Author Topic: Tubeless for Dummies (Read 194962 times)

Somnolent · « **Reply #75 on:** 24 July, 2015, 11:10:24 pm »

Quote from: sojournermike on 23 July, 2015, 01:58:17 am

Quote from: jsabine on 23 July, 2015, 01:53:18 am
So, um, Schwalbe Ones, or Sector 28s?

Can find both for under €40, which seems reasonable enough, albeit postage bumps it up a little.

Not sure who's tried both. I've only ridden the Schwalbes, and they're fine and dandy. Others may offer similar views on the Sectors.

I only went with Schwalbes because I've never had a bad experience with any of their other models (but have no experience of Hutchinson)
OTH i went for Stan's valves (stainless) rahter than Schwalbe (Aluminium) ones.

jsabine · « **Reply #76 on:** 25 July, 2015, 01:13:21 am »

Quote from: Somnolent on 24 July, 2015, 11:10:24 pm

Quote from: sojournermike on 23 July, 2015, 01:58:17 am
Quote from: jsabine on 23 July, 2015, 01:53:18 am
So, um, Schwalbe Ones, or Sector 28s?

Can find both for under €40, which seems reasonable enough, albeit postage bumps it up a little.

Not sure who's tried both. I've only ridden the Schwalbes, and they're fine and dandy. Others may offer similar views on the Sectors.

I only went with Schwalbes because I've never had a bad experience with any of their other models (but have no experience of Hutchinson)
OTH i went for Stan's valves (stainless) rahter than Schwalbe (Aluminium) ones.

I'm inclined to go for the Schwalbes because of Steve's use of them, but the Hutchinsons are c100g lighter per tyre ...

Last time I used Hutchinsons I came to dislike them because of poor grip in the wet: though that was c1998, I hold grudges.

LittleWheelsandBig · « **Reply #77 on:** 25 July, 2015, 01:30:17 am »

Hutchies were absolute crap in the 80s and 90s. They'll never get another cent from me, regardless of what they are like now. There is a pair of Ones at home waiting to go on a bike.

rafletcher · « **Reply #78 on:** 27 July, 2015, 09:20:50 am »

Right, I've been running my Schwalbe One tubeless for around 6 months now. Is it time to refresh the sealant? And does one just add more through the valve, or should one dismount the tyre and remove the (residue of) the old?

bikey-mikey · « **Reply #79 on:** 27 July, 2015, 10:41:01 am »

Quote from: rafletcher on 27 July, 2015, 09:20:50 am

Right, I've been running my Schwalbe One tubeless for around 6 months now. Is it time to refresh the sealant? And does one just add more through the valve, or should one dismount the tyre and remove the (residue of) the old?

The sealant stays liquid, and when you get a puncture it is expelled through the hole, turning solid as its temperature drops. A while ago in my early days of tubeless, my LBS changed a worn out tyre, and as they were also in the learning stage, they cut off a quarter of the old tyre and counted the tiny 'plugs' where the tyre had been penetrated and the liquid had sealed the hole. There were about SEVEN plugs, amazingly, in a quarter of a tyre. I imagine they chose the section of tyre that looked to have the most, but even so that's clearly a lot. And even if the other sections of the tyre had less, it's clear that LOTS of penetrations had self sealed, unnoticed by me. Each time this happens you ride on, but you lose some air and some sealant....

So if you have had a few 'unnoticed', you will also have lost liquid.

Also every time you pump more air into the tyre there is likely to be some sealant around the valve. When the valve opens as the pump pressure exceeds the tyre pressure you obviously get a flow of air into the tyre, but that agitates the liquid and some becomes gaseous, and then when your pump stroke finishes some of that mixture leaks back through the open valve into the pump. When you eventually disconnect the pump you get a tiny hiss as the higher pressure within the pump tube escapes, and in that 'hiss' there is usually a tiny amount of vaporised sealant. So you lose tiny amounts of sealant just about every time you pump up the tyre. (So it's good practice to set the valves on both wheels to the top when you 'park' the bike, to allow the fluid to drain away to the bottom of the tyre....)

Definitely time for more sealant after six months, I should say. Tyre might well be dry now....

I have a syringe bought from Stans No Tubes that allows you to put in more sealant provided you first remove the valve core, but you lose all the air, and you then have to reinflate the tyre, which is easy if it's sealed itself to the rim, but can be an issue if it pops off the rim and you have no compressor...

If it's sealed itself to the rim then no need to dismount. If the tyre pops off the rim, then remove it and scrape out the old solid stringy bits that had formed the seal. These stringy bits are no use once you break the seal.... After you put in new fluid and reinflate quite a bit of the fluid escapes around the tyre/rim, hardening and sealing as it goes, and that's the basis of the stringy stuff you find the NEXT time you take off the tyre....

rafletcher · « **Reply #80 on:** 27 July, 2015, 11:13:46 am »

Thanks B-M

I've the small bottle (50ml) with a pointed spout, so a half-full one of those through the valve core (assuming the bead stays seated).

