Author Topic: Routesheets and The Law  (Read 12324 times)

Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #25 on: 20 September, 2010, 05:30:00 pm »
You can of course be sued for absolutely anything, but whether you can be successfully sued is another kettle of fish.

Whilst I can see the argument against putting things like "Warning loose surface" on a routesheet, but I can also see that you'd feel pretty bad if you choose not to put a warning for the reasons stated, and someone did come off on a bad surface.

I would have thought that you could add a coverall along the lines of "indications of road conditions on this routesheet are only advisory and do not preclude actual conditions differing, or not being indicated", and of course the age old "Use at your own risk".

You have to behave sensibly, and assume that most other people will (including the courts), otherwise you wouldn't get out of bed in the morning for fear of being sued, and your certainly wouldn't get involved in organising any cycling events.
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Wowbagger

  • Former Sylph
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #26 on: 20 September, 2010, 05:33:04 pm »
Philips have published a number of booklets of cycle tours, written / compiled by Nick Cotton.

I fail to understand why there should be any more likelihood of someone being sued for publishing a bike ride on line compared to publishing one on paper. Looking through one of my copies, I see no warnings or disclaimers.
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #27 on: 20 September, 2010, 05:56:32 pm »
There was an MTB mag that used to publish tear out routesheets every edition.   I also have some 'route books' based on OS, others by various authors including one with routes sketched.   

All of this speculation leads me back to my original point upthread:   Until we know what the exact nature of the query to the lawyer is we simply cannot understand.

Chris S

Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #28 on: 20 September, 2010, 06:18:02 pm »
Philips have published a number of booklets of cycle tours, written / compiled by Nick Cotton.

That itinerant ne'r do well from Eastenders? Never got the impression he was into cycling.

Wowbagger

  • Former Sylph
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #29 on: 20 September, 2010, 06:25:11 pm »
Philips have published a number of booklets of cycle tours, written / compiled by Nick Cotton.

That itinerant ne'r do well from Eastenders? Never got the impression he was into cycling.

That's a television programme, isn't it?
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #30 on: 20 September, 2010, 06:33:08 pm »
There was an MTB mag that used to publish tear out routesheets every edition.  

C+ and The Comic still do I believe.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #31 on: 20 September, 2010, 06:46:33 pm »
Philips have published a number of booklets of cycle tours, written / compiled by Nick Cotton.

I fail to understand why there should be any more likelihood of someone being sued for publishing a bike ride on line compared to publishing one on paper. Looking through one of my copies, I see no warnings or disclaimers.
possibly true, but it would be pretty flakey logic to move from this, to then advising someone else to follow the same course of action.
And the publishers just might have more insurance than our valiant website host - we don't know.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #32 on: 20 September, 2010, 06:47:00 pm »
This sounds completely unreasonable to me. The whole British road (and path) network is available to me when I go out for a ride. I need to assess continually whether a possible route is safe, legal and so on.

That doesn't change on an Audax, or because someone suggests a route for a leisure ride. I still need to make my own assessment. It's maybe different if the relevant authority is negligent in maintaining the surface, especially in a manner that I can't easily spot.

This way lies a world in which no-one will ever dare suggest or recommend anything to anyone. In fact, it may be too much of a risk just to talk to people, in case I mention anything that I like, and they take that as a recommendation.

Please do not take this post as implying that you should do, think or try anything that you were not intending before you read it. I'm off to become a hermit.

simonp

Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #33 on: 20 September, 2010, 07:20:40 pm »
More to the point, could an AUK org be sued for an error in a routesheet? Could he/she counter sue if a rider decides not to follow the routesheet? What's the deal here?

I think someone could sue - why do you think Auk provide public liability insurance?

The insurers may ask for the RA.  I presume from an insurance POV they would want to offer the RA as evidence that reasonable care had been taken to assess and mitigate any risks.


Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #34 on: 20 September, 2010, 07:39:35 pm »
If 50 people enter an event and only one of them has an incident, doesn't that say more about the rider than the route?
All roads are for public use and should be fit for cycling on. Is it really for an event organiser to say that a particular road is unfit for cycling along? If so, wouldn't it be usefull for them to inform the council or Highways Agency?
I really can't see how someone could successfully sue an event organiser if they had an accident while using a public road.
It'd seem more logical to me to persue the council or Highways Agency. I still wouldn't fancy my chances unless it was because of a road defect.
What about icy conditions? Surely it's down to riders whether they chose to cycle when it's icy. I chose not to, others chose to chance it.

Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #35 on: 20 September, 2010, 08:18:05 pm »
If we look at a long distance car event like this. Le Jog 2010 — Historic Endurance Rallying Organisation — Classic car events
We can see that they do 1,500 miles in three and a half days. Most people would view that as demanding in an old car, even with two drivers. Obviously the impact of an accident by one of the participants would be much greater than that of a cyclist, and we would expect the organisers to be vigilant. People do use the public roads for activities bordering on competition, ours is one such activity and it's probable that  in the event of an incident a conception of duty of care would derive from what organisers of similar styles of event do.
Forums like this are valuable in demonstrating that people do care about these issues.
The case of the forestry traffic and road surfaces on LEL is one example. A potential hazard was identified and measures taken to mitigate risks.
I do wonder if we will ever see a case of incitement to ride unfeasible distances.

P.S. a perusal of the Classic car LEJOG literature reminds me what stunning value Audax events are.
Quote
The Touring Trial runs alongside the main event and is a noncompetitive event travelling on good quality roads through some wonderful parts of the country. Whilst a gentler event, the Tour is still quite demanding; guaranteed to test the stamina and reliability of both car and crew and always attracts enthusiastic entrants. Calling at the same main controls as the Reliability Trial, but with no time penalties or tests, competitors who complete the Tour receive finishers’ medals and are eligible for the concourse and spirit of the rally awards.

The provisional route for 2010 has overnight halts in the Telford and Newcastle areas. You can expect the usual tough night route through Wales and plenty of mileage in the north and Scotland before breakfast on Tuesday prepares you for the final sting in the tail.

The entry fee of £2,250 for the Reliability Trial and £1,085 for the Classic Tour – held for the second year at 2008 prices includes the welcome dinner at Land’s End on Friday evening, the prize giving dinner in Wick on Tuesday evening, generous awards and accommodation on Saturday and Sunday nights.


Julian

  • samoture
Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #36 on: 20 September, 2010, 08:26:28 pm »
On taking legal advice the Bikehike man decided to withdraw from providing a public repository for routes prepared by others. Whilst looking at generating routesheets from GPX tracks, Simonp commented: "a bigger concern for me would be the legal issues.  Once you start providing prescribed routes, you better be damn sure they have been checked properly."

Perhaps naively perhaps, I just don't get it. You publish a route with the legend, 'use at your own risk' and that's it, isn't it?

More to the point, could an AUK org be sued for an error in a routesheet? Could he/she counter sue if a rider decides not to follow the routesheet? What's the deal here?

If you negligently published a routesheet which took riders onto a motorway for four miles and someone was injured then they could theoretically sue you.

However, remember The Helmet Case, where we discussed (endlessly) the concept of "contributory negligence?"  If a rider is daft enough to get onto a motorway then you would argue this is their own fault.

In practice I don't think anybody would sue anybody else for a bad route.  The UK courts wouldn't entertain it.  I think Bikehike are being paranoid.

Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #37 on: 20 September, 2010, 08:37:17 pm »
Calendar events do allow for a briefing at the start, so that a big group of riders don't pile into the first tricky downhill bend. Those hanging onto the fastest rider who knows the route can't pick up the subtleties from a routesheet they aren't looking at. I wonder if you could sue the idiot who takes you out because they are on the rivet, when they could be following a routesheet that gives them sensible advice, at a sensible pace.

Euan Uzami

Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #38 on: 20 September, 2010, 08:41:41 pm »
correct me if i'm wrong, but I don't think makers of sat navs get sued for things like this:
car in river


this:
van stuck

or this:
lorry stuck

so i somehow don't think auk are going to get sued even if the routesheet is wrong.

Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #39 on: 20 September, 2010, 08:46:45 pm »
I wonder if Sportive events, charity rides and CTT worry about being sued for chosing a particular road. Especially as these rides are often marshalled and the routes are compulsory for a completed ride.
AUK seems to worrying about it the most.
I just think it's unjustified paranoia. I'm not a clever lawyer though.

simonp

Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #40 on: 20 September, 2010, 09:26:16 pm »
On taking legal advice the Bikehike man decided to withdraw from providing a public repository for routes prepared by others. Whilst looking at generating routesheets from GPX tracks, Simonp commented: "a bigger concern for me would be the legal issues.  Once you start providing prescribed routes, you better be damn sure they have been checked properly."

Perhaps naively perhaps, I just don't get it. You publish a route with the legend, 'use at your own risk' and that's it, isn't it?

More to the point, could an AUK org be sued for an error in a routesheet? Could he/she counter sue if a rider decides not to follow the routesheet? What's the deal here?

If you negligently published a routesheet which took riders onto a motorway for four miles and someone was injured then they could theoretically sue you.

However, remember The Helmet Case, where we discussed (endlessly) the concept of "contributory negligence?"  If a rider is daft enough to get onto a motorway then you would argue this is their own fault.

In practice I don't think anybody would sue anybody else for a bad route.  The UK courts wouldn't entertain it.  I think Bikehike are being paranoid.

A rider has got onto a motorway on an Auk event before - because of a tricky junction not mentioned at all on the routesheet. :)

simonp

Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #41 on: 20 September, 2010, 09:37:56 pm »
Look at this from the old Mildenhall 300: Google Maps  Google Maps

Worrying about a bit of gravel?!

Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #42 on: 20 September, 2010, 11:16:17 pm »
Calendar events do allow for a briefing at the start, so that a big group of riders don't pile into the first tricky downhill bend. Those hanging onto the fastest rider who knows the route can't pick up the subtleties from a routesheet they aren't looking at. I wonder if you could sue the idiot who takes you out because they are on the rivet, when they could be following a routesheet that gives them sensible advice, at a sensible pace.
I just loathe all this, I'm sorry.

I would like the organiser to think about the tricky bend half a mile from the start, and whether a large group piling in is sensible. However, it's still the same situation as a club ride. Do we have to avoid all corners on club rides now, or are we going to accept that each of us must decide whether it's reasonable to ride in close formation on this road, when we can't see what hazards are coming?

And club members suing each other for bunch-riding errors?

Tell you what. Let's all get simulators and plug the Audax routes into those. Then none of this stuff will matter.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #43 on: 20 September, 2010, 11:21:25 pm »

And club members suing each other for bunch-riding errors?


This has happened.  :( :(

Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #44 on: 20 September, 2010, 11:36:15 pm »
I had a crash on the Stevenage cycleways once. Another cyclist shot out in front of me.

I was able to claim on my own household insurance for the bike I wrote off. No need to sue anyone.

Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #45 on: 21 September, 2010, 12:01:02 am »
...The fact that they're contiually requiring risk assesments for the same event, using the same route, year after year - would tend to point a finger at something not being fit for purpose...

A risk assessment needs to be regularly checked and updated if necessary. This is part of the process. An assessment that was made ten years ago and locked in a drawer for safe-keeping is as bad as none.

Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #46 on: 21 September, 2010, 12:39:24 am »
This thread is part of the duty of care process, we consider potential hazards and accept them or dismiss them acording to the concensus that emerges. And it's all documented.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #47 on: 21 September, 2010, 01:07:54 am »
Look at this from the old Mildenhall 300: Google Maps  Google Maps

Worrying about a bit of gravel?!

I'm the world's least skilled and most cautious off-roader, and those look like perfectly good roads to me.

Quote
This type of case means we will see more disclaimers and warnings, rather like almost every food packet telling you there may be a trace of nuts.
Warning: This route may contain traces of directions.
 ;D
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #48 on: 21 September, 2010, 08:20:19 am »
Look at this from the old Mildenhall 300: Google Maps  Google Maps

Worrying about a bit of gravel?!


Gravel & skog 'going up' doesn't count!




simonp

Re: Routesheets and The Law
« Reply #49 on: 21 September, 2010, 09:02:58 am »
Look at this from the old Mildenhall 300: Google Maps  Google Maps

Worrying about a bit of gravel?!


Gravel & skog 'going up' doesn't count!





That's a descent iirc.