. Bike shops are full of them too. Much wider selection of models than in the uk. Have a feeling n+1 may occur while here.
Does that mean Bosun will have to hitch back to Blighty in the spring?
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First proper ride of the year today! :D
After 10000km my ebike transmission was skipping so much that it was unrideable, and the chainwheel looked very worn. I replaced the chain and reinstalled the original crankset, but the cassette was beyond saving too.
EM3ev (http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=common/home) in Hong Kong have a lot of interesting parts for the BBS01/2. I got a couple of spare chainwheels (they also have a blingy CNC version) a speed sensor extension cable, and a power cutout button because I had been running without brake sensors.
The motor and new parts went into my old Xtracycle-equipped load-hauler, Oli. He'd had a front hub motor in a previous incarnation, but that had always struggled a bit on the hills round here.
I'm recovering from a bad cold and a strained back , but this morning I went for a 10k shakedown ride, slow and easy, maximum assist all the way.
Through-the-gears assist + long wheelbase = a match made in heaven! :thumbsup:
This must be the most relaxing bike I have every ridden, and wonderfully stable on the icy road. I was ghost pedalling up the steepest hill, feeling the rear tyre slip if I tried to push any harder. Only 17 km/h average speed and 91 watt hours used, but who cares? ;D
The new cassette arrived for the 'fast' bike. 12-36t, so it now has a lower low than Oli - 26" v 32". I took a spin on that when the ice had cleared, and only got halfway up the bastard hill. ::-)
Update: Thursday morning. Out on the 'fast' bike again before breakfast. Worked hard enough to be Definitely Not Fun and got all the way up the hill this time. The 10k took just over 35 minutes on Oli. I don't have an exact time, but this time was at least 5 minutes slower. :(
I'll try again when I'm fitter. My fastest recorded unassisted time for the loop was under 30 minutes - 22 minutes in Shadowfax mode.
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Well, here are a year on - and the electric bike is gone. Stolen under my nose (well, behind my back in fact) in the park as I was chucking balls for the dog. Unbelievable, I think it was a bloke (in a trackie so maybe I should have been more wary), who walked past me and I even said 'gd evening'! He must have just walked up, and ridden off. Boy do I feel stupid - I was a few feet away and didn't see it.
Now I have to think about a replacement. I guess that is a silver lining...
It was a thing of wonder, that bike. The next will be even better!
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That's the spirit! :thumbsup:
What a fckr.
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Heads up - electric bikes are excluded from bike insurance on home and contents. Useful to know, but a bit shit.
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Are you aware of www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum ? There are some bikes in the classifieds on there. Specifically an Oxygen eMate MTB, one of which I have & it's very good.
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Heads up - electric bikes are excluded from bike insurance on home and contents. Useful to know, but a bit shit.
Balls. How crap is that.
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Came across this, a Rayvolt Cruzer.... a snip at a mere £3600.
https://www.costco.co.uk/Sports-Spas-Leisure/Bikes-Scooters-Accessories/Electric-Bikes/Rayvolt-Cruzer-V3-E-Bike-with-Lights-Rear-View-Mirrors-Leather-Bag-Set-Up-Assistance-And-First-Year-Inspection/p/293783?utm_campaign=FY19P11W4a&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Promo&utm_content=Banner-6&utm_term=rayvolt (https://www.costco.co.uk/Sports-Spas-Leisure/Bikes-Scooters-Accessories/Electric-Bikes/Rayvolt-Cruzer-V3-E-Bike-with-Lights-Rear-View-Mirrors-Leather-Bag-Set-Up-Assistance-And-First-Year-Inspection/p/293783?utm_campaign=FY19P11W4a&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Promo&utm_content=Banner-6&utm_term=rayvolt)
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Fugly, IMHO. It's the grown-up equivalent of one of those plastic ride-on police motorbikes for toddlers.
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Branching out - electric scooters!
All over the place right now. Predictably being castigated as a menace but I think this is the future of urban transport. Small, nippy, easy to use.
Currently technically illegal of course but pretty much unenforced.
I am sorely tempted to add one to my stable, currently a trek MTB e-bike, a brompton home conversion. If I can think of a reason why I need a nippy little scooter I shall have one - but unfortunately I can't come up with any credible excuse. There is a nice off road one at Aldi!
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And yet another thing that everyone else will moan about, and lump users of them along with cyclists, as objects to be dealt with/attacked/run off the road.
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Or you could view them as a new group of allies in the fight for streets that are friendly to less-than-car-sized wheeled transport.
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We have an electric bike shop in our town.
Yes, I know this should be in the 15th best thing about your place of living thread..l