Vs4b · « **Reply #81 on:** 28 July, 2015, 04:19:25 pm »

Idiot question... is it easy/possible to convert a "normal" rim to run tubeless (CXP33 and OpenPro if that matters)?? I was thinking you could with some special tape, a valve and a tubeless wheel but my LBS said that it wasn't possible. It is quite likely that they don't know they are talking about...

SoreTween · « **Reply #82 on:** 28 July, 2015, 04:33:29 pm »

Yes. No experience of, found that review tempting me though.

Mr Larrington · « **Reply #83 on:** 28 July, 2015, 06:22:19 pm »

Idiot question #2: do they come in sizes other than 700c?

Kevina9 · « **Reply #84 on:** 28 July, 2015, 10:55:13 pm »

According to notubes.com, Stan's standard tubeless kit will convert 21.5-24.5mm wide rims, in either 24" or 26", and also some narrow 29er rims (e.g. Bontrager 29er disc rims), using your current tyres, running at lower MTB pressure. There are other kits for different rim widths etc., including one for 700c cyclocross rims/tyres. Is that what you were asking? You only need tubeless-specific tyres if you need to run your tyres at road tyre pressures, AIUI. (I have no connection to the company, though I have just ordered the standard kit, to convert my Trek 29er to tubeless).

thing1 · « **Reply #85 on:** 29 July, 2015, 12:18:22 am »

Quote from: LittleWheelsandBig on 25 July, 2015, 01:30:17 am

Hutchies were absolute crap in the 80s and 90s. They'll never get another cent from me, regardless of what they are like now. There is a pair of Ones at home waiting to go on a bike.

Good to know.
our experience (on a not-so-heavy tandem, running 700x25, N=1..) is:
- Hutch Fusion 3 are no use - about 400 mile it split badly (at first a small cut that sealed, but then grew and grew until it wouldn't even hold an inner tube in).
- Schwalbe one even worse - less than 200 miles it got a cut that wouldn't seal at all (maybe just bad luck).
- Hutch Intensive pretty good. Got reasonable mileage from two of them. The third got a really nasty sidewall cut after about 300 miles which forced us to give up on tubeless completely as it was just getting silly in $$ spent. But this one seemed to have the best treadlife of the 3 models we tried.

For better or worse, we're giving Hutch Intensive a second try on PBP. I might have tried sector 28s, except for bad reasons. (I'd already ordered the Intensive before I even heard of them, and also I have a suspicion we won't even have clearance for them on the rear ... reviews say they're on the large side for 28mm, vs the Intensives run on the small side)

For geographic reasons, I've not ridden any of them in the wet very much...

LittleWheelsandBig · « **Reply #86 on:** 29 July, 2015, 04:51:57 am »

Probably there is nothing in common with previous Hutchies other than the branding. It is just an example of my irrational prejudices against brands. Having been repeatedly 'caught' in the past by a brand, they'll never collect another cent from me again, regardless of their current state. 'Good will' can be measured negatively.

I suppose that your experiences back up Schwalbe's advice when I asked about tubeless for tandems - 'Just say no'.

thing1 · « **Reply #87 on:** 30 July, 2015, 01:35:07 am »

Quote from: LittleWheelsandBig on 29 July, 2015, 04:51:57 am

I suppose that your experiences back up Schwalbe's advice when I asked about tubeless for tandems - 'Just say no'.

yah. I'd be interested what they'd say if a single 250lb cyclist asked for advice on tubeless.

LittleWheelsandBig · « **Reply #88 on:** 30 July, 2015, 02:06:27 am »

From memory, Schwalbe list maximum weights for the various tyres and widths. Anything above the maximum weight is not recommended/ covered, regardless for being a solo or tandem. The extra speed, force and temperature (rim brakes) particularly experienced by tandem tyres guide those limits according to their tech staff.

fuaran · « **Reply #89 on:** 30 July, 2015, 02:53:44 am »

Schwalbe have announced tubeless versions of the Marathon Almotion and Marathon Supreme. They should be better suited to heavier loads. But it seems still not available to buy yet.

rafletcher · « **Reply #90 on:** 30 July, 2015, 09:43:52 am »

Quote from: Vs4b on 28 July, 2015, 04:19:25 pm

Idiot question... is it easy/possible to convert a "normal" rim to run tubeless (CXP33 and OpenPro if that matters)?? I was thinking you could with some special tape, a valve and a tubeless wheel but my LBS said that it wasn't possible. It is quite likely that they don't know they are talking about...

It can be done more cheaply than the £50 kit, though it's a bit rim dependent I think. Certainