Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: Billy Weir on 04 February, 2011, 01:31:40 pm

Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 04 February, 2011, 01:31:40 pm
This thread was split off from Arrivée est arrivé! (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6531.msg851273#msg851273) by request.

MV



One of the things that I read for the first time in Arrivee was that the committee has decided to impose a £10 registration fee for each event from 1 November 2011 onwards.

Was this intention communicated in a previous issue of Arrivee?  And if not, does anyone know why not?  As an organiser, I was surprised by this news, which strikes me as indicating the change wasn't communicated well.

Even now, I'm a bit in the dark as to what it means.  John's note under organiser news hints that it includes the first 20 brevet cards, but I'm not sure whether this refers printing (35p a card) or validation (20p a card).  If the former, then why is a £3 surcharge being placed on all events?  Or does this hint that printing costs are going up to 50p a card?
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mattc on 04 February, 2011, 01:34:24 pm
One of the things that I read for the first time in Arrivee was that the committee has decided to impose a £10 registration fee for each event from 1 November 2011 onwards.

Was this intention communicated in a previous issue of Arrivee?  And if not, does anyone know why not?  As an organiser, I was surprised by this news, which strikes me as indicating the change wasn't communicated well.

Ditto.

But Nov 11 is quite a long way off - plenty of time to let orgs know. (and November is a fairly quite time).

(I was thinking about mentioning this in the context of "do we want bigger events and/or less small ones?" - there is probably a thread already discussing this that would be appropriate. )
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: phil d on 04 February, 2011, 01:38:43 pm
I wasn't aware of this before either.  It perhaps explains why the 2011 Upper Thames hasn't appeared on the listings yet, though it has been ready for a while.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 04 February, 2011, 02:31:23 pm
Was this intention communicated in a previous issue of Arrivee?  

No

And if not, does anyone know why not?  

Because it was only decided at the last committee meeting. This was the first edition of Arrivee since the decision was made.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 04 February, 2011, 06:04:09 pm
And if not, does anyone know why not?  

Because it was only decided at the last committee meeting. This was the first edition of Arrivee since the decision was made.

Fait accompli

A question for any committee member if I may be so bold.  Was consideration given to consulting organisers before making the decision?
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 04 February, 2011, 06:43:24 pm

Fait accompli

A question for any committee member if I may be so bold.  Was consideration given to consulting organisers before making the decision?

No - do you think we should have done? Do you think this will be an unpopular decision?
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 04 February, 2011, 07:19:48 pm

Fait accompli

A question for any committee member if I may be so bold.  Was consideration given to consulting organisers before making the decision?

No - do you think we should have done? Do you think this will be an unpopular decision?

I can only speak for myself.  I think the committee should have but not for a snide reason.  I suspect if you had asked organisers beforehand, you might have found support for a bolder outcome, depending on what issue the committee was trying to address (economy of scale, cancellations, encouraging efforts to get at least 20 riders etc).

I think £10 is a level that is neither here nor there for me.  But then again, I dabble in organising events (unlike others who organise 10 or more rides, and so would have to stump up £100+ in advance, many months before getting any "benefit" from it).

As an aside, can I suggest a quick email to organisers about what this will mean in practice.  As mentioned earlier, I'm a bit confused about the reference to your first 20 cards being included.  From memory, printing costs are 35p each, so if someone orders 20 cards then there would appear to be a £3 surcharge.  Or does this suggest the AGM will be asked to increase this to 50p?  Or that validation will be included?  It was also unclear if this was a "one off" in the sense of once only or once annually.  Possibly me being dim.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: phil d on 04 February, 2011, 07:23:53 pm

Fait accompli

A question for any committee member if I may be so bold.  Was consideration given to consulting organisers before making the decision?

No - do you think we should have done? Do you think this will be an unpopular decision?

My answer to both would be "not really", though organisers with smaller fields than I get on Upper Thames may well feel differently.  But I would be interested to know the rationale for this.  And while I don't think it was necessary to ask organisers in advance, it would have been nice to have been told about it - there are now web-lists used for such notifications.  And I still don't know the procedure to get my event published.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Martin on 04 February, 2011, 08:43:18 pm
I'm organising my first 200 in a couple of months; an X event with a £3 entry fee (any surplus from which will probably go on bananas and fruit drinks) because it starts in the middle of nowhere (in AUK event terms) and is in the middle of 300tide I'm not expecting a big field; even in PBP year

I just hope I get over 20 entries next year or I'll be even more out of pocket. Can I ask what the rationale behind this fee is? either events are 100% financially the responsibility or the organiser or not

Like Billy I'm not going to sweat it; just wonder what it's all about
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: BlackSheep on 04 February, 2011, 08:53:49 pm
Because it was only decided at the last committee meeting. This was the first edition of Arrivee since the decision was made.

AUK does have it's own web-site and forum, was/has anything been posted there? There are enough commitee members active on this forum, so what gives ? At the AGM, it was mentioned that cash within the company (AUK) is at a healthy level. So raising monies isn't an issue, in fact the senior citizens voted not to have free membership subscription, so a loss leader was lost there.

So what are the benefits to the members, or is it just some of them - the water appears to be very muddy on this issue (as has been eluded to).
Are there any tax incentives - my cat is thinking of joining AUK, it'll comfortably keep him in Whiskas.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: MSeries on 04 February, 2011, 09:23:26 pm
I read the registration feel for organisers in the context of some events have fewer than 10 riders and publicity. I assumed the intent is to try to make organisers do more to promote their event to recover their registration fee at least.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: MSeries on 04 February, 2011, 10:21:02 pm

As is whilst I suspect most organisers will not object to the change its presentation has raised more issues then it solves. For example, will there be a similar charge for listing Perms, and if not, why not? Some consultation/discussion at the AGM would have helped resolve these issues first time round.
The cost of Perm cards includes the validation fee and cards may only be bought in sets of 10.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: itinerant on 04 February, 2011, 10:59:23 pm
I'm organising my first 200 in a couple of months; an X event with a £3 entry fee (any surplus from which will probably go on bananas and fruit drinks) because it starts in the middle of nowhere (in AUK event terms) and is in the middle of 300tide I'm not expecting a big field; even in PBP year

I just hope I get over 20 entries next year or I'll be even more out of pocket. Can I ask what the rationale behind this fee is? either events are 100% financially the responsibility or the organiser or not


Zoom - what's your event?  I'll try to arrange my schedule to support your event if I can.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Ian H on 04 February, 2011, 11:40:37 pm
I read the registration feel for organisers in the context of some events have fewer than 10 riders and publicity. I assumed the intent is to try to make organisers do more to promote their event to recover their registration fee at least.

The November minutes, pre-agm, are on the AUK website.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mattc on 04 February, 2011, 11:54:45 pm
It could be argued the decision does not support organisers of new events or those in the less populated areas of the country but let's face it the sums involved are trivial and one assumes (tbc please!) not paid upfront as orgs pay fees on validation not on listing.

Isn't there something vague in the Orgs Docs about  AUK covering one's arse if an event bombs financially?


This doesn't sound like it has any dire implications, but I felt the minutes didn't really explain the thinking behind this, so it would be nice to hear the background.
(but as I said, we have 9 months to get used to this, and I presume a couple of commitee meetings in that time).
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: BlackSheep on 05 February, 2011, 08:36:25 am
So the change effectively moves Calendar events more in line with Perms. I didn't know appreciate the minimum card order thing for perm's, though it makes perfect sense in hindsight. A 'Big Up' to Perm Orgs, especially those who have a stable of routes listed.

Kind of yes - then most deffinately kind of no.

All the perms cards I've been issued with by organisers have been organiser's generic cards.

So it's not a problem for perms orgs to stockpile cards - in fact it makes sense.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 05 February, 2011, 08:47:00 am
Quote
one assumes (tbc please!) not paid upfront as orgs pay fees on validation not on listing.

You have to pay this charge to register your event in the calendar (i.e. have it published).  So, upfront.  el Supremo and the Blacksheeps are going to have to speak to their bank managers :P
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 05 February, 2011, 10:05:55 am
I like the move to a 'Calendaring fee' - though I think the apparent £3 price hike needs to be explained or rethought - maybe make it first 25 cards free. 
I would imagine the 'economies of scale' mentioned earlier, as applied to the Brevet Card production process, would explain it even if nothing else.  And there used to be a minimum order of 20 on event cards anyway, but Pam never enforced it (probably because she found that Orgs simply wouldn't pay up).

Because it was only decided at the last committee meeting. This was the first edition of Arrivee since the decision was made.
AUK does have it's own web-site and forum, was/has anything been posted there? There are enough commitee members active on this forum, so what gives ?

Seems to me that Arrivee, or the Handbook, or the AGM, is the correct place to announce something like this - and not the online community which would still (yes even in C21) lay AUK open to accusations of unequal access.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: phil d on 05 February, 2011, 10:15:59 am

Seems to me that Arrivee, or the Handbook, or the AGM, is the correct place to announce something like this - and not the online community which would still (yes even in C21) lay AUK open to accusations of unequal access.

I agree, but communication to the organisers would seem like a basic courtesy - there is a channel for this.  My event on the first Saturday of November is the first affected, but I've heard zilch.  But had been wondering why my event is not yet published.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: BlackSheep on 05 February, 2011, 12:28:52 pm
Quote from: Billy link=topic=6531.msg849142#msg849142 datei =1296895620
You have to pay this charge to register your event in the calendar (i.e. have it published).  So, upfront.  el Supremo and the Blacksheeps are going to have to speak to their bank managers :P

Possibly, or I use the difference between the entry fee and the event cost to pay for it.

I must brush-up on my welcoming greeting at the end of today's audax, prob goes long lines of :- Sorry chaps, the £2 you're got off your bill at the final control today, and the all-day free parking might be your last.

Does anyone know where the events co-ordinator is today? It'll be good to have a talk with him, he's probably out riding his tandem

Life's strange isn't it, I've always thought it would be a good idea to make healthy pastimes easy, affordable to all. That one seems to be going-down in flames quite nicely. And even more so, I changed my signiture from an adapted line from Appocalypse Now - to one from Contact.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: αdαmsκι on 05 February, 2011, 07:03:17 pm
I'm organising my first 200 in a couple of months; an X event with a £3 entry fee (any surplus from which will probably go on bananas and fruit drinks) because it starts in the middle of nowhere (in AUK event terms) and is in the middle of 300tide I'm not expecting a big field; even in PBP year

I just hope I get over 20 entries next year or I'll be even more out of pocket. Can I ask what the rationale behind this fee is? either events are 100% financially the responsibility or the organiser or not

Zoom - what's your event?  I'll try to arrange my schedule to support your event if I can.

It's the Double Dutch. Details are on the yacf thread (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=42960.0) & the AUK calendar (http://www.aukweb.net/cal/calsolo.php?Ride=11-555).
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Bairn Again on 05 February, 2011, 07:14:23 pm
Id be interested in knowing what the change is seeking to achieve.  It appears to be an attempt to whittle out events which have only a tiny number of entrants, which is fine I suppose if theres a minimum amount of effort involved in setting up an event.  Howeever it makes organisng any event that has less than 20 entrants instantly more expensive - right? 

One casualty of this change could be the short event thats tagged onto a longer one ie same day, same start location. 
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mikewigley on 06 February, 2011, 10:53:24 am
> It appears to be an attempt to whittle out events which have only a tiny number of entrants

(At the danger of diverting this topic beyond the  subject line) ....

I think that this is indeed the intention.  To be fair to John Hamilton, this is something the committee discussed at the meeting before he became Events Secretary, so he's only the messenger.  I do agree that the message in Arrivee seems to have raised more questions than answers, but I think it's intended as an early warning of intent and more details are to follow.

It's not my area of responsibility on Committee but I'll try to give you some response to a topic that I had expected would stir up some interest - and I've not been disappointed.

I think the intention is to draw attention to the amount of work disproportionally created by putting on small-interest events.  This will include: scrutinising the event for inclusion on the Calendar, production and mailing of brevet cards, and chasing up organisers for the results.

However, somewhing I wasn't aware of when we discussed this is just how many events we have with low numbers (with Arrivee seemingly defining low numbers as "below 20").  Something like a sixth of all events would be penalised by this ruling, which is something I'm not at all comfortable with - and I doubt that my 400 and 600 would be on the Calendar under such a ruling.  I actually like riding these smaller events with their imtimate atmosphere.

On the other hand, we have in recent years encouraged the growth of one-person events through Perms, and particularly DIY Perms, so there's definitely a move to more, smaller event.

I fear that this move might stiffle the development of new events and new Organisers, and restrict those who put on several events on the same day - even though Don Black gets about 30 riders, these are spread over 3 events, so Don is going to have to think twice about paying £30 up-front to register his events, and he'll be wondering what to do with his unused brevet cards.

It's also going to be a bigger problem in the Audaxing deserts of Mid Wales and the more extreme parts of Scotland.

This is something I want to discuss further with Committee at our next meeting later in the month, so your feedback on YACF is very timely and very welcome (by me at least).

 - Is AUK committee correct in trying to outlaw the small events? 

 - is this the best way to encourage Organisers to grow their events?  If not, what is?

 - Should our team of volunteers who support the calendar events just get on with it, or should we seek to adjust our processes to cope with events as they really are, rather than as we might wish them to be?  What if this means we need more volunteers ... ?

 - Should we encourage the development of Audax in certain areas, possibly at the expense of larger events elsewhere?

 - If you were to lose these smaller events, are you likely to ride bigger events elsewhere, or

 - would you just ride more Perms?

 - should we have some "official" way of organising Group Perms so that you can be notified and invited to join in with others on a Perm, as a replacement to these small Calendar events?  (Remember, not everyone is on YACF)



So, more questions than answers.  I'm just the Membership Secretary, and possibly speaking out of turn, but I can see that without events I might have trouble hanging on to the members (is it possible that might be taken that the wrong way), so I'm keen to explore this further.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Hot Flatus on 06 February, 2011, 11:04:55 am
Can't quite see how a push for more cyclists to take up Audax squares with a deliberate move to reduce the number of events available to riders. Factor into this the increasing cost of transport to and from events, if there are no local ones left. Surely a look at revising the way the more stressed areas of AUK admin operate, with the possible request for more volunteers to spread the workload would be preferable to cutting rides.

Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mmmmartin on 06 February, 2011, 11:29:40 am
should we have some "official" way of organising Group Perms so that you can be notified and invited to join in with others on a Perm, as a replacement to these small Calendar events?  
Maybe Group Perms are a way forward - in fact there may be a group riding of the Midhurst 1,000k Perm next year so this is a topic I'm interested in.
I can see where the committee is coming from, but a big event a long way off is no substitute for a small event that is local. At the risk of putting the cat among the pigeons, could you not simply increase the charge for validation of Brevets so that these small events are subsidised by the larger ones? The cost of transport to/from events is what matters now, not a few pence on the entry fee. For what it's worth, I would rather see these smaller events encouraged, not discouraged. And I speak as someone who is recovering from a hilly, windy, wet 100k in early February that attracted 36 entries and 30 starters.
Or how about reducing the cost of brevet cards by - for small events - making them on normal paper instead of the posh pretty colour-inked cards we now get. I admit this would not lessen by one jot the work that goes into an event - which is what the initiative is trying to do - but it would cut the cost.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: MSeries on 06 February, 2011, 12:00:00 pm
martinbrice sums up things nicely for me. Cost of travelling, that is time and expense, is probably the most significant factor in deciding whether I do a certain event or not. One of the best events I did in 2010 was The Lanchester 400. Four entrants, all finished, 4 points and 6.75AAA points for each of us, not an easy ride, BUT a superb route, hilly in daylight, flat and easy navigation in the night. Midday start, ridable from a mainline station, no overnight accommodation required. This event should be developed and grown, not canned because it's not popular. The Lanchester 400 was in it's first year in 2010 so I think that's one reason it attracted such a small field, another though I think is because it's too hilly for some riders.

Perhaps some of the other small events would be larger if their start times and locations made them easier for more people to get to.  X rated events starting in car parks at 0600 or any event starting at 0800 on a Sunday are unlikely to attract me unless they are close to home.

The cost of listing an event will either cause the organiser of a small event to make changes to attract more riders to recover more of his outlay or it'll cause him to can the event as not being worth it. The latter will be a shame and simply mean fewer events get ridden IMO. Perhaps, like martinbrice says, larger events can be used to subsidise the samller ones, this then would require a central admin rather than org by org one, UNLESS the same org is able to balance his books by also offering a popular event.

To answer some of MemSecs questions.

No, I don't think AUK Committee (AUK-C) is right in trying to outlaw small events , though I don't think that's their intention here. I don't think this is the way to encourage organisers to grown their events, I think it'll lead to small events being canned. What is the best way ? IMO, have fewer clashes on the calendar. Take May 7th 2011, there are four events that I would like to do, all reasonably local or doable with the kind assistence from friends. We should seek to adjust the process. I have ideas. We should encourage development of events in 'audax deserts' even if this is at the expense of larger events. I am unlikely to travel further to ride larger events if the local smaller events ceased to exist. I'd probably just ride fewer audaxes. We should have some sort of semi official group perms though what would make them different to a car park start X rated calendar event I don't know.

Smaller events would be larger if they started at times and places that more people could actually get to easily and by this I mean those people who do not have personal motor transport or provide free or very low cost sleeping beforehand and are rideable from a station that has a decent service.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 06 February, 2011, 12:10:10 pm
Something like a sixth of all events would be penalised by this ruling, which is something I'm not at all comfortable with - and I doubt that my 400 and 600 would be on the Calendar under such a ruling. 

But (supposing this measure had been introduced 12 months earlier) all you have to do is raise your entry fees.  10 entrants paying £6 instead of £5 would pay for this upfront fee.  If people think small local events are so wonderful then presumably they will pay the extra £ rather than travel - and it's still a fleabite compared with the other costs of spending a long day out on your bike.

It's the deeply-ingrained 'subsistence-level' culture within AUK (especially the Organisers) which causes all these problems - allow yourself a bit more headroom, and really an extra £3 outlay is not even worth pushing the "Oi!!" button to complain.

For next year, everyone now has prior warning (via Arrivee) before the events have been calendared, so they can adjust their entry fees if they see fit.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Hot Flatus on 06 February, 2011, 12:14:36 pm
Putting up the entrance fees ( with which I have absolutely no problem) still does not seem to address the issue which, according to MemSec, has brought this decision about.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: PloddinPedro on 06 February, 2011, 01:03:58 pm
This is something I want to discuss further with Committee at our next meeting later in the month, so your feedback on YACF is very timely and very welcome (by me at least).

I wonder if this issue merits a separate topic heading, perhaps to attract more responses?

Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 06 February, 2011, 01:14:58 pm
OK, but the 'subsistence' ethos is strong within committee too (except when it comes to committee meetings but I won't climb on that particular hobby horse just now) - and certain obvious financial tweaks (such as raising validation fees by 10p shock horror) are really difficult to implement because of timing issues surrounding the AGM and the future Calendar (** example below).

So you have a group of people who start out as willing volunteers and activists, and really, really, want to stay that way, no question about that - but bogged down in a bureaucratic mush none of which is remotely self-financing, it's easy to lose heart.  And enlisting more and more willing helpers to spread the load doesn't seem to help, it just multiplies the bureaucracy instead. (There's probably a name for this syndrome).  
IMO, AUK needs to free itself from this need to count every penny and attend to every microscopic detail.  If there's a set of events out there which are known to attract very small entries, well instead of:
"How many brevet cards do you need?"
"Er, not sure, I'll let you know in a day or 2"
"Six"
"No, Seven"
"Seven cards printed and in the post"
"Its gone up to 10 now".

It's just:
20 cards, print, bosh, in the post.

That has to be better, surely?


** getting a price rise through -
Suppose at the end of last year 2010, after their annual meeting, ACP announced an increase in their validation fee - say from 1 euro to 1.50, in time for PBP qualifying year.  (It's happened before)
What can AUK do?  AUK's validation fees (including the element that is passed on to ACP) are ratified at each AGM - the next AGM isn't until November 2011, by which time the majority of the Calendar for 2012 is already in place.  Organisers won't want to raise entry fees that they've already set and published - so the date for the increase is deferred by a year, to Nov 2012, to allow for this.
So there's a 2-year lag before AUK can recover the extra costs, that would amount to an expenditure of around 1000 euro per year.   Now that isn't really very much in the big scheme of things, except when the default position is one of counting every penny,

[edit] +1 for a new topic  :thumbsup:
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: daimountaingoat on 06 February, 2011, 03:34:23 pm
With regards to there being a registration fee to be introduced in Novenber 2011 i personally thinks its ok for people who organise events that attract over 20 entrants but it tends to penalise the event organisers who only attract less than 20 or some even less than 10. I am an organiser of an event run in south wales and the general census is that the events over here in Wales seem to attract less riders than over in England. I have done all i can by trying to attract more entrants like keeping entry fees low and changing days from sundays to saturdays etc. Surely introducing this registration fee is going to end up with less events on the auk calender. I for one am annoyed that AUK is penalising the smaller events.  :demon:
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: phil d on 06 February, 2011, 05:45:24 pm
Speaking as an organiser of a popular, well -attended event (I get over 100 entries most years), I would be supportive of some form of scheme that could use the financial flexibility events like mine have to assist those at the other end of the scale.  I'm not sure how best to do it but the current proposal seems highly regressive - it's insignificant to me, but clearly would have a big effect on the events Mr Nesbitt and daimountaingoat refer to above.

And I am also of the view that small events should not be discouraged.

Francis's comments explain clearly why small events are a problem for Pam producing the cards.  Is any other element of the process so affected by small numbers?  Validation and recording probably don't experience a similar effect, as they have fixed post-event numbers.

Perhaps an answer would be to increase the cost of the cards, but to make Pam's job less complicated issue a minimum quantity of 20 (or whatever number makes good sense).  Small events (less than 20, if that's the minimum set) pay a card fee per finisher, with those who request more than 20 paying for the number ordered as at present.  But it's still not ideal.  Nowhere near.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Martin on 06 February, 2011, 06:52:46 pm
Speaking as an organiser of a popular, well -attended event (I get over 100 entries most years), I would be supportive of some form of scheme that could use the financial flexibility events like mine have to assist those at the other end of the scale.

does the existing validation system not do that anyway? you pay 20p per rider validation (£20 say) a 4 rider event pays 80p (and I suspect that the 35p card printing fee also incorporates a fee that goes to AUK; even if it does it's ridiculously cheap for such a good service)

AUK's cost to provide the validation / web hosting etc for both events is probably almost identical; you the organiser have done the extra sterling work associated with a bigger field. Unless there are other costs to AUK with running a bigger event that I've overlooked...
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: JohnHamilton on 07 February, 2011, 11:05:21 am
So you have a group of people who start out as willing volunteers and activists, and really, really, want to stay that way, no question about that - but bogged down in a bureaucratic mush none of which is remotely self-financing, it's easy to lose heart.  And enlisting more and more willing helpers to spread the load doesn't seem to help, it just multiplies the bureaucracy instead. (There's probably a name for this syndrome).  

Administratium
Quote
Investigators at a major research institution have discovered the heaviest element known to science. This startling new discovery has been tentatively named Administratium (chemical element [Ad]).

This new element has no protons or electrons, thus having an atomic number of 0. It does, however, have 1 neutron, 125 assistant neutrons, 75 vice neutrons and 111 assistant vice neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312. These 312 particles are held together by a force called morons, which are surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles called peons.

Since it has no electrons, Administratium is inert. However, it can be detected as it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact. According to the discoverers, a minute amount of Administratium causes one reaction to take over four days to complete when it would normally take less than a second.

Administratium has a normal half-life of approximately three years; it does not decay but instead undergoes a reorganization in which a portion of the assistant neutrons, vice neutrons and assistant vice neutrons exchange places.

In fact, an Administratium sample's mass will actually increase over time, since with each reorganization some of the morons inevitably become neutrons, forming new isotopes. This characteristic of moron promotion leads some scientists to speculate that Administratium is spontaneously formed whenever morons reach a certain quantity in concentration. This hypothetical quantity is referred to as the "Critical Morass." You will know it when you see it.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mattc on 07 February, 2011, 11:09:33 am
It is probably a fear of the toxic Administratium that creates clubs/societies where 5% of the members do 90% of the work.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 07 February, 2011, 11:17:39 am
Quote
Back Off, Paris!

Yeah that was just plucking a 'f'rinstance' out of the air - not really intending to get at ACP at all!  
To be honest, if ACP just did away with the whole validation fee thing, as a way of financing their operation (ie PBP), and just came across with an appeal to AUK and other similar organisations, for a 'donation' to help finance PBP - they'd probably be offered a lot more than they currently get!

Thankyou UNDulates - we live and learn.
I suppose I was thinking of Parkinson's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law) really.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 07 February, 2011, 12:37:30 pm
As I don't know why the committee made the decision, I can't say whether it is reasonable or not.

I have no fundamental objection to a minimum brevet card order and can see some sense in it on adminstrative grounds.  Although I would have preferred this to be done at the point when the cards are ordered rather than at the point of registration.

If it reflects a policy about desirable size of events, then I am much less comfortable as it seems to be borne of prejudice.  Did the decision makers, for example, look beyond the statistics to the motivation of organisers who put on small events?  Personally I draw a distinction between small events because of location or distance or time of year, as opposed to those where the organiser wants him and his chums to be the only riders (or her and her chums, of course!).

I guess what I'm saying is that the registration fee may be too blunt a tool.  It might have been better for the event co-ordinators to be given freedom to exercise judgement about whether to publish an event - there is nothing that says every event submitted for publication has to be.  This might be facilitated by requiring the organiser to fill in a summary of how many entrants they are planning for and the reason for putting on the event.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: JohnHamilton on 07 February, 2011, 12:50:56 pm
With my Events Sec hat on. Excuse me if I don't cover everything that's been said on (and off) the topic whilst I've been off riding my bike.

I'll leave the question of whether appropriate constitutional process has been followed to those who know far more than I do about how AUK is run. Although there seems to be enough self professed experts on that subject here.

The decision was made by the Board at the last Board meeting immediately before the AGM. I was present as an observer (but not an elected official). Although I would have supported the idea.

AIUI, there is not some sort of crusade against small events. But it is important to recognise that there is an amount of work involved for AUK in calendaring any event, regardless of size. This work may be measured primarily in volunteer time rather than cold hard cash but it's still there. So an event with a very small number of finishers represents proportionally more effort in relation to the money received for it in terms of brevet card & validation fees.

The merits of payment in arrears vs in advance was considered, and "in advance" decided upon as it would have the effect of making organisers think before putting their event on the calendar. This certainly isn't an option that makes the lives of the Events Team easier as once I'd been elected at the AGM of course I got stuck with the job of implementing that decision.

The timing of the deadlines for the publication of Arrivee didn't really allow me to say anything more than the simple notification of the decision as at the time the Events Team was still working out how to implement it. That did have the unavoidable consequence that organisers such as phild who already had their post Nov-11 events ready would be slightly delayed in their publication (gold star to phil though - I think yours was about the only event in that position).

Practical details - these will be emailed to organisers in the next newsletter, and the new process will be trialled before the next Arrivee deadline with orgs of Nov-Feb events. The intention is that the Event Planner will be updated to include the necessary form, and online payment options (once Pete has finished the new website).

Looking at the event numbers, it may be that the bar hasn't been set in the best place. I've analysed last years results and just over 40% of events have less than 20 finishers (obviously we know nothing about number of entries). Personally I find that a very depressing statistic.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mattc on 07 February, 2011, 12:58:43 pm
I've analysed last years results and just over 40% of events have less than 20 finishers (obviously we know nothing about number of entries). Personally I find that a very depressing statistic.
It would be interesting to know the stats for the number of cards purchased - clearly this isn't the same as entries, but it should give some idea.

(I sort-of-feel that if half my field DNSes - and a couple DNF -  that isn't necessarily an unsuccesful event. I had something similar June-before-last when it rained for about 10 hours of the night before.)
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Martin on 07 February, 2011, 01:08:08 pm
while on the subject of Brevet cards; what is the official line on re-using them? I recycle unused ones the next year by sticking new innards for the next event; I bin any DNF / incomplete ones (which I get many of; a lot of riders are just having a day out and don't particularly want it validated although I do try to encourage them to do so as it's more riders in the results and pennies for AUK). But everyone ends up with a paid for official AUK card.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: vorsprung on 07 February, 2011, 01:19:32 pm
I only do one event, a 400

Due to the place it starts, the parking is limited.  Also it is a 400 so the "interest" is limited.  I have capped the entries to 40-ish.  Last time there were approx 35 entries and 23 finishers
I would run the event if there were 10 or more entries

Having a change to the arrangements for an upfront fee would not alter my views on running the event
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: BlackSheep on 07 February, 2011, 01:24:43 pm
while on the subject of Brevet cards; what is the official line on re-using them? I recycle unused ones the next year by sticking new innards for the next event; I bin any DNF / incomplete ones (which I get many of; a lot of riders are just having a day out and don't particularly want it validated although I do try to encourage them to do so as it's more riders in the results and pennies for AUK). But everyone ends up with a paid for official AUK card.

Good point Zoom, like you I bin the DNFs and incompletes.

I was encouraged by an AUK comittee member to re-cycle any DNSs by sticking-in a photo-copy of a suitable event.AUK have already been paid for the card, and in effect would be getting an extra validation.

I always get late entries, and if I've not enough cards, this is what the last of the late ones usually get.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: JohnHamilton on 07 February, 2011, 01:27:14 pm
I've analysed last years results and just over 40% of events have less than 20 finishers (obviously we know nothing about number of entries). Personally I find that a very depressing statistic.
It would be interesting to know the stats for the number of cards purchased - clearly this isn't the same as entries, but it should give some idea.

(I sort-of-feel that if half my field DNSes - and a couple DNF -  that isn't necessarily an unsuccesful event. I had something similar June-before-last when it rained for about 10 hours of the night before.)

True. In my experience over the years I average 10% for DNS/DNF, with the occasional event with a significantly higher incidence. Adjusting the figures by that amount doesn't make any significant difference. It's still around 40% with 20 or less.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: JohnHamilton on 07 February, 2011, 01:31:30 pm
I guess what I'm saying is that the registration fee may be too blunt a tool.  It might have been better for the event co-ordinators to be given freedom to exercise judgement about whether to publish an event - there is nothing that says every event submitted for publication has to be.  This might be facilitated by requiring the organiser to fill in a summary of how many entrants they are planning for and the reason for putting on the event.

Far too subjective, and would give rise to endless arguments.
Title: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: JohnHamilton on 07 February, 2011, 01:41:13 pm
while on the subject of Brevet cards; what is the official line on re-using them? I recycle unused ones the next year by sticking new innards for the next event; I bin any DNF / incomplete ones (which I get many of; a lot of riders are just having a day out and don't particularly want it validated although I do try to encourage them to do so as it's more riders in the results and pennies for AUK). But everyone ends up with a paid for official AUK card.

Good point Zoom, like you I bin the DNFs and incompletes.

I was encouraged by an AUK comittee member to re-cycle any DNSs by sticking-in a photo-copy of a suitable event.AUK have already been paid for the card, and in effect would be getting an extra validation.

I always get late entries, and if I've not enough cards, this is what the last of the late ones usually get.

I think that's a fair enough approach, and quite common (I do it myself if I need more for EOLs). As you say, you paid for the card originally and you pay for the validation when it's used. So you're not depriving AUK of anything by doing that.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Bairn Again on 07 February, 2011, 08:55:41 pm
In response to the points that MemSec has raised, my tuppenceworth is -

Is AUK committee correct in trying to outlaw the small events?

No.  If theres time being wasted supervising organisers then the Committee should seek to whittle out badly run events (repeated last minute card orders, late submission of results, that sort of thing) not small events. 

 - is this the best way to encourage Organisers to grow their events?  If not, what is?

It’s a blunt object and would probably achieve its objective of fewer very small events.  I'd challenge the underlying assumption that small events are by definition a problem though.  For example, what about an impeccably organized event that attracts all 5 AUK members that live in a 30 mile radius for the one Audax that they all ride each year?  This event is no hassle to AUK and can’t be grown.  I can’t see justification for making the running of this event more expensive per head than a larger one.  That’s of course just an example, but my last calendar ride (the UK’s first PBP qualifier of 2011 on 3rd January) had just 8 riders.  Sure I would have paid more, but IMHO that’s not justification for the proposed change.       

 - Should our team of volunteers who support the calendar events just get on with it, or should we seek to adjust our processes to cope with events as they really are, rather than as we might wish them to be?  What if this means we need more volunteers ... ?

I'd say “get on with it” and “do you need a help?” 

 - Should we encourage the development of Audax in certain areas, possibly at the expense of larger events elsewhere?

No.  Events will happen if somebody can be bothered organizing, otherwise they wont.  An excellent framework is already in place.  AUK currently does enough and shouldn’t be beating itself up on this.     
   
 - If you were to lose these smaller events, are you likely to ride bigger events elsewhere, or would you just ride more Perms?

I wouldn’t ride bigger events elsewhere, would probably do more perms, but they require a lot more motivation and unless one makes an effort to organize a Group perm there’s less likelihood of meeting your mates. 
 
-   should we have some "official" way of organising Group Perms so that you can be notified and invited to join in with others on a Perm, as a replacement to these small Calendar events?  (Remember, not everyone is on YACF)

No.  Group Perms will happen by e-mail, phone, YACF, Facebook, Twitter, down the pub etc etc.  An “official” way will need an organiser to volunteer. 

Oh and BTW, one man’s “subsistence culture” is another’s “not ripping off your cycling mates”.   I charged £6 for a 200k yesterday and used the bigger than expected field to fund an extra manned intermediate control.   

I would far rather be on the margins financially than blithely charge more just 'cos I can.  Of course, it's maybe a subject closer to Scottish hearts than most. ;)
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: BlackSheep on 07 February, 2011, 09:35:02 pm
The Bryan Chapman Scenic will probably not happen in 2012,

And although (at the AGM) there was a plea from AUK for organisers to run mor 300s. The same goes for my 300 in July 2012 - Mr Pickwick's tour of the Cotswolds.

There's usually about 15 to 20 finishers for each event - not enough to justify the initial registration.

Margins on the weekend's activiities aren't that great, and every BlackSheep event has to pay it's own way.

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 07 February, 2011, 09:40:45 pm
So an extra pound on the entry fee is that big a deal for lots of people? It isn't to me.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: BlackSheep on 07 February, 2011, 09:48:42 pm
So an extra pound on the entry fee is that big a deal for lots of people? It isn't to me.

For some people maybe not Dave, but for some yes. I know that some of the cyclists that turn up to ride my events don't use their bike from home for the fun of it.

I've been in that situation in the past, and it's not very nice - so please spare a thought for them.

Truth be known, virtually none of us spends more than we can possibly get away with when we're on an event. I don't want to quote instances - but if you wish ...............
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 07 February, 2011, 09:56:01 pm
Given the cost of getting receipts around most x-rated events, I think you are overstating the difference an extra pound on the entry would make but you can believe what you like. I don't know anybody who picks which Audax they ride on a particular day by lowest entry fee but there are quite a few riders that select the nicer route or nearest start.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Ian H on 07 February, 2011, 10:05:11 pm
...I charged £6 for a 200k yesterday and used the bigger than expected field to fund an extra manned intermediate control...

Here's a sensible approach. Charge what will cover coats on minimum entry numbers, then (if you wish) spend any excess on food and drink at controls (which of course saves the riders money).
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 07 February, 2011, 10:19:56 pm
...I charged £6 for a 200k yesterday and used the bigger than expected field to fund an extra manned intermediate control...

Here's a sensible approach. Charge what will cover coats on minimum entry numbers, then (if you wish) spend any excess on food and drink at controls (which of course saves the riders money).

I was lucky (and it was luck) enough to be able to do this on my upcoming calendar event.  I budgeted for 25 entries and ended up getting more than twice that.  This funded a hall start, refreshments, manned controls and a £1 token towards a drink at the finish (all for £4).

Would I have put the event on if I expected less than 25 entries?  Probably not, but only because my area is well served by Dave Hudson, Kent DA and a smattering of other organisers.  But, if I lived in West Scotland etc. then I suspect I would have gone ahead.  It would disappoint me if AUK hasn't gone through a similar thought process of "why it has a small field", rather than simply stopping discussion at the much easier "it has a small field".
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: BlackSheep on 07 February, 2011, 10:30:39 pm
...I charged £6 for a 200k yesterday and used the bigger than expected field to fund an extra manned intermediate control...

Here's a sensible approach. Charge what will cover coats on minimum entry numbers, then (if you wish) spend any excess on food and drink at controls (which of course saves the riders money).

I was lucky (and it was luck) enough to be able to do this on my upcoming calendar event.  I budgeted for 25 entries and ended up getting more than twice that.  This funded a hall start, refreshments, manned controls and a £1 token towards a drink at the finish (all for £4).

Would I have put the event on if I expected less than 25 entries?  Probably not, but only because my area is well served by Dave Hudson, Kent DA and a smattering of other organisers.  But, if I lived in West Scotland etc. then I suspect I would have gone ahead.  It would disappoint me if AUK hasn't gone through a similar thought process of "why it has a small field", rather than simply stopping discussion at the much easier "it has a small field".

Well done Billy  :thumbsup:, I wish we had halls around here thacould hired for £75.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Martin on 07 February, 2011, 10:37:41 pm
Would I have put the event on if I expected less than 25 entries?  Probably not, but only because my area is well served by Dave Hudson, Kent DA and a smattering of other organisers.  

Dave is catering on another excellent and popular event the Worthing Winter Warmer on the same day; the fact that you've managed to get this many entries on the same day speaks volumes  :thumbsup:

(Blacksheep; £70-80 for a hall round here is par for the course; you obviously have too many Antiques Fairs in your area  ;))
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: damerell on 07 February, 2011, 11:30:30 pm
Looking at the event numbers, it may be that the bar hasn't been set in the best place. I've analysed last years results and just over 40% of events have less than 20 finishers (obviously we know nothing about number of entries). Personally I find that a very depressing statistic.

Is it? It seems to me it could reflect either a shortage of riders or enthusiasm on the part of organisers. So is it good or bad?

The first audax I finished was a 100. It was the first year for the event, which may have contributed to there being 12 entries. The horrible weather certainly contributed to 5 DNSes and may well have helped the 2 DNFs. One of the synchronisation chainrings fell off near Pangbourne (luckily, there's a bike shop there) and we limped in drenched as the lanterne rouge - but by then we were 40% of the field. Was that a bad event? To me, it was a triumph that erased the misery of packing from the Start of Summertime at 170km.

Big fields can be fun (ahem, if you like audax at all); but so can small ones - on one of Liz Creese's 50s the whole field just rode around together like a CTC ride. It's obvious that small ones are more work per brevet card than large ones, but is the amount of work becoming prohibitive, and more importantly will hitting up organisers up for a tenner actually make a significant number of them not put events in the calendar?

If not, all this is doing is causing aggro and not fixing the problem... if it _is_ a real problem. After all, the small events are a lot of work per brevet card for organisers too; the issue should be self-limiting.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Philip Whiteman on 08 February, 2011, 09:33:50 am
"Would electronic brevet cards remove the transaction costs of production and the requirement for a registration fee?" Discuss.









.......Now where did I leave that wooden spoon?
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Martin on 08 February, 2011, 09:51:09 am
"Would electronic brevet cards remove the transaction costs of production and the requirement for a registration fee?" Discuss.
.......Now where did I leave that wooden spoon?

Validation fees are the same for paper or electronic cards so no,

but IIRC there is going to be a trial of paperless perms; presumably only by gps initially
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 08 February, 2011, 10:02:57 am
"Would electronic brevet cards remove the transaction costs of production and the requirement for a registration fee?" Discuss.

Probably, but that is a question that better minds than mine will tackle when looking to do this.  I think the days of electronic brevet cards for calendar events are several years away though, as the logistics aren't there for organisers.

AUK has many sensible initiatives that will help organisers and the validation team (e.g. organisers donig validation rather than sending to the validation team).

But I think the burden that falls on Pam (and John) won't ease in the near future (which is why I have some sympathy with the registration fee).  Which is why it disappoints me when I read reports of organisers who put extra demands on the brevet card production team by pissing about asking for additional cards close to event deadlines.  The committee are volunteers who don't deserve additional hassle.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Martin on 08 February, 2011, 10:41:05 am
"Would electronic brevet cards remove the transaction costs of production and the requirement for a registration fee?" Discuss.

Probably, but that is a question that better minds than mine will tackle when looking to do this.  I think the days of electronic brevet cards for calendar events are several years away though, as the logistics aren't there for organisers.
there is no problem at all with the current calendar system. if it an't broke....

plus most organisers become 100% paper based from the minute they leave the front door until they get back from the event. Perms however (especially ECE's) I'd like to see become 100% electronic someday
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Panoramix on 08 February, 2011, 11:01:43 am
Can't small events be run with permanent cards to sort the admin issue?

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 08 February, 2011, 11:25:35 am
I think Pam does offer undated cards, which allows them to be held over to next year - but they'd still be messy with info questions overwritten etc - as an entrant I'd feel entitled to a proper, unpatched, unscribbled Event Brevet Card.

I can see the Scotland issue (shall I call it the East Lothian question) is something that genuinely has to be accommodated.  Official group perms perhaps, as a last resort - but it should be possible to do better than that.

Oh and BTW, one man’s “subsistence culture” is another’s “not ripping off your cycling mates”.

I completely understand that.  Completely.  But whatever name you like to give it, it seems to me to be at the root of many of these circular discussions that are trying to tinker at the margins.
And it leads directly to -

every BlackSheep event has to pay it's own way.

With all due respect to Blacksheep and his very successful and popular events, that just seems a naive approach to me.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 08 February, 2011, 11:40:44 am
After all, the small events are a lot of work per brevet card for organisers too; the issue should be self-limiting.

Self-limiting to approximately 40% of the calendar perhaps. AUK's organisers seem to be keen to do a fair amount of work for not many riders.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 08 February, 2011, 11:50:17 am
After all, the small events are a lot of work per brevet card for organisers too; the issue should be self-limiting.

Self-limiting to approximately 40% of the calendar perhaps. AUK's organisers seem to be keen to do a fair amount of work for not many riders.

And it is a lot of work.  I reckon I have spent around 50 hours putting on the Redhill Beach Trip, all told.  I'm sure I'm not unique in that regard (at least for putting on a new event).
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mmmmartin on 08 February, 2011, 01:01:19 pm
Quote from: LittleWheelsandBig link=topic=43740.msg851886#msg851886
AUK's organisers seem to be keen to do a fair amount of work
Can I, as a rider not organiser, point out that Orgs are held in extremely high regard by the vast majority of riders, and if they needed a hand they need merely ask?
It seems to me that t'committee is vastly underestimating the appreciation felt by riders for the effort that goes into making these events happen.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: simonp on 08 February, 2011, 01:04:14 pm
I think if I included the cost of transport of stuff to/from my start/finish control I'd have made a £100 loss rather than a £40 profit.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Ian H on 08 February, 2011, 01:23:42 pm
I think if I included the cost of transport of stuff to/from my start/finish control I'd have made a £100 loss rather than a £40 profit.


Few, if any, audax events make a profit in real terms.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: cyclone on 08 February, 2011, 01:46:26 pm
Few, if any organisers set out to make a profit!

In my short audax history (4yrs) the events in Wales (that I have done) with more than 20 riders can be counted on one hand we often need a healthy number of non-local riders......I try and do a few rides across the border and the first busy event I rode was a bit of a  :o.

From my standpoint as a newbie organiser I can say that the amount of sheer graft for a calendar event is the same for 5 riders as for 50...In my case I'm checking numbers daily as although the card numbers are set 7 days from the start it feels that it might all happen at the last minute....To pay upfront for the cards should mean at least there is some chance for EOL's - I take on board comments by the more experienced orgs that they have cards left over...

FWIW there's no way I'd class my rides as making a profit (for me) the fuel cost alone to get to the start kills that off directly. I'm just welcoming the chance to put something back into a great series of rides  :thumbsup:

It would be a tremendous loss to the audax community if the smaller events weren't put on anymore (and thereby reducing numbers as the travel costs spiral upwards). I dont really think a group perm has the same feel as a calendar event but then I havent done too many group perms......

Just my 2p worth........ ???
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: simonp on 08 February, 2011, 01:54:05 pm
Any profit goes to the local CTC DA.

If I put the rides in the DATC then more surplus would be made. However large numbers of riders make for a harder day for organiser and helpers, so I'm not too bothered by smallish fields.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: AndyH on 08 February, 2011, 01:55:42 pm
Self-limiting to approximately 40% of the calendar perhaps. AUK's organisers seem to be keen to do a fair amount of work for not many riders.
And put on some cracking events in the process.

My 2 most memorable 200s last year both had fewer than 20 finish. I'd be particularly keen to have a go at the "Tregaron Dragon" in the future, which had something like 12 IIRC. Having said that the costs associated with events like those (travel, food, accommodation) are far in excess of the entry fee. If it went up a few quid to cover the fact that it is a small event it wouldn't really bother me.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: BlackSheep on 08 February, 2011, 02:02:44 pm
With all due respect to Blacksheep and his very successful and popular events, that just seems a naive approach to me.
Why is it naive, Every event has a finite income (a) and costs (b). For me (b) has to be less than or equal to (a), or I may as well go and stand at the bottom of garden and help fill the stream. I've never had any financial support, so that's the way it has to be. If you or anyone else wants to meet any short-fall then I'm happy to run the events differently. The tax man has allowed me a small ammount to carry-over each year to pay up-front for some deposits, but (his words) is unlikely to increase this ammount for 2011/12.
I only have a financial history to two of my events, and they are costed to break even - and then the entry fee reflects that.
Of the other dozen or so events, four were new for the 2010/11 calendar, and the others are only in their second season.
The entry fees were initially set to reflect the facilities ofered on the ride. Many of the cafes I use, Audax is completely new to them in terms of handling "slugs" of  customers wanting a faster than average service turnaround. So to show good faith with controls on the ride, I gave/give them an ammount to cover the costs of a waitress for the time AUKs use the control. In return the control gives that back to the riders in the form of "money-off" the riders' bills. So everyone gets a good deal.

The Bryan Chapman Scenic 600 and Mr. Pickwick's Tour of the Cotswolds 300 are not likely to feature in any future events calendar, as neither covers it's own costs under the proposed £10 registration scheme.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Ian H on 08 February, 2011, 02:04:08 pm
I think if I included the cost of transport of stuff to/from my start/finish control I'd have made a £100 loss rather than a £40 profit.

                                                   break even
Few, if any, audax events make a profit in real terms.
                                                    /\
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: saturn on 08 February, 2011, 02:21:38 pm
Not so much recently, but when I first started doing audaxes, in deciding which to do I'd pay attention to number of finishers last year as if being popular was a sign of a good ride. Reading this thread made me resolve to actively target some smaller events so I've just been through my highlighted arrivee calendar. It was beginning to look like I'd only picked popular events (coincidence because I haven't done them before or checked last years entry) but eventually I got to one with 6 last year and one with 16 so I'll double my efforts to do those this year.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Ian H on 08 February, 2011, 03:05:51 pm
As an example of how price-sensitive most riders are: I put a £1 extra on online entries to cover P&P costs. Most of my entries pay the extra. I don't think that a small increase to cover a registration fee would have any effect on numbers. Fees have gone up over the last few years for all kinds of reasons.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Philip Whiteman on 08 February, 2011, 03:12:52 pm
As an example of how price-sensitive most riders are: I put a £1 extra on online entries to cover P&P costs. Most of my entries pay the extra. I don't think that a small increase to cover a registration fee would have any effect on numbers. Fees have gone up over the last few years for all kinds of reasons.

Especially when you consider the price comparison with sportive events which charge treble.  My BP was oversubscribed a month ago and it is probably one of the more expensive audax events. I charge a base fee of £5 but when you take into account Paypal charges and day membership fees which accounts for the majority of entries; there are plenty of people prepared to pay £8.   Saying that, the registration of 2x£10 could easily  be absorbed amongst the 240 entries.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mattc on 08 February, 2011, 03:28:55 pm
Just because X,000 people pay £25+ to ride sportives, does not mean that everyone with a bike finds £7 a trivial sum for a day's cycling.

AUK has been a broad church - some organisers/riders want small events, some want luxury ones, some want cheap short ones, some want long arduous ones. Some want weekday GPS perms.

I'm not keen to make audax more like sportives without good reason.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mmmmartin on 08 February, 2011, 04:06:20 pm
yes i am perfectly happy to pay a surcharge for Paypal entries - it saves me having to pay 48p per stamps to put on three envelopes and is thus a saving.
Having said that, there is always the thrill of getting home from a tedious day trying to avoid doing any work in the office to discover an envelope with a Shoreham-on-Sea postmark containing a routesheet from El.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 08 February, 2011, 05:26:23 pm
From my standpoint as a newbie organiser I can say that the amount of sheer graft for a calendar event is the same for 5 riders as for 50...

That might be true if the work finished when the final control closed.
But the post-processing, and especially packing the cards back to the riders, can be quite a long job on a big event, and a bit of a shock if you've gone into "thank god that's over" mode.

Quote
In my case I'm checking numbers daily as although the card numbers are set 7 days from the start it feels that it might all happen at the last minute

It does.  AUK Entry Level Predictor (http://www.aukweb.net/official/gentry.htm)
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Bairn Again on 08 February, 2011, 05:38:49 pm
So far, the only justification thats been put forward for the registration fee is that most riders will pay a resulting increase in event entry fees for smaller events. 

Which is quite different from it being a good idea.



 
 

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 08 February, 2011, 05:47:16 pm
I think most Organisers (with 20 or more entries) would absorb the £3 and not even notice it. 
As far as I can see, it's the up-front nature of the payment that is causing a certain amount of angst.  But set against that, all event levies up to now have been payable after the event, which has certain disadvantages from AUK's point of view.  So why not at least split it a bit?

The Bryan Chapman Scenic 600 and Mr. Pickwick's Tour of the Cotswolds 300 are not likely to feature in any future events calendar, as neither covers it's own costs under the proposed £10 registration scheme.

If that's your only reason for withdrawing the Scenic, I don't understand what's wrong with allowing your other 600 (run on the same day and using the same facilities) to subsidise it?
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 08 February, 2011, 07:33:36 pm
It does.  AUK Entry Level Predictor (http://www.aukweb.net/official/gentry.htm)

Complete aside.  I wonder if this predictor is a tad inaccurate now, given PayPal entry.  At a guess, 75% of my entries come via PayPal and most of these much sooner than was the case with postal entries.  My current rule of thumb is to add 50% to where you are 2 weeks before the event (rather than 100%).  Maybe something to consider "surveying" at the end of the season?

Anyhoo, back to this riveting talk of £1 for P&P.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Martin on 08 February, 2011, 09:12:15 pm
It does.  AUK Entry Level Predictor (http://www.aukweb.net/official/gentry.htm)

Complete aside.  I wonder if this predictor is a tad inaccurate now, given PayPal entry.

depends a lot on the event and how strictly the closing date is observed; on my established event I get many emails saying "still got places?" from the regulars for the last 2 weeks followed by a cheque in the post several days later; they are slowly all turning to  Paypal. I generally get Paypal up to about a week before then none then about 6 (plus phone calls and emails about EOL's etc) a day before (I've never turned anyone away even after officially closing entries). No idea where the ELP gets its data from, certainly not organisers who are probably scouring Aldi and the local Job Centre Plus / phoning distant relatives etc 14 days before the event to try and muster enough helpers...
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: BlackSheep on 08 February, 2011, 11:09:40 pm
Having given it a few seconds thought, How's about:-

26 free cards for £9. And organisers self validate 300, 400 & 600 events - Only BR events of course.

Sure - poor old uncle AUK takes a hit of a whole 10p on the card production.

BUT our intrepid and incredably hard working Validators save well over £1 (prob nearer £2) on every ride event that's validated.

Can't see it being adopted some how for a number of reasons, those being:-

1, It's a reasonably thought-out solution.
2, It makes sense for a majority.
3, Riders get a faster turnaround on brevet validation, useful for longer ride qualification validation.
4, Everybody wins, AUK get a bit of dosh up-front, organisers less likely to drop events.
5, A BlackSheep doesn't always have to be Black or a Sheep.
6, The shock of getting up-to-speed on organiser validation for BR events. The plan was to introduce the 300, 400 & 600 in consecutive years, once the 100, 200 events were proven - well that was years ago. We should be well onto on 600k self validation by now.


EDIT 09/02/11 @ 14:04 to clarify diiference between ride and event.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mikewigley on 09 February, 2011, 11:46:27 am
5, A BlackSheep doesn't always have to be Black or a Sheep.

I just didn't understand that
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 09 February, 2011, 01:28:34 pm
Another practical (I hope) suggestion for Blacksheep's 600s is simply to register the two as one event, incurring one £10 fee instead of two.  You give riders a choice of routesheets on the day, or a combined routesheet or whatever.
The tricky bit is the need for a combined Brevet Card, but since AIUI all the controls are the same places, just the distances different, a combined card (with alternative distances and times in brackets) is actually quite easy to do, I can show you or your EvSec how if necessary.
Nice - the riders in the main event will be able to see what they're missing ...
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Ian H on 09 February, 2011, 01:30:49 pm
Another practical (I hope) suggestion for Blacksheep's 600s is simply to register the two as one event, incurring one £10 fee instead of two.  You give riders a choice of routesheets on the day, or a combined routesheet or whatever.
The tricky bit is the need for a combined Brevet Card, but since AIUI all the controls are the same places, just the distances different, a combined card (with alternative distances and times in brackets) is actually quite easy to do, I can show you or your EvSec how if necessary.
Nice - the riders in the main event will be able to see what they're missing ...

There is a whole quarter point of AAA difference.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 09 February, 2011, 01:40:51 pm
26 free cards for £9. ...

1, It's a reasonably thought-out solution.
2, It makes sense for a majority. ...

It is a reasonable suggestion, though regarding point (2) it actually puts more small events into the "hey I'm buying cards I don't want" category.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: MSeries on 09 February, 2011, 06:43:38 pm
Another practical (I hope) suggestion for Blacksheep's 600s is simply to register the two as one event, incurring one £10 fee instead of two.  You give riders a choice of routesheets on the day, or a combined routesheet or whatever.
The tricky bit is the need for a combined Brevet Card, but since AIUI all the controls are the same places, just the distances different, a combined card (with alternative distances and times in brackets) is actually quite easy to do, I can show you or your EvSec how if necessary.
Nice - the riders in the main event will be able to see what they're missing ...
So surely everyone will take the shortest route between the controls though and thus make the two event the same. Are there not additional info controls to demonstrate the different route and the additional climbing ?
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: jogler on 09 February, 2011, 08:50:05 pm
As an organiser-in-waiting I find this thread very illuminating.
Some of the statistics relating to the number of entries are interesting & suggest that it is not difficult for costs to exceed revenue.
If I charge £5 (which seems a fairly typical rate from a quick perusal of the calendar) per rider & get 20 entries that would not cover the cost of hiring the local village hall let alone the cost of food & drink(.Like others I regard the cost of petrol as not being part of the equation.) An additional £10 pro-forma is not attractive proposition.
The proposed start venue is not easily accessible by public transport which may be a limiting factor to some riders who would  otherwise attend.
 :-\
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Martin on 09 February, 2011, 09:15:41 pm
jogler; if you are not confident of enough entries to cover your costs don't hire a hall for the first event; there are plenty of zero cost alternatives (usually car park starts) and free finish controls (pubs; sports centres; even your own home etc) if you take that approach you can knock the entry fee right down to eg £3; still cover the new £10 fee and grow your event in future years from there (that's the approach I'm taking on my first 200; I also organise a full service village hall and free lunch event but I took it over so I know what entries were likely to be)
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: jogler on 09 February, 2011, 09:21:01 pm
^^
I now have other venues in mind.Home is one of them.The £10 thing will not prevent it happening.The entire thread encouraged a deeper train of thought.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Ian H on 09 February, 2011, 11:15:42 pm
The 100s I used to organise (now perms) used a local cafe that was willing to stay open a little later for the finishers. My current 150, 200 and 300 will use a pub that's willing to stay open until the cutoff (0200 in the case of the 300, but no alcohol after midnight). It's worth investigating no-cost alternatives.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 09 February, 2011, 11:28:23 pm
An additional £10 pro-forma is not attractive proposition.

Just a reminder - it's not an additional £10.  For most organisers what's been announced is an additional £3.
For a few Organisers of small events it's more, but only because previous attempts to impose a very reasonable 'minimum order' limit on cards have failed.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: AndyH on 10 February, 2011, 06:38:17 am
My current 150, 200 and 300 will use a pub that's willing to stay open until the cutoff (0200 in the case of the 300, but no alcohol after midnight).
Now there's an incentive.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: phil d on 10 February, 2011, 07:58:53 am
I don't look at the AUK yahoo group very often, but I did this morning, and was surprised to find no discussion of this registration fee whatsoever.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Andydauddwr on 10 February, 2011, 08:16:19 am
Coming to this late, but I wish mandatory paypal entries had been included with this change.  Surely AUK could facilitate centrally for a handling fee for those less technologically confident orgs?

Andy (feeling grumbly after the latest Blue Peter fest)
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: BlackSheep on 10 February, 2011, 02:06:09 pm
Just a reminder - it's not an additional £10.  For most organisers what's been announced is an additional £3.
For a few Organisers of small events it's more, but only because previous attempts to impose a very reasonable 'minimum order' limit on cards have failed.

That's correct.

From their argument (although none of it has been minuted), £7 per event is enough to cover the committee's requirement to cover costs for each event.

The increase in membership fees, anounced at an AGM in the recent past was more than enough to cover costs for (then) the foreseeable future, implying four or five years years.

But what I think most people would like an answer to is. and following the extended debate on LEL at the 2009 AGM is :- What's the resultant surplus £1500+ going to fund ? ? ? ? ?
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: border-rider on 10 February, 2011, 02:35:34 pm
Coming to this late, but I wish mandatory paypal entries had been included with this change.  Surely AUK could facilitate centrally for a handling fee for those less technologically confident orgs?

+1.  It's time to dump the envelope-and-stampery.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 10 February, 2011, 02:40:07 pm
You can already see what Audax UK's committee spend your money on. Unlike LEL 2009, Audax UK publishes its accounts. So will LEL2013. In fact, LEL's finance chap submitted our accounts to HMRC last week.

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 10 February, 2011, 02:41:51 pm
+1.  It's time to dump the envelope-and-stampery.

I must confess, I will miss paper route sheets turning up in the post. However, cheques are a pfaff. So yes, Paypal please.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Panoramix on 10 February, 2011, 02:53:40 pm
Can't we find a way of "funding" the smaller events? I have to admit that one of my best ever audax was the kite  & peacocks and we were less than 10 at the start.

There must be a way to do it, even if it means non specific Brevet cards. Can't we say generic permanent style brevet cards for small events (<20)? Frankly, I would rather ride in mid Wales with a generic card than not ride at all.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Somnolent on 10 February, 2011, 03:03:11 pm
Agree that cheques are an anachronism.

Mandatory acceptance Paypal for all NEW events / NEW orgs would have been sensible.... that said, I'd be against any compulsion by AUK on those very successful organisers of existing events who have so far resisted all attempts to drag them into the communication age.   As a newbie to this game I only know of El Sup, but there are no doubt others ?

Mind you I shall probably shed a nostalgic tear or two if in a few years time I am sending off the last cheque in my chequebook, with 2  C5 SAEs  :'( :'(
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 10 February, 2011, 03:04:54 pm
Can't we find a way of "funding" the smaller events? I have to admit that one of my best ever audax was the kite  & peacocks and we were less than 10 at the start.

One of the ideas I've thought about, but never really worked on, was for Audax UK to support some of the longer events that were likely to fold due to small entry fields.

IMO though, shorter events should be allowed to live or die by their numbers or the willingness of the organiser to plan them. There are so many 100s and 200s, that supporting the smaller events would cost quite a bit of cash, risks ossifying the calendar, and could inhibit new (unsupported) organisers. Also, you can run events up to 200s as shoestrings really easily, so shouldn't attract large costs unless you want them to.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: BlackSheep on 10 February, 2011, 03:11:25 pm
You can already see what Audax UK's committee spend your money on. Unlike LEL 2009, Audax UK publishes its accounts. So will LEL2013. In fact, LEL's finance chap submitted our accounts to HMRC last week.

Not sure what the above is repling to. But as LEL 2013 is being run as a company in it own right, I have no interest in what LEL 2013 is doing, I wish it (and everyone connected with it) well and hope it achieves everything it set's-out to do.

At the 2009 AGM, there was considerable debate about the way AUK supported iLEL 2009 carte blanche, and the considerable ammount of AUK subscibers monies used to support the event. And whether or not it was money well spent. Obviously to those that rode it - the was money well spent. There were AUK subscibers that felt it was not well spent. I'm of the opinion that in any structure there has to be ying and yang.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: AndyH on 10 February, 2011, 03:22:14 pm
+1.  It's time to dump the envelope-and-stampery.

I must confess, I will miss paper route sheets turning up in the post. However, cheques are a pfaff. So yes, Paypal please.

Maybe it should be mandatory that paypal is offered as an entry option, but surely with a transition period before cheques & SAEs are abandoned altogether, 3 - 5 seasons, depending on how many still use the old fashioned method?
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Panoramix on 10 February, 2011, 03:24:53 pm
Can't we find a way of "funding" the smaller events? I have to admit that one of my best ever audax was the kite  & peacocks and we were less than 10 at the start.

One of the ideas I've thought about, but never really worked on, was for Audax UK to support some of the longer events that were likely to fold due to small entry fields.

IMO though, shorter events should be allowed to live or die by their numbers or the willingness of the organiser to plan them. There are so many 100s and 200s, that supporting the smaller events would cost quite a bit of cash, risks ossifying the calendar, and could inhibit new (unsupported) organisers. Also, you can run events up to 200s as shoestrings really easily, so shouldn't attract large costs unless you want them to.

When I say funding I use it in a generic sense. Say that AUK sends to the organiser 20 unmarked brevet cards, after the event the organiser sends back the used and the unused cards and has to pay only for the used one. It means no printing for small events, low risk for people to organise new events and no argument for reordering cards. Ypu put a cap on it and make the cards slightly more expensive so that people don't abuse the system, job done.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mattc on 10 February, 2011, 03:30:33 pm
Quote
Maybe it should be mandatory that paypal is offered as an entry option, but surely with a transition period before cheques & SAEs are abandoned altogether, 3 - 5 seasons, depending on how many still use the old fashioned method?
Apart from liberating the space in your bureau taken up by that bulky chequebook and 10xC5 envelopes, what problem would this fix?

(Obviously if/when banks do scrap cheques, we'll need a replacement. )
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 10 February, 2011, 03:31:45 pm
Quote from: blacksheep link=topic=43740.msg854270#msg854270
Not sure what the above is repling to.

It's replying to this:

Quote from: blacksheep link=topic=43740.msg854193#msg854193

But what I think most people would like an answer to is. and following the extended debate on LEL at the 2009 AGM is :- What's the resultant surplus £1500+ going to fund ? ? ? ? ?

So, if you want to know "What's the resultant surplus £1500+ going to fund ? ? ? ? ?
", then take a look at the accounts. Or, ask a committee member.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: JohnHamilton on 10 February, 2011, 03:37:40 pm
1. Online entry is only going to increase, and it could undoubtedly be made easier by Audax UK providing centralised facilities to make life easier for organisers. But I doubt very much that it can be mandatory. We've seen the fuss that results from trying to force organisers.

2. I see in the future that the DIY system and Events system will become blurred, providing an easy low cost alternative to organising a traditional event (Ryanair Brevets).

As an "organiser" I'll be able to propose a route (for which distance is automatically calculated - no more arguments about AR) and a date online.

As a rider I'll be able to subscribe to alerts of what's going on in my area, and elect to "enter" such an "event", paying online.

These rides will be validated either by GPS (in which case no Brevet Card is required, and I just submit my file for validation as we do for DIY GPS now); or I collect receipts as I go, and print out my own "card" to attach them to. The validation is handled by the DIY secretaries (or their equivalents) who effectively become an arm of the validation team.

The "organiser" isn't required to do anything other than propose the route and time - all the "entries" and "validation" will be handled centrally.

There'll still be a place for traditional calendar "events" with village halls, bespoke brevet cards and all the other facilities, just as people still choose to fly with BA instead of Easyjet.

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: border-rider on 10 February, 2011, 03:39:40 pm

Apart from liberating the space in your bureau taken up by that bulky chequebook and 10xC5 envelopes, what problem would this fix?


having to have envelopes

Having to have paper in the printer, and the printer (which is in another room) switched on

Having to fix the paper jam/go to town to buy more paper/ink/etc (we don't print very much these days)

Having to have stamps (this is a major problem in the Volio Household; we really rarely use them)

Having to write the envelopes [or buy a printer that prints them, and doing the word processing]

Having to find the damn chequebook

Making sure it'll all go in the envelope such that the PO don't charge extra for it

Sticking down the envelope with sellotape because it's not sticky enough

Finding the damn sellotape

Going on an expotition to the post box, some miles away

remembering to do all this, or have its multiplicity of components in place, in time for the org to receive it (which I often fail to do)

Wondering of the Postman has been eaten by tigers again, or whether the routesheet will arrive in time

getting the routesheet in a paper form so it can't be reformatted or jigged about with

No none of it is insurmountable, but it's a hell of a lot more faff than just clicking.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: JohnHamilton on 10 February, 2011, 03:43:29 pm

Making sure it'll all go in the envelope such that the PO don't charge extra for it

Sticking down the envelope with sellotape because it's not sticky enough

Finding the damn sellotape

Going on an expotition to the post box, some miles away

Wondering of the Postman has been eaten by tigers again, or whether the routesheet will arrive in time


All of which the org has to do xN with the dodgy collection of SAE's they've been sent. Even with postal entry I'd still like to get rid of the 2x SAEs as an organiser.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mattc on 10 February, 2011, 03:43:43 pm
I think people overstate the issues with our marvellous Royal Mail - we had 3 separate deliveries this morning, 2 of which contained bike bits!
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: simonp on 10 February, 2011, 03:50:07 pm
My Brevet card order for my events is always left in plain view outside the front door by the postman.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: border-rider on 10 February, 2011, 03:50:33 pm
I think people overstate the issues with our marvellous Royal Mail - we had 3 separate deliveries this morning, 2 of which contained bike bits!

I might respectfully suggest that that depends where you live.

We often go a week without deliveries if the postie is running late, and we rarely get one more than every 2 days.  yes we chose to live here, but people do live in places other than towns.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: border-rider on 10 February, 2011, 03:51:37 pm

All of which the org has to do xN with the dodgy collection of SAE's they've been sent.

I can imagine.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 10 February, 2011, 03:54:55 pm
Following on from comments from Paul and Mark (and others).

As I've asked before, does the "pay £10 on registration and get 20 cards" mean that we can expect as proposal for an increase in brevet cards costs to 50p at the 2011 AGM?

If not, I feel the committee needs to disclose what the £3 top up is being imposed for.  If it is seeking to generate surplus to support activities (i.e. is effectively a levy) or to cover fixed costs then I cannot see why this would not be disclosed.  Indeed, I suspect there might be some sympathy.  Suggesting that individuals look into it themselves by reading the accounts or approach the committee individually is disingenuous.

Whilst no expert, without either of the above, a cynical observer might suggest that this gives the potential for the committee to abuse the regulation that any increase in brevet card fees be agreed at an AGM.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: simonp on 10 February, 2011, 04:02:35 pm
I deleted my paypal account.  So I won't be accepting online entries until I can choose a payment provider I approve of.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 10 February, 2011, 04:04:42 pm
I'm an AUK committee member, but I do not speak for the committee. I have my opinion on this topic, but I'm reluctant to say too much in case people assume that what I say is Audax UK 'policy'.

If you have a question to ask us, then send your questions to Richard Phipps who will forward them to the committee. The next committee meeting is on 23 February, and the topic of pre-paid cards is already on the agenda.

If you ask us a question on a public YACF thread, it will probably not be answered.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Philip Whiteman on 10 February, 2011, 04:07:00 pm
As this discussion seems to have diverged to electronic v cheque payments, I thought I would share some stats with you.

For my Snowdrop and Sunrise Express, combined payments by payment type work out at the following:

-   174 Paypal entries. (72.5%)
-   66 snail-mail entries.  (27.5%)
-   Total: 240 entries

For my Montgomery Madness Perm:

 -   15 Paypal entries (100%)

These simple figures indicate the popularity and ease of electronic payments for entrants.

From my perspective, I welcome Paypal entries as it allows quick communication and dissemination via e-mail.  Next year, I can advertise the 2012 event.  

However, it is not pain free:
- I still need to label return envelopes for the completed Brevet cards.
- I have to conduct a lot of manual transfer of data from the entry form onto Excel due to my inability to fix a macro from Outlook onto Excel.

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: phil d on 10 February, 2011, 05:08:29 pm
I'm an AUK committee member, but I do not speak for the committee. I have my opinion on this topic, but I'm reluctant to say too much in case people assume that what I say is Audax UK 'policy'.

If you have a question to ask us, then send your questions to Richard Phipps who will forward them to the committee. The next committee meeting is on 23 February, and the topic of pre-paid cards is already on the agenda.

If you ask us a question on a public YACF thread, it will probably not be answered.

As ever we must remember that yACF is NOT AUK, or the official discussion medium for AUK.  And only a small proportion of AUK participate in discussion here.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: damerell on 10 February, 2011, 05:15:50 pm
I deleted my paypal account.  So I won't be accepting online entries until I can choose a payment provider I approve of.
Quite. Mandatory Paypal would be dismal. It's all very well as an alternative to paper entry, but if AUK is going to mandate electronic payments, they should be done properly.

I'm heartened to see I'm not the only one with a soft spot for small events!
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 10 February, 2011, 05:20:54 pm
Part of the problem is that we have no idea what AUK policy or strategic planning is on a whole bunch of issues. We get occaisional snippets that 'things are happening' but there has been very little discussion or sharing of strategic plans. Ref: The Beta Website. Where did this come from? And where is it going?

The end result is when anything does happen we get threads like this one as interested members try and divine the committee's motives and future intentions.


And have you asked the committee about their 'motives and future intentions' on this 'whole bunch of issues'? Not in private messages on YACF, or at the bar after the AGM, but by email or letter to the secretary?
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 10 February, 2011, 05:36:05 pm
Yes.

Edit: I have at various times been in communication with committee member using a variety of communictaions channels. But I find it strange that questions must be raised formally via the AUK Secretary. Should I include an SAE? That last was a joke by the way!

Strange as it may seem, if you've a question of a committee, then it's best to ask that committee. It's no good asking committee members, because they are not the committee.

So, put your questions to the committee via Richard Phipps, the committee secretary, if you want an official answer.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: border-rider on 10 February, 2011, 05:39:37 pm
If you ask us a question on a public YACF thread, it will probably not be answered.

That's fair enough when it's a new issue. I chair all sorts of commitees, and sit on several more, and one does indeed have to be wary of making policy on the hoof.  But if there is already an agreed position on something, which has been discussed & minuted, it seems to me that there might be an expectation that a member asking for information on it could be answered, whatever the forum or medium.

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 10 February, 2011, 05:45:40 pm
If you ask us a question on a public YACF thread, it will probably not be answered.

That's fair enough when it's a new issue. I chair all sorts of commitees, and sit on several more, and one does indeed have to be wary of making policy on the hoof.  But if there is already an agreed position on something, which has been discussed & minuted, it seems to me that there might be an expectation that a member asking for information on it could be answered, whatever the forum or medium.

I agree with everything you say, except the last five words. In the case of AUK, although many of the committee contribute to this forum, you cannot expect us to pick up and/or be able to answer questions on this forum.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: daveb on 10 February, 2011, 05:51:03 pm

Making sure it'll all go in the envelope such that the PO don't charge extra for it

Sticking down the envelope with sellotape because it's not sticky enough

Finding the damn sellotape

Going on an expotition to the post box, some miles away

Wondering of the Postman has been eaten by tigers again, or whether the routesheet will arrive in time


All of which the org has to do xN with the dodgy collection of SAE's they've been sent. Even with postal entry I'd still like to get rid of the 2x SAEs as an organiser.

I surcharged postal entries for the Poor Student this year and put on the calendar notes "No SAEs required". About 85-90% of the entries were online but about 90% of the paper entries included SAEs.

I find online entrants much easier to handle.

Re the Royal Mail, I live in a medium sized village in Oxfordshire and still, somehow, one of the postal entries arrived a month after it was posted and a week after the event. The Brevet Cards also arrived after the event.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 10 February, 2011, 05:53:41 pm
Reflecting on Danial's spot on comments, I plan to write to Richard to officially register my views with the committee.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mattc on 10 February, 2011, 06:05:59 pm
I think people overstate the issues with our marvellous Royal Mail - we had 3 separate deliveries this morning, 2 of which contained bike bits!

I might respectfully suggest that that depends where you live.

We often go a week without deliveries if the postie is running late, and we rarely get one more than every 2 days.  yes we chose to live here, but people do live in places other than towns.
No need for excess respect old chap! I obviously wasn't clear; our lot are still clearing the christmas backlog. One package was at least a week late, and we are still waiting for stuff from the Jan sales.

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Ian H on 10 February, 2011, 06:56:09 pm
Yes.

Edit: I have at various times been in communication with committee member using a variety of communictaions channels. But I find it strange that questions must be raised formally via the AUK Secretary. Should I include an SAE? That last was a joke by the way!

Strange as it may seem, if you've a question of a committee, then it's best to ask that committee. It's no good asking committee members, because they are not the committee.

So, put your questions to the committee via Richard Phipps, the committee secretary, if you want an official answer.

It's also worthwhile reading the minutes of past meetings.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 10 February, 2011, 07:00:17 pm
Online entry with rider registration for members and non-members will ease the pain considerably.

I believe this is very imminent.
(That is, as an extension of the existing system)
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: BlackSheep on 10 February, 2011, 08:15:32 pm
So, if you want to know "What's the resultant surplus £1500+ going to fund ? ? ? ? ?
", then take a look at the accounts. Or, ask a committee member.

As there at least eight members of the committee that regularly peruse and post on these pages, I thought it a fair question to ask on this forum. - the forum or medium where questions are asked should not be relevant, if a committee member can give an answer then they should do so. And not adopt a RTFM attitude.

It now worries me greatly, that by strong implication the surplus £1500 has already accounted for.

It's not rocket sience (not that that's particularly complex), but I would at the very least expect a forward plan from the committee, and then have some insight into what future plans the committee have for AUK.

So respectfully the question to any committee member on this forum still remains. "What's the resultant surplus £1500+ going to fund ? ? ? ? ?
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: AndyH on 10 February, 2011, 08:30:02 pm
Maybe it should be mandatory that paypal is offered as an entry option

I deleted my paypal account.  So I won't be accepting online entries until I can choose a payment provider I approve of.

Quite right. I should have said maybe an online payment option should be mandatory.

........

-   174 Paypal entries. (72.5%)
-   66 snail-mail entries.  (27.5%)
-   Total: 240 entries

........

And the 27.5% are why cheques & SAEs should not be abandoned.


Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 10 February, 2011, 08:44:00 pm
Reflecting on Danial's spot on comments, I plan to write to Richard to officially register my views with the committee.

Billy, Richard normally distributes the committee agenda and papers a week before the meeting. You might want to get your questions to him by then, as he might want to circulate them in advance.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Fidgetbuzz on 10 February, 2011, 09:26:04 pm
I confess that if I stand back and look at a policy decision put in place by our committee, which has the modest impact of a £3 increase in the cost of putting on an event , I can not get my mind round why this is generating so much discussion.

We have elected the committee to run AUK in the way that they think is best for the future. We can not expect them to explain in detail every single decision that they make -- if in principle anyone finds themselves at variance with these decisions - then they always have the option of standing for a committee position themselves - or voting against the nomination for any single reelection post.

An examination of last years accounts shows a LOSS on Events of £5,300 -- covered from a surplus of £13,000 on Membership income and expenditure.

If the committee feels that events should move closer to being self financing then a £1500 increase in "brevet" card income is only a partial solution to the loss.
And as a matter of interest ( which I happen to pick up as I am currently very interested in the insurance position for LEL) - what are we doing running 500 calendar events a year -- 10 calendar events each and every week - does that make sense -- or does it impose an unreasonable load on the guys and girls who do all the central admin - just to keep the show on the road.

A much more relevant debate could be had about the far more important question

" What level of Reserves is appropriate for AUK to have, and what are they being held for- i.e. are we there already - or do we need more  - or even less?

Look at the bigger picture - if you want a worthwhile discussion.

And on this forum - no individual ( even if they are on the committee) can give a committee answer to any question - they are here as individuals - entitled to their opinions - and they do not speak for the committee here.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Philip Whiteman on 10 February, 2011, 09:36:32 pm
I confess that if I stand back and look at a policy decision put in place by our committee, which has the modest impact of a £3 increase in the cost of putting on an event , I can not get my mind round why this is generating so much discussion.


Very good observation
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 10 February, 2011, 10:04:18 pm
Great post, Roger, and some really interesting questions too.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: border-rider on 10 February, 2011, 10:08:28 pm
And on this forum - no individual ( even if they are on the committee) can give a committee answer to any question - they are here as individuals - entitled to their opinions - and they do not speak for the committee here.

Indeed.  I think that point's been made; the question asked was about an individual who knows the answer giving information on a committee decision already made and minuted.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Fidgetbuzz on 10 February, 2011, 10:32:50 pm
I do not believe that an open forum is the right place for a member,even when she/he is a committee member,to get involved in discussion about, or the reasons for, any committee decision.

I would not expect to find anybody, in full public view, having to try to briefly summarise what might have been a long debate - with differing views expressed. It is also totally inappropriate - are we  going to expect every single committee decision (with which at least YACF member does not agree) to be exposed to a full rethrashed debate on YACF.

If you really feel the need to have a Committee decision explained in detail to you then  the way to obtain that is to write to the Chairman - ( or Secretary) asking for a full explanation - and even then I would not be surprised if on a "minor" point - you were provided with an answer that was "simple".

 A quiet conversation  with one of our powers that be is much more likely to provide some understanding of the thinking behind any decision ( rather than an open forum thrash around)

Why all the concern - events made a loss of £5300
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: MSeries on 10 February, 2011, 10:37:39 pm
While this is a free an self regulating forum the ability to  debate any topic we choose remains sacred. Remember this is not an AUK forum, If committee members feel they shouldn't respond, they don't have to.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: border-rider on 10 February, 2011, 10:40:04 pm
I do not believe that an open forum is the right place for a member,even when she/he is a committee member,to get involved in discussion about, or the reasons for, any committee decision.

Indeed.  But that's not what I suggested.

If someone on here asks a question and someone else knows the answer (even if that's just "well the minutes say <blah>"  then it's usual, and polite,  for the answer to be provided.  I'm not sure anyone should expect an individual committee member (who may not have agreed with the decision) to explain it any further than the publicly-available information, to defend it or debate it.  That happens lots anyway - FF is very good at giving the background to stuff whilst making it clear he's not officially involved, for example.

I'm just slightly surprised at the very blunt statement that AUK committee members who have publicly-available info to hand, that has been minuted, will not ever pass it on to a member who asks on this forum.

Quote
Why all the concern - events made a loss of £5300

if that's the answer to the question, then thank you.  
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: border-rider on 10 February, 2011, 10:42:20 pm
If committee members feel they shouldn't respond, they don't have to.

Absolutely.  But I'd hope that if they wished to, and could do so as an individual they were allowed to, and I'd hope they'd occasionally wish to.

Nowhere is it suggested, I think, that they'd have to

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: MSeries on 10 February, 2011, 10:52:22 pm
If committee members feel they shouldn't respond, they don't have to.

Absolutely.  But I'd hope that if they wished to, and could do so as an individual they were allowed to, and I'd hope they'd occasionally wish to.

Nowhere is it suggested, I think, that they'd have to


I don't think anyone on here was demanding answers from the AUk committee. It's all just hot air which is what on line forums are for isn' t it ? Surely we all know that a letter to Arrivee is the proper way of asking our questions in public. AUK committee members are like everyone else on here, just punters on just another cycling forum.

I'm not surprised about the debate, it's what people on here love doing.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 10 February, 2011, 10:57:24 pm
If information is publicly available and minuted, why does it need a committee member to type it out on here?
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: border-rider on 10 February, 2011, 11:00:35 pm
It doesn't. But if someone (anyone)  has the info to hand then they could post it (or a link to it)

That's pretty-much how things like The Knowledge and Ctrl-Alt-Del, and the PBP board, work.  If people ask things others answer if they can and if they wish to.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: MSeries on 10 February, 2011, 11:02:58 pm
This is the Audax and Cyclosportive board. We all know that the AUK Website is the place to find AUK information. We are jsut being lazy if we expect to be spoon fed. STFW. The truth is out there. But don't stifle our debate, come on online forums feed om this sort of thing. I'll be dissappointed if there are no letters in Arrivee about this. I'd write one myself if I cared.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: border-rider on 10 February, 2011, 11:07:50 pm
This is the Audax and Cyclosportive board. We all know that the AUK Website is the place to find AUK information. 

Then it would be terribly easy for a link to the exact place to find the answer to a question to be posted.  Along with a helpful comment like "The committee decided <> and here's where you can find the detail".  Just like we all know that much of what gets posted in answers to technical questions is just the result of informed googling...
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: MSeries on 10 February, 2011, 11:10:14 pm
This is the Audax and Cyclosportive board. We all know that the AUK Website is the place to find AUK information.  

Then it would be terribly easy for a link to the exact place to find the answer to a question to be posted.  Along with a helpful comment like "The committee decided <> and here's where you can find the detail".  Just like we all know that much of what gets posted in answers to technical questions is just the result of informed googling...
I know. But as I said before, they don't have to if they don't want to, just like I don't offer technical help any more. We have no right to expect it on here, this is not the AUK Forum.

If we don't like what the committee are doing, we vote them out.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: border-rider on 10 February, 2011, 11:15:53 pm
I know. But as I said before, they don't have to if they don't want to, just like I don't offer technical help any more. We have no right to expect it on here, this is not the AUK Forum.

And as I've said before, no-one is saying that they should have to if they don't want to. 

What's been said is that committee members will never reply to a question on this forum. Full stop.  Even if the answer is in the public domain and they can simply and helpfully direct us to it.



Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 10 February, 2011, 11:18:41 pm
It doesn't. But if someone (anyone)  has the info to hand then they could post it (or a link to it)
That's pretty-much how things like The Knowledge and Ctrl-Alt-Del, and the PBP board, work.  If people ask things others answer if they can and if they wish to.

But at least 50% of the responses consist of mis-information.  That's statistically inevitable.  Readers of this topic have to be aware that the same is probably true here.  I'm as capable as the next person of talking through my hat, especially at this time of night  ;)
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mattc on 10 February, 2011, 11:21:55 pm
I know. But as I said before, they don't have to if they don't want to, just like I don't offer technical help any more. We have no right to expect it on here, this is not the AUK Forum.

And as I've said before, no-one is saying that they should have to if they don't want to. 

What's been said is that committee members will never reply to a question on this forum. Full stop.  Even if the answer is in the public domain and they can simply and helpfully direct us to it.
I think what MV has said is spot-on. However, I think there's a subtlety he hasn't mentioned:

So let's say committee members only post if they want to; in which case, we should think about when are they likely to want to. They're human beings - I would suggest that they are less likely to want to answer if they are under attack.

If you want to know something, ask politely - just as you might ask what is the thread measurement of a 9speed carbon LH ergo pinch bolt.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 10 February, 2011, 11:22:02 pm
To save people the effort, there is nothing in the draft minutes of the November meeting to explain the "long and wide-ranging discussion" held in relation to this matter.  Which is, in part, where my original questions came from.

I'm presuming all will be made clear in the next edition of Arrivee.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 10 February, 2011, 11:22:36 pm
It doesn't. But if someone (anyone)  has the info to hand then they could post it (or a link to it)

That's pretty-much how things like The Knowledge and Ctrl-Alt-Del, and the PBP board, work.  If people ask things others answer if they can and if they wish to.

Indeed. Compare that to this demand that arrived in my YACF inbox this week:

I'm not sure of my facts so I'm having this conversation offline 'to protect the innocent'. That would be me.

As is, I'm a bit cross about this actually. The word I would use to describe the decision is, 'high handed'.

The justification offered seems to be that there have been calendar entries with a single entry. Is this a serious problem or is it a reaction to the 400km x-event with the £25 entry fee from last year which I suspect didn't attract a large field? If so then it seem rather precipitous to change the rules for all based on a single incident. Ref: all the grief generated by the 50% rule for championship points.  

More to the point, and this is where the conspiracy theorists amongst us start to get excited, AIUI the committee meets four times a year, which suggests the last meeting was immediately before the AGM. Is this correct? If so, then  why was the issue and proposed course of action not raised at the AGM (or did I sleep through that bit)?

For my part, as a matter of course, if not politeness, I would expect changes to charging structure to be at least announced at the AGM if not actually put to the vote, as for example, was the issue of the cost impact of the growing numbers of life members and how this might be addressed.

As for the decision itself, it could be argued that it does not support organisers of new events or those in the less populated areas of the country (though let's face it the the sums involved are trivial). Will there be a similar charge for listing Perms? If not, why not?

At this point it looks like Bad Law caused by a lack of consultation, and it's the lack of consultation which is unpopular.


Now, as you know, MV, I've had similar barrages in the public fora on here. What's really undermining though, is that more than one person on this thread has expressed a view that I should expect to be available for this kind of scrutiny of AUK decisions.

So yes, ask me a question like "when's the next AUK committee meeting", but I'm not going to engage anymore with posts and messages like the one above.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 10 February, 2011, 11:23:54 pm
What's been said is that committee members will never reply to a question on this forum. Full stop.  Even if the answer is in the public domain and they can simply and helpfully direct us to it.

Steady on, chap. Nobody has said that.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Ian H on 10 February, 2011, 11:40:34 pm
A new committee was elected in November. It hasn't met yet - the first meeting is on Feb 23 (10.30 for 11.00 in Birmingham if you wish to attend as an observer) - so its members, particularly the ones new to post, are likely to want to meet, discuss, and settle into their roles, before pronouncing publicly on AUK matters.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: damerell on 11 February, 2011, 12:11:07 am
I confess that if I stand back and look at a policy decision put in place by our committee, which has the modest impact of a £3 increase in the cost of putting on an event , I can not get my mind round why this is generating so much discussion.

1) It's an £3 increase for an event with 20 riders. It's more of an increase for a smaller event, up to £10. I can well understand that someone who puts on the 50/100/150/200 quad more than once a year might be a bit honked off.

2) The intention seems to be to discourage events with small fields. Now, it being a trivial sum of money means maybe it won't have much effect, but one can still ask why that is the intent. Particularly, the aforementioned organiser is bound to feel that they are being actively discouraged from offering a choice of distances!
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Jaded on 11 February, 2011, 12:18:01 am
Modern world stuff.

Its an update on Paper | Scissors | Stone

Shiny paper 4 times a year doesn't beat Online Democracy
Online Democracy doesn't

Oh hell. I had three things lined up that illustrated it but I cannot remember the third. I've got a short attention span.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Ray 6701 on 11 February, 2011, 02:00:25 am
A new committee was elected in November. It hasn't met yet - the first meeting is on Feb 23 (10.30 for 11.00 in Birmingham if you wish to attend as an observer) - so its members, particularly the ones new to post, are likely to want to meet, discuss, and settle into their roles, before pronouncing publicly on AUK matters.

Where abouts in Birmingham?  Are there drinks after  ;)

I'd happily pay an extra pound or two to keep rides like the west & midland 400k running which only had 8 riders last year for some strange reason  ???
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: phil d on 11 February, 2011, 08:24:39 am
According to the minutes, Bennetts Wine Bar (in Bennetts Hill, off New Street), meeting in the Briar Rose opposite form 10.30
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 11 February, 2011, 08:56:20 am
10.30 tends to be social, but there's no reason why you can't come and be social first too.

Four of the committee (Sue and Keith counting as half each) won't be around until 11, because we're having a pre-AUK LEL meeting elsewhere
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Fidgetbuzz on 11 February, 2011, 09:44:26 am
And on this forum - no individual ( even if they are on the committee) can give a committee answer to any question - they are here as individuals - entitled to their opinions - and they do not speak for the committee here.

Indeed.  I think that point's been made; the question asked was about an individual who knows the answer giving information on a committee decision already made and minuted.

Time to go for a ride - but before I do - just this comment - why are some AUK members expecting to have the reasons behind any ( or even all) committee decision made available to them after potentially each and every committee meeting (ie when any single member of YACF feels that maybe the wrong decision has been taken)- that isnt the way it should work - the committee takes decisions , makes copies of minutes available for members to read - can be questioned and challenged at the AGM , can have an EGM called ( havent checked constitution but would expect this provision to apply), can be voted in or out of their positions.

Leave them to get on with running the activity in the way they think is in the best interests of AUK -- if you are unhappy - chat with a committee member to get some feel for what is behind any decision- if you are still unhappy - stand for a post.

If this sort of "inquisition" takes place over every committee action - then quite frankly in a year or two - we may well be struggling to find anyone willing to stand and  be exposed to this scrutiny

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mmmmartin on 11 February, 2011, 09:45:33 am
I'm not sure this is anything to do with me, as I'm not an organiser, but this is the relevant paragraph from the minutes (easy to find on the Audax website, by the way) of the meeting:

"SG/KH reported having processed all the 2010 season results – bar the couple
mentioned earlier by NH.  The total of 16,948 showed a continuing decline in
validated Brevets.  A particular concern was mentioned of several organisers running
events with single-figure fields.  A long and wide-ranging debate ensued on the best
way to overcome this problem, including a minimum card order per event per year, or
an overall event fee. Some concern was expressed that a levy endangering the
viability of such events would lead to riders opting for a DIY Perm instead.  It was
also noted, in passing, that entry fees for Devon CTC events are now to be payable
to the local group rather than the organiser which can only increase the amount of
admin required and be confusing to regular riders. The upshot was a unanimous vote
to levy a £10 pre-registration fee per event per year which would include 20 free
Brevet cards to take effect from the start of the 2010/11 season
. (my italics.)"

I'm not sure if this helps, but it does provide a wee bit of context to this long discussion.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mmmmartin on 11 February, 2011, 09:59:45 am
Oh - and isn't this a brilliant idea? From the minutes of the committee meeting:

"DKB mentioned he had recently learned the Estate of Bry Ferguson, a former Brevet
Card Production Secretary who had passed away in September 2005, had now been
finalised and that under the terms of his will, AUK had received £2,000.  Half of this
sum is to be used to purchase champagne or other suitable wine for consumption at
committee meetings “to assist members in their deliberations.”  The remaining half is
to be used to purchase champagne for the winners of the individual trophies.  Two
bottles of champagne had accordingly been purchased for use at this meeting and
the members raised a glass in a grateful toast to Bry’s memory."


I'm just off to alter my will...............
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mattc on 11 February, 2011, 10:09:10 am
Oh - and isn't this a brilliant idea? From the minutes of the committee meeting:

...
 Two bottles of champagne had accordingly been purchased for use at this meeting and
the members raised a glass in a grateful toast to Bry’s memory."


I'm just off to alter my will...............
It was a lovely idea.:)

 One can't help wondering how many small events that £2000 could have funded... <runs> ... ;)
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mmmmartin on 11 February, 2011, 10:42:17 am
The remaining half is to be used to purchase champagne for the winners of the individual trophies

I'm now off to the handbook to find out how to win a trophy...............
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 11 February, 2011, 10:43:43 am
(10.30 for 11.00 in Birmingham if you wish to attend as an observer)

Bring your own sandwiches?
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Keeff on 11 February, 2011, 10:53:08 am
(10.30 for 11.00 in Birmingham if you wish to attend as an observer)

Bring your own sandwiches?

It's a food pub. 

Keith
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: LiamFitz on 11 February, 2011, 11:18:52 am


Indeed.  I think that point's been made; the question asked was about an individual who knows the answer giving information on a committee decision already made and minuted.
[/quote]

Time to go for a ride - but before I do - just this comment - why are some AUK members expecting to have the reasons behind any ( or even all) committee decision made available to them after potentially each and every committee meeting (ie when any single member of YACF feels that maybe the wrong decision has been taken)- that isnt the way it should work - the committee takes decisions , makes copies of minutes available for members to read - can be questioned and challenged at the AGM , can have an EGM called ( havent checked constitution but would expect this provision to apply), can be voted in or out of their positions.

Leave them to get on with running the activity in the way they think is in the best interests of AUK -- if you are unhappy - chat with a committee member to get some feel for what is behind any decision- if you are still unhappy - stand for a post.

If this sort of "inquisition" takes place over every committee action - then quite frankly in a year or two - we may well be struggling to find anyone willing to stand and  be exposed to this scrutiny


[/quote]

...what he said. (me agreeing with Fidgetbuzz is probably a first)

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: phil d on 11 February, 2011, 11:32:33 am

Time to go for a ride - but before I do - just this comment - why are some AUK members expecting to have the reasons behind any ( or even all) committee decision made available to them after potentially each and every committee meeting (ie when any single member of YACF feels that maybe the wrong decision has been taken)- that isnt the way it should work - the committee takes decisions , makes copies of minutes available for members to read - can be questioned and challenged at the AGM , can have an EGM called ( havent checked constitution but would expect this provision to apply), can be voted in or out of their positions.

Leave them to get on with running the activity in the way they think is in the best interests of AUK -- if you are unhappy - chat with a committee member to get some feel for what is behind any decision- if you are still unhappy - stand for a post.

If this sort of "inquisition" takes place over every committee action - then quite frankly in a year or two - we may well be struggling to find anyone willing to stand and  be exposed to this scrutiny


While this thread has become very long, and so quite possibly looks like an inquisition, it is my impression (and certainly my position) that the decision is not being challenged, but there is a real desire to understand the background to the decision.  Initially it was just stated, as a fait accompli, and then there was a suggestion (but not from an AUK committee member, so an opinion rather than a statement) that it was due to card production difficulties, and a perusal of the relevant minutes hint that it might be difficulties at the validation stage.  

It affects all organisers directly, some more than others.  It affects AUK participants to the extent that it could cause the choice of events to reduce.  There is an acceptance that this is just an unofficial discussion between interested parties on the subject, though interestingly and quite unnecessarily a comment has been made by a committee member, sort of telling us to mind our own business.  It is our business.

A bit more information would not change the decision made, nor would it change the way any formal comment should be made through official channels.  But it might prevent any further ill-informed speculation, and possibly result in more positive discussion for the good of all, and who knows, possibly a positive suggestion to formally feed back to the committee.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Jaded on 11 February, 2011, 11:42:21 am
And maybe some ideas from the membership at large for increasing fields on smaller events.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 11 February, 2011, 12:08:49 pm
I can't answer Phil's questions, I know nothing about the current thinking - but, before I stood down from committee 2 years ago, I was lobbying for, as I called it, a 'Calendar fee', and ISTR that I was saying that a £10 fee with 20 free cards thrown in would be a good start.  At that time, no-one else saw much merit in the idea.

Now it's resurfaced (parallel evolution?) so naturally I'm rather interested in all this (as a bystander).

I think my feeling was that the (then) recent introduction of the online Planner, co-incidentally coupled with our very long-standing EvSec who was known to run a tight ship standing down - had made adding new Events into the Calendar 'too easy'.  
This led not only to (as I see it) too many events, leading to smaller fields which IMO does nobody any favours - but also to more event cancellations, which to us grizzled old-timers is The Cardinal Sin of organising.

So - my idea was - the payment of an upfront fee (and the £3 imbalance) would counter the 'too easy' effect introduced by the Planner.
It would also have the very useful side effect of enforcing the 20 cards minimum order which makes things a bit easier for Pam.  (I think if you rake back through Handbooks of say 10 years ago you'd find this minimum order of 20 for event cards, in print - it's just never been enforced, you can imagine how difficult it would be for her to do so.)

I emphasise - current thinking may have nothing to do with any of the above, which is just the way I see it.
And as a parting shot - actually my first idea was £25 with all cards free of charge   :o

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 11 February, 2011, 12:11:43 pm
though interestingly and quite unnecessarily a comment has been made by a committee member, sort of telling us to mind our own business.  It is our business.

Where?
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Keeff on 11 February, 2011, 12:14:09 pm
It is absolutely nothing about difficulties with validation.

Sue and I try to keep our fingers on the pulse of what is happening with regard to numbers of riders on calendar events.  We had been reporting to the board for several meetings that there had been a very significant downturn in numbers.

At the pre-AGM meeting, we were able to show figures from 5 complete seasons.   We had noticed a long time previously that 40% of events attracted fewer than 20 riders, and there has been an on-going discussion on how to increase rider numbers both in general and on smaller events.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, the card production and validation areas of AUK are running at quite a large deficit.  Not an immediate problem, but card and validation prices have been held for at least 6 years, while postal charges have gone through the roof.

The decision to introduce a registration fee for events was taken after a long discussion at the meeting.


Keith
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 11 February, 2011, 01:02:48 pm
As has been pointed out elsewhere, the card production and validation areas of AUK are running at quite a large deficit.  Not an immediate problem, but card and validation prices have been held for at least 6 years, while postal charges have gone through the roof.

As I said earlier, there's a real timing issue with setting these fees.  Really, the regulation (11) that ties them to the AGM needs to be revised, but that's a notoriously difficult thing to do.


If people want to equate 'not for profit' with 'pay as you go' then we can see a bright future where, as Manotea so memorably put it
... it's only a matter of time before skynet becomes self aware Audax administration goes fully online ...

It'll all start with the online entry process, which will
populate the online Start Sheet, which will
notify AUK's accounts of the number of entrants for the event.
(Eols via smartphone??)

Brevet cards will be 'free', and downloaded as a .pdf or whatever during the entry process,
(Pam will gratefully gracefully accept retirement)
each 'card' will not only be event-specific (as now) but dated,
and rider-specific (rider's name and address printed on the card)
and therefore non-transferable (see other thread).
(Info controls are a problem here, as are entrants losing their card before the event has even started  ;)

So on through the post-event process, much of which is already in place,
finishing with a precisely-accounted per-entrant and per-validation funds transfer from Org to Auk.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Manotea on 11 February, 2011, 01:22:24 pm
Really, the regulation (11) that ties them [fees] to the AGM needs to be revised, but that's a notoriously difficult thing to do.

For good reason, it seems. I attended the AGM and have no recollection of the Levy being discussed. It's not referenced by the AGM minutes in Arrivee as far as I can see.

Given the financial regulations are fairly explicit in requiring charges to be decided at AGM, that the charge is - against normal practice - retrospective, and the controversial nature of the charge (lack of consultation, impact on small calendar events, AUK strategy regarding developing events) the Levy should be withdrawn and resubmitted at AGM 2011.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 11 February, 2011, 01:49:16 pm
I think my feeling was that the (then) recent introduction of the online Planner, co-incidentally coupled with our very long-standing EvSec who was known to run a tight ship standing down - had made adding new Events into the Calendar 'too easy'. 
This led not only to (as I see it) too many events, leading to smaller fields which IMO does nobody any favours - but also to more event cancellations, which to us grizzled old-timers is The Cardinal Sin of organising.

I took on an events rep role at around this time, and indeed watched the calendar bloom. Easily two-thirds of an events rep role is sorting out a handful of small events on their patch. There are tiny events that are passed round riders like hot potatoes, and one-person-band organisers who will load up a new event on calendar publication date. Other are simply not administratively minded, but choose not to look for admin support. It's here that you get cancellations, and in my experience the number of cancellations is rising, albeit slowly and from a low base.

The events team do not have the time to carry out any development work, because they're too busy doing routine work. John H is brimming with good ideas, but I wonder how much time he has to make them happen. I stood down after a year, frustrated at having so little spare time to work on the big stuff, not least LEL which was starting to suffer. The validation secretaries do not have time to do anything much more than meet the admin needs of events.

Speaking personally, I've concluded that if Audax UK wishes to thrive, it needs to set the bar much higher for organisers, and reduce the size of the calendar dramatically. There is a place for small events, but I feel they sit better with perms. If an event consistently attracts just a handful of riders, then it won’t have all the trapping of a proper event anyway. So why not just run it as a group perm?

BTW – these are my personal views. I don’t think I contributed very much to the discussion back in November as I had a head full of other stuff. Like getting controllers for London Edinburgh London, and not getting my arse kicked over David Hudson’s lost 1000.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 11 February, 2011, 01:51:49 pm
PS - I always write committee reports for my official role (press officer) and unofficial role (LEL director). I'm happy to share any these reports from past meetings with anyone who would like to see them. You know where to find me.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: BlackSheep on 11 February, 2011, 02:18:20 pm
For good reason, it seems. I attended the AGM and have no recollection of the Levy being discussed. It's not referenced by the AGM minutes in Arrivee as far as I can see.

Given the financial regulations are fairly explicit in requiring charges to be decided at AGM, that the charge is - against normal practice - retrospective, and the controversial nature of the charge (lack of consultation, impact on small calendar events, AUK strategy regarding developing events) the Levy should be withdrawn and resubmitted at AGM 2011.

I wasn't sat too far from Manotea, and I must admit - Mrs. BlackSheep and I tend to agree. I'm going to have a read of Arrivee, just to see if There's something I missed. Other wise that's an interesting point, but I don't expect there will be any form of response.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Jaded on 11 February, 2011, 02:21:39 pm
Where do new organisers come from - do they start with one small event?
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 11 February, 2011, 02:25:58 pm
Where do new organisers come from - do they start with one small event?

They come mostly from other organisers who want to stop organising but wish to keep their event going. Personally, I think this is a poor way to recruit organisers, as I suspect many of these new organisers are cajoled into organising.

Others are inspired by other organisers, and tend to appear with oodles of enthusiasm that usually dampens down after the first rainy routecheck. If they get past their first event, they usually become quite successful with their events.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Jaded on 11 February, 2011, 02:34:01 pm
So first eventers should be encouraged?
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Ian H on 11 February, 2011, 02:43:17 pm

For good reason, it seems. I attended the AGM and have no recollection of the Levy being discussed. It's not referenced by the AGM minutes in Arrivee as far as I can see.

The agenda for the AGM is decided and published a month or more in advance. Any decisions taken after that period are for the following AGM to discuss. In this case (as has happened in the past with various items) we shall probably be asking the meeting to retrospectively approve the move. Remember, it's not due to be implemented until next season.

As there is now a new events secretary in post, there may be further changes proposed - who knows.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 11 February, 2011, 02:57:58 pm
So first eventers should be encouraged?

I think any nascent organiser should be encouraged, but at the same time the bar needs to set higher so that organisers have to work harder to get an event in the calendar.

I don't think that it's just a matter of experience either, as I also think that current organisers should not be able to organise new events unchallenged. Audax UK cannot easily limit or refuse new events, with the additional risk that any refused event will generate a 'save the xxxxxshire 200' campaign.

But I'm not events sec anymore; these are my personal views.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Manotea on 11 February, 2011, 03:23:57 pm

For good reason, it seems. I attended the AGM and have no recollection of the Levy being discussed. It's not referenced by the AGM minutes in Arrivee as far as I can see.

The agenda for the AGM is decided and published a month or more in advance. Any decisions taken after that period are for the following AGM to discuss. In this case (as has happened in the past with various items) we shall probably be asking the meeting to retrospectively approve the move. Remember, it's not due to be implemented until next season.

As there is now a new events secretary in post, there may be further changes proposed - who knows.

Thanks for the clarification, Ian.

This was not my understanding from the (draft) minutes on the website to which I had been referred.

Quote
The upshot was a unanimous vote to levy a £10 pre-registration fee per event per year which would include 20 free
Brevet cards to take effect from the start of the 2010/11 season. (my italics.)
"
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Ian H on 11 February, 2011, 03:34:49 pm


Thanks for the clarification, Ian.

This was not my understanding from the (draft) minutes on the website to which I had been referred.

Quote
The upshot was a unanimous vote to levy a £10 pre-registration fee per event per year which would include 20 free
Brevet cards to take effect from the start of the 2010/11 season. (my italics.)
"

Ah! A typo. I hadn't noticed that. I shall have words with our Hon Sec. ;)
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: phil d on 11 February, 2011, 04:27:35 pm
I think my comment earlier about "minding our own business" was probably ill-advised and poorly expressed in the heat of the moment.  I apologise, and welcome Danial's further contribution to this discussion.

I must confess that (simple chap that I am) I remain a little confused, with one suggestion that this move is to help address the shortfall on card production / validation costs (a perfectly good reason) and another that there is a need to stifle some smaller events (OK, that's not exactly what was said, but it appears to be the underlying agenda).  It may be that the latter has nothing to do with the registration fee, which is hardly going to be much of a barrier.

I find I have a lot of agreement with Danial's comments.  I'm sure we have all attended events (and not necessarily with small fields) that fell well short of AUK's normal standards.  And the issue of increasing cancellations could well indicate a reducing commitment.  So yes, the bar does need to be set high.  But I'm not convinced that discouraging small events is necessarily a good way forward.

Here in the SouthEast we have any number of events, and it is perfectly reasonable that there should be critical assessment of whether all are "needed" and whether some should be withdrawn.  This is a (very difficult) task of the regional co-ordinators.  But there are parts of the UK that are much more poorly supplied with events.  Not this year, so much, but in a non-PBP year there are major gaps in the calendar in the north of England.  We need to encourage people to come forward with events in these "sparser" areas, not put up more barriers that actually don't impact on the quality of the event.

Many new events will be small the first time they run.  If they are successful word of mouth (such as on here) will quickly swell the numbers in subsequent years.  If they are not successful (because of poor route, poor organisation, etc) they should be stopped.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Fidgetbuzz on 11 February, 2011, 05:02:23 pm
The £10 fee has little to do with encouraging or discouraging small events.

An organiser is aware of it well in advance of the event running - so if he expects 10 riders - instead of paying AUK £5.50 under the old system he now pays £12. If he cannot cost the extra £6.50 into his event and charge his 10 riders £0.65 extra - then there is something  wrong with the event.

The tenet of this thread seems to be that the organiser is going to be out of pocket by some amount - not true at all - small events would need to see a modest increase in entry fee to leave the organiser in the same financial position as he would have been in.

Look at it from the position of our volunteers - should they be asked to do all the work for an event with 10 riders for AUK to get £5.50 towards covering real costs ( not volunteers time and effort). This seems totally inadequate to me

What has been happening is that events with small numbers of riders have been taking up a lot of time and effort - and riders of those events have not been asked to recognise this in any way.

There is a point that is worth thinking about - is the £10 fee payable up front on listing- that leaves  organisers out of pocket for some months - and if the final decision has not yet been made maybe the brevet card fee of a minimum of £10 might be paid at a date closer to the actual event date - then the organiser is not having to fund this sum for too long.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 11 February, 2011, 06:41:57 pm
No need to patronise us with the ABC of organising.  I think most of the posters on this thread have organised an event.

Don't forget that organisers are volunteers too.  Having small fields are a disproportionate burden on us, possibly more so than on AUK.

Your analysis fails to recognise that no justification has been given for the registration fee.  You are simply putting forward a thesis.  One that I think misjudges why some of us are questioning this.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 11 February, 2011, 06:59:40 pm
Not getting any patronising vibe here. Which bit is patronising?
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Manotea on 11 February, 2011, 07:07:59 pm
Well, for starters, I doubt many Calendar event organisers are in it for the money.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Hummers on 11 February, 2011, 07:15:16 pm
I'm not an organiser but have helped on events so have an insight into the amount of graft that has to go into quite modest events by people with (quite often) families and full-time jobs. Even so, I wouldn't be put off organising an event by the £10 minimum fee although it's still not clear to me what this will actually achieve.

What would and does put me off is some of the posts on this thread: high-handed, overly defensive (to even the slightest of challenges) and as for 'up the bar', who the hell do people think the are?

H
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: postie on 11 February, 2011, 07:58:34 pm
well said hummers, i think some one is trying to turn audax in to something it is not!!!
i have been riding them for 20years now,we have all ways had small events as for making the bar higher,
dave hundson runs some of the best events we have ever had but now only up to 600!!
how long before along with other organisers we lose them and there rides.

my events seem to get 25 to 40 riders a number i am happy with i dont want large fields.
maybe AUK does not want people like me anymore!!
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Somnolent on 11 February, 2011, 08:04:20 pm
I think most of the posters on this thread have organised an event.

I'm one what hasn't, being a relative newbie, but I suppose that in some future time I might feel called to do so.

Your analysis fails to recognise that no justification has been given for the registration fee. 

I disagree, I think ample justification has been given in the preceeding pages.   And FWIW, no, it would not put me off becoming a new organiser.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: BlackSheep on 11 February, 2011, 08:10:04 pm
I'm now off to the handbook to find out how to win a trophy...............

OJ Simpson won the Heisman Trophy as the best college player of 1968. As a running back for the Univ. of Southern California.

Don't think he read the AUK handbook, so there's hope for us all.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: phil d on 11 February, 2011, 08:34:07 pm
Your analysis fails to recognise that no justification has been given for the registration fee. 

I disagree, I think ample justification has been given in the preceeding pages.   And FWIW, no, it would not put me off becoming a new organiser.

But has it?

If it's to try to reduce the small events, the concensus seems to be that it wouldn't (and some, including me, believe it shouldn't).

If it's to try to reduce the shortfall on card production and validation, it seems an odd way to go about it.  Taking 2009/10 as an example, there were 510 events if you strip out the overseas events, arrows/darts and the 24TT.  These had 211 different start locations.  While some organisers have more than one start location, there are equally some start locations with more than one organiser, so probably balance out (and there was a limit how far I was willing to go on this!).  So that is a minimum of over 200 ADDITIONAL payments for the treasurer to process (probably a lot more - that figure assumes that all organisers of multiple events will register all of their events at the same time).

Someone up-thread suggested this might raise about £1500 extra.  There were 19471 validations last year.  If the card fee was put up by 10p per card it would raise more (considerably more, as DNSs cost a card fee, and most organisers order more cards than they need).  And this would not be at all regressive, would involve no additional transactions, and given that card fees have not changed in the time I've been organising (6 or 7 years) would be unlikely to create much discussion.

As I've said before, I've no objection to either of the reasons propounded for this change.  It just seems an odd way to achieve either objective.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Manotea on 11 February, 2011, 08:54:57 pm
This two year PBP season has highlighted the huge disparity between AUK and ACP validation costs (20p for a BR, £1 for a BRM for those that don't know).  I am not aware of BRM events being boycotted on grounds of cost. Maybe they are; is there any analysis of event cost v rider levels?

As an organiser I bitterly resent writing validation cheques where the lions share goes overseas, and as a rider rejoiced that last year was a low mileage year for me and so ACP saw little of my cash beyond my SR rides. I also tend to ride quite a lot of perms because of the lack of local calendar events in my under populated part of the country. As a rider, if the cost of entry & validation for BR/BP events was increased to, say, £1 (a massive extra 25p) I certainly wouldn't blink.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Manotea on 11 February, 2011, 08:56:29 pm
Comparing the different types of events, my impression is that Calendar events are far more efficient toi administer then Perms/DIY Perms. AIUI, similar tasks are performed for the different event types only by different people.  For Calendar events the admin is farmed out to event Organisers via the regional event Orgs, perms to Perm Orgs via the Perm Secretary and DIY Perms to regional DIY Orgs. The big difference is that Event Orgs look after established routes ridden 'in bulk' whereas Perms & DIYs are progressed at a slower rate. For DIY Perms there is inevitably a duplication of effort and costs at the Org level compared to Calendar events for individual and group rides as each has to be administered as a seperate 'event'. From the riders perspective entering a DIY Perm is all 'cost' they get nothing back beyond a validated brevet. On a regular perm they get a routesheet and for a calendar much more.

At the central level I'd have thought the validation process for the different event types was rather similar, the big effort cost for the validation team, Sue & Keith, being the number of different Organisers they have to deal for Calendars and the slow drip of regular Perms. I cannot see the size of the field for calendar events has much impact, and if it did it would be regular perms which caused the most effort. I'd welcome their comments on this.

Whilst I don't believe organisers are in it for the money, S&K are definitely aiming for sainthood.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 11 February, 2011, 09:22:58 pm
What would and does put me off is some of the posts on this thread: high-handed, overly defensive (to even the slightest of challenges) and as for 'up the bar', who the hell do people think the are?

I'm a member of Audax UK, giving my personal opinion.

I don't ask you to agree with me, but I certainly don't expect that sort of insulting response.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mattc on 12 February, 2011, 11:42:41 am
The £10 fee has little to do with encouraging or discouraging small events.

<snip>

There is a point that is worth thinking about - is the £10 fee payable up front on listing- that leaves  organisers out of pocket for some months - and if the final decision has not yet been made maybe the brevet card fee of a minimum of £10 might be paid at a date closer to the actual event date - then the organiser is not having to fund this sum for too long.
Seems like a good idea.

The "New Organiser?" notes suggest running a 200k + short "supporting" events if you're new to the game. So Paying fees 6-9 months in advance of a completely new event could be a big disincentive.
Leaving aside the question of small events being good/bad, we DO need a steady supply of new organisers, so anthing that discourages them needs strong justification.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Somnolent on 12 February, 2011, 12:58:46 pm

£10 ?    Big disincentive  ?     

Way I look at it... (PERSONAL opinion from the POV of someone who might one day be a potential organiser)

I am not particularly well-off but £10 is not a huge sum.... it's more of an incentive to think seriously about need for the event(s) that I propose and to get it properly organised and publicized (which will take 6 - 9 months anyway). 

£50 or £100 would be a disincentive.   Not £10.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: JohnHamilton on 12 February, 2011, 01:10:55 pm

£10 ?    Big disincentive  ?     

Way I look at it... (PERSONAL opinion from the POV of someone who might one day be a potential organiser)

I am not particularly well-off but £10 is not a huge sum.... it's more of an incentive to think seriously about need for the event(s) that I propose and to get it properly organised and publicized (which will take 6 - 9 months anyway). 

£50 or £100 would be a disincentive.   Not £10.

That was exactly the idea AIUI. Payment in arrears would not have the same effect.

It is still recommended that organisers be backed up by a club so it would be not unreasonable to have your club fund it.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: MSeries on 12 February, 2011, 01:15:21 pm

£10 ?    Big disincentive  ?     

Way I look at it... (PERSONAL opinion from the POV of someone who might one day be a potential organiser)

I am not particularly well-off but £10 is not a huge sum.... it's more of an incentive to think seriously about need for the event(s) that I propose and to get it properly organised and publicized (which will take 6 - 9 months anyway). 

£50 or £100 would be a disincentive.   Not £10.
That was my understanding too, which I said 8 days ago back on page 1 !!!
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: hellymedic on 12 February, 2011, 01:17:53 pm
200 posts about £10!

Either I'm out of touch or cyclists are really the last of the small spenders...
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Somnolent on 12 February, 2011, 01:19:41 pm

£10 ?    Big disincentive  ?     

Way I look at it... (PERSONAL opinion from the POV of someone who might one day be a potential organiser)

I am not particularly well-off but £10 is not a huge sum.... it's more of an incentive to think seriously about need for the event(s) that I propose and to get it properly organised and publicized (which will take 6 - 9 months anyway). 

£50 or £100 would be a disincentive.   Not £10.
That was my understanding too, which I said 8 days ago back on page 1 !!!

In which case apologies for repetition !    :D  !
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: MSeries on 12 February, 2011, 01:26:04 pm
No need to apologise PpPete.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: MSeries on 12 February, 2011, 01:26:59 pm
200 posts about £10!

Either I'm out of touch or cyclists are really the last of the small spenders...
Only AUKs it seems. Sportive riders are prepared to pay more money for the higher bar events.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: jogler on 12 February, 2011, 01:34:53 pm

£10 ?    Big disincentive  ?     

Way I look at it... (PERSONAL opinion from the POV of someone who might one day be a potential organiser)

It's not £10 extra because £7(iirc) of that would be expended eventually on(20?) brevet cards which are included in the £10.So it's £3 extra.Not a disincentive to my mind.The fact that it's a pro-forma payment could make it unpopular for those organisers with 2,3,or 4 or more events to be listed on the Calendar.

I've just taken the first steps on my first attempt at organising a ride.If it's not attended to the point of financiancly breaking even it will die a natural death.This will prevent it from becoming an unwanted small event.Audax Darwinism,you might say

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: jogler on 12 February, 2011, 01:37:23 pm
200 posts about £10!


Seems to be that a goodly number of those posts are more politically biased than fretting about £10/£3
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Bairn Again on 12 February, 2011, 05:05:22 pm
I suppose I can sort of sympathise with the rationale - explained by Danial - thanks.

I'll typuically not charge less than £5 for any event, which I find discourages time wasters (I will rebate in cash or vouchers to ensure VFM for riders mind you)

So is what the AUK committee proposing that much different from that approach?  Not really. 

Right that is my last post on this subject!

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 12 February, 2011, 05:43:11 pm
I suppose I can sort of sympathise with the rationale - explained by Danial - thanks.

Not the rationale, just my POV on the matter. Cheers though!
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 13 February, 2011, 09:54:16 am
A thought.  Can the Audax UK rider list facility be amended to allow recording DNS and DNF?

I have just deleted information from my own event that I believe AUK would have found informative (thinking of the comments that AUK finds it difficult to determine how many DNS's and DNF's an event has).

PS: realise this is aimed at the relevant official.  But I don't know who that would be in this case, but suspect the usual suspects will be following this thread.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 13 February, 2011, 09:57:00 am
Pete Coates is your chap. I think it's a really good idea.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: cyclone on 13 February, 2011, 10:52:34 am
+1 to Billys suggestion...
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mattc on 13 February, 2011, 10:25:09 pm
Some of the recent posts seem to support the idea that your £10 (or £20 if you go for the recommended 200/100 double) is a deposit that gets you the rights to your local AUK money-making franchise. I find this rather discomfiting ...
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Keeff on 14 February, 2011, 07:26:56 am
A thought.  Can the Audax UK rider list facility be amended to allow recording DNS and DNF?

I have just deleted information from my own event that I believe AUK would have found informative (thinking of the comments that AUK finds it difficult to determine how many DNS's and DNF's an event has).

PS: realise this is aimed at the relevant official.  But I don't know who that would be in this case, but suspect the usual suspects will be following this thread.

This has got to be the most stupid idea yet.

Don't you realise how many result sheets we already get with DNSs and DNFs left in? And how long they take to sort out, so we get to the list of successful riders.


One client named his event ****s Birthday Bash and sent a list with Gran, Aunt Mabel and Spot the Dog on it for us to sort out.

Please think on.

Keith
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: JohnHamilton on 14 February, 2011, 07:40:28 am
Data on numbers of DNS/DNF would undoubtedly be useful, but only that (i.e. the number of each), not added in to the finish list itself.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 14 February, 2011, 07:46:00 am
Keeff - point taken.  John's variant would mean little or no work for you and meet the idea I had in mind.

It simply struck me as a waste of information deleting the riders from the finish list, I didn't realise it involved that much extra work to sort and filter uploaded excel finish lists (I wasn't imagining the DNS/DNF information be added to the paper version or that the redundant cards would be posted to the validation team).
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: phil d on 14 February, 2011, 08:39:19 am
Keef's point is indeed well made.  It is disappointing (though I suppose not so very surprising) to hear that simple guidance on submitting the finish list cannot be followed.

It may not be practical - I'm just thinking out loud really - but given that Mr U.N.Dulates is collating the requirements for the organisers' section of the new website, and that he thinks recording of the numbers of DNS/DNF would be useful, it might be possible for us organisers to be able to note these two numbers before we finalise the finish list.  Depends on most organisers using the on-line start list to manage their entries and results submission, and I don't know whether this is the case.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Keeff on 14 February, 2011, 08:40:19 am
When Orgs have used the startlist generator, filtered out the non-finishers and uploaded the "finishers list", validation is easy and a pleasure.

The 40% who  use other means of providing us with info cause 90% of the work.

 As an example, many orgs have their own databases of riders, some going back many years.  Anyone entering their events is added to the orgs own start list, often using old information regarding AUK membership status.  The resulting finishers list may then look fine, but is a nightmare to validate and record.  One recent event has had 8 separate queries from riders who did the event but whose names didn't appear on the AUK website.

The AUK generator is now totally brilliant.  More often than not, the recording process can be achieved with "one click."

Keith
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: simonp on 14 February, 2011, 12:09:49 pm
I find the startlist generator a slight PITA.  I'd like to allocate entry numbers on arrival of entries, but the startlist generator does it in alphabetical order.  Then when I have a few EOLs this means it inserts new entries in the middle so I can't use entry numbers.  I'd like the start list sort order to be under my control, the removal of non-finishers not to re-number entries, and the removal of finishers to be undo-able should I make a mistake.

None of these should preclude it doing the right thing for the validation secretaries, and it might make users less inclined to do it their own way.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: mattc on 14 February, 2011, 12:15:50 pm
I think I now understand how to use the online list thingy. However, on my first big event it was a right pain.

This was because it wasn't clear what the end-point should be. When I got my first entries I added them to a perfectly logical spreadsheet, which also had columns for the different payments (so I could use it in my overall accounts spreadsheet).

Munging this afterwards to a format for the validators was a whole load of extra work. Once you've seen the process end-to-end, it makes more sense, and is a pretty slick system.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Manotea on 14 February, 2011, 12:57:28 pm
The tricky bit is having to maintain two sets of lists, the online list which contains details of AUK riders, names of non-auks and columns used by the validators and a spreadsheet which also contains details of non-AUKs (addresses, etc.) used to generate labels plus whatever columns you require (contact details, details of ride materials dispatched, etc.).

If all riders registered online for the event, sportive style, this double entry system would mostly go away AND we'd have a built in event marketing resource. Some might not consider the last a good thing!
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 14 February, 2011, 01:07:38 pm
I haven't used anything but the online tool for the two events I ran since it was introduced.  It gave me pretty much everything I needed.

I do have some thoughts for minor improvements that would have made my life a wee bit easier (e.g. a facility where it does the ride time calculation for you if you enter the finish time and the ability to enter non member addresses).

Suspect I'll email my thoughts to the relevant official once my April event is out of the way.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: JohnHamilton on 14 February, 2011, 01:41:11 pm
I suspect there's as many ways of using it as there are organisers.

Personally I just tend to use it to generate the finish list to go to the validators, and use my own spreadsheets to track entries and print labels; just doing a single batch entry after the event.

As I noted on the website thread, I'm collating requirements for upgrades to the Events Planner, so please send me any suggestions you may have.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Keeff on 14 February, 2011, 01:43:50 pm
The tricky bit is having to maintain two sets of lists, the online list which contains details of AUK riders, names of non-auks and columns used by the validators and a spreadsheet which also contains details of non-AUKs (addresses, etc.) used to generate labels plus whatever columns you require (contact details, details of ride materials dispatched, etc.).

If all riders registered online for the event, sportive style, this double entry system would mostly go away AND we'd have a built in event marketing resource. Some might not consider the last a good thing!

You obviously haven't looked at it lately.  It now treats members and non-members alike in the same list.  Even remembers names and auk numbers from previous events.  It updates the alphabetical list as you compile the list. It lets you handle medal sales, takes rider times when you're listing BRM events, end even lets me list EOL's in advance so I can do a brevet card label.

I would have bet my mortgage that Simon would not like it though.

If AUK were mine, validations would be 10p for those using it and £1 for the rest.

Keith

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: phil d on 14 February, 2011, 01:59:44 pm
I find the startlist generator a slight PITA.  I'd like to allocate entry numbers on arrival of entries, but the startlist generator does it in alphabetical order.  Then when I have a few EOLs this means it inserts new entries in the middle so I can't use entry numbers.  I'd like the start list sort order to be under my control, the removal of non-finishers not to re-number entries, and the removal of finishers to be undo-able should I make a mistake.

None of these should preclude it doing the right thing for the validation secretaries, and it might make users less inclined to do it their own way.


I think I must be missing something here.  If the entries are all in alphabetical order, what do you need an entry number for?
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 14 February, 2011, 02:02:03 pm
If AUK were mine, validations would be 10p for those using it and £1 for the rest.
</Harry Secombe>

Entry numbers - yes lots of organisers use those (I've never quite understood what it's for either, but there is a space for it on the brevet card) and that would be a worthwhile improvement to the Start List, I'll mention it to Peter.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: BlackSheep on 14 February, 2011, 02:16:35 pm
I think I must be missing something here.  If the entries are all in alphabetical order, what do you need an entry number for?

No Phil, you haven't missed anything.

The brevet card as we love/loath/use at the present is out-dated in more than one area. One of these being the "Entry No." it is of virtually no use.

As is the "CTC DA" line. some folk might think they're in DAs - but from the info I've received DAs 'ceased to be' a couple of years ago.

It probably deserves a thread all of it's own, much of the info put on brevet cards - should only be done by the brevet card owner.
I'd be happy with just space for the rider's AUK number and the signature.

Other stuff is largely superfluous.

EDIT: Obviously the certified page and control boxes are required,
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Manotea on 14 February, 2011, 02:20:17 pm
... even lets me list EOL's in advance so I can do a brevet card label.

Gosh, it foretells the future, now that's impressive!

But yes, it is much improved. I maintain an external spreadsheet to cater for non-auk addresses (I put addresses on the brevet labels, though I guess that is spoiling 'em) and as 75% of entries - auk & non-auk come via paypal - there is a second label run for the brevet card despatch.  I also record contact details for despatch of materials by email though that will stop once we have event details fully online.

So the 'missing' bits are to do with supporting non-auk entries and contact details. These are rider registration rather than start/finish list issues.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: JohnHamilton on 14 February, 2011, 02:39:50 pm
I think I must be missing something here.  If the entries are all in alphabetical order, what do you need an entry number for?

I gave up using numbers very quickly. I found riders much more likely to remember their name than a random number I'd allocated them.

And nothing slows down registration quite like having someone not knowing their number and having to search through a non-alphabetical list for their name.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: TOBY on 14 February, 2011, 02:53:02 pm
I think I must be missing something here.  If the entries are all in alphabetical order, what do you need an entry number for?

I gave up using numbers very quickly. I found riders much more likely to remember their name than a random number I'd allocated them.

And nothing slows down registration quite like having someone not knowing their number and having to search through a non-alphabetical list for their name.

(http://www.blather.net/zeitgeist/archives/simpsons_prisoner.jpg)
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 14 February, 2011, 03:04:50 pm
DAs don't exist? Good point - someone should correct this data:
Results for current season (http://www.aukweb.net/results/detail/this/ctc)

It's uncorrectable because no-one knows what the definitive replacements are.
I know a DA Sec who died of a broken heart when he discovered that what he was running was no longer a DA ...

(this discussion is breaking up like a Scotland/Wales rugby match)
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: simonp on 14 February, 2011, 03:31:26 pm
... even lets me list EOL's in advance so I can do a brevet card label.

Gosh, it foretells the future, now that's impressive!

But yes, it is much improved. I maintain an external spreadsheet to cater for non-auk addresses (I put addresses on the brevet labels, though I guess that is spoiling 'em) and as 75% of entries - auk & non-auk come via paypal - there is a second label run for the brevet card despatch.  I also record contact details for despatch of materials by email though that will stop once we have event details fully online.

So the 'missing' bits are to do with supporting non-auk entries and contact details. These are rider registration rather than start/finish list issues.

They're control issues.  I give each control their own sheet to mark riders off.  Then if someone is missing, I know who.  The entry number is used to quickly find the correct line on the sheet (it's numbered) and then the controller reads across to check the name matches.  This is particularly useful for a distant control where the controller can't get to the start and needs to be given a control sheet in advance, with blank lines for EOLs.

Once back home after the event(s) the EOLs have to be entered onto the system and break the numeric ordering of the hard copy, which is used as a cross-check when collating cards to validate to ensure that there hasn't been an error somewhere.  These processes are always slower when the order on the finish control sheet doesn't match the online list.

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 14 February, 2011, 04:16:41 pm
There will never be a one size fits all entry list that suits all purposes.  I suspect we have to keep in mind that it is there primarily to help AUK rather than organisers.  Anything that makes our life easier is a bonus.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: simonp on 14 February, 2011, 04:58:14 pm
This reminds me, one of the ways I tried to streamline the process was to write a script that converts a GPX of a route into a routesheet.  It worked reasonably well last year, but the effort would be more worthwhile if I could make it good enough to be used by other orgs.  Another thing on the to-do list.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Phixie on 14 February, 2011, 10:02:01 pm


Thanks for the clarification, Ian.

This was not my understanding from the (draft) minutes on the website to which I had been referred.

Quote
The upshot was a unanimous vote to levy a £10 pre-registration fee per event per year which would include 20 free
Brevet cards to take effect from the start of the 2010/11 season. (my italics.)
"

Ah! A typo. I hadn't noticed that. I shall have words with our Hon Sec. ;)



Oops!  Many apologies - mea culpa.  The Minutes will be amended before they are agreed as a true record.  It was never the intentiom to implement it retrospectively.


If there is any AUK member who wishes to sit in on the committee meeting as an observer, will they please advise me so that appropriate arrangements may be made to accomodate them, otherwise there will be insufficient chairs

Regards,

RP
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: simonp on 15 February, 2011, 11:20:30 pm
I would have bet my mortgage that Simon would not like it though.

I thought maybe I'd been very harsh. Then I re-read my post before responding to this. I said it was a slight pain because of the sort order not matching the event paperwork. It slowed me down doing a job which I find tedious and hate doing.

FWIW I believe you guys do a great job and don't know how you manage it.

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Martin on 08 March, 2011, 01:42:55 pm
I see the £7 organiser's fee includes the first 20 Brevet cards;

anybody know if these can be blank ones for re-use if unsold?

also another enquiry I've had; can BRM cards be re-used as BR? I'd say yes as it's only the inside; extra sticker and final validation that costs more.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: DanialW on 08 March, 2011, 03:07:04 pm
I don't know the answer, but even if you had leftover cards, you would still need to buy another 20 (at least) for your next event.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: BlackSheep on 08 March, 2011, 03:19:25 pm
I don't know the answer, but even if you had leftover cards, you would still need to buy another 20 (at least) for your next event.

So the planned implementation is hardly an improvement, in fact it turning many into busy fools - really guys, if you had to run a sweetshop, would you say to every customer." No you can only buy 10kg bags, even though I know you can only eat 125g".

Come-on, be big and grown-up. What other alternatives did you consider?

Answers not expected.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 08 March, 2011, 04:11:58 pm
£25 and as many cards as you can eat you need free of charge?  Maybe as an option for any Organiser who thinks it's worth a gamble?

I notice the £7 is still referred to as an 'event fee', which begs the question of what will happen to it when the card fees are raised (as they inevitably will be).
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Billy Weir on 08 March, 2011, 07:34:09 pm
Can we change the subject heading  ;)
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Martin on 08 March, 2011, 07:40:03 pm
I don't know the answer, but even if you had leftover cards, you would still need to buy another 20 (at least) for your next event.

if I had blanks I could donate them to another organiser to run through a printer.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 09 March, 2011, 11:00:32 am
(http://www.aukadia.net/pix/binned.jpg)
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Ian H on 09 March, 2011, 12:07:09 pm
(http://www.aukadia.net/pix/binned.jpg)
That's rubbish!
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Hummers on 09 March, 2011, 05:21:37 pm
(http://www.aukadia.net/pix/binned.jpg)

So, you were in my study after Mrs H had done the spring cleaning?

H

Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Martin on 25 July, 2011, 09:59:01 pm
I've just paid the £7 (not £10) fee for each of my 4 events for next year; all very slick and efficient thanks AUK team  :thumbsup:; hopefully I'll receive an email shortly telling me if any are short distance so I can work on the routes (don't use google walking pretty please  :))
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Ian H on 25 July, 2011, 10:14:42 pm
The event registration form is now up on the website (for existing organisers). Note that registering an event does not guarantee that it will be accepted.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Martin on 25 July, 2011, 10:25:50 pm
The event registration form is now up on the website (for existing organisers). Note that registering an event does not guarantee that it will be accepted.

what are the criteria for acceptance (apart from the obvious distance rules and number of controls)?
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: frankly frankie on 25 July, 2011, 10:29:13 pm
Ian your new avatar is looking a bit grey.  John Major-ish dare I suggest.
Title: Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
Post by: Ian H on 25 July, 2011, 10:42:56 pm

what are the criteria for acceptance (apart from the obvious distance rules and number of controls)?

Same as before. There's unlikely to be a problem with repeats of this year's events, unless there were unresolvable problms with the organisation.

Ian your new avatar is looking a bit grey.  John Major-ish dare I suggest.

Pah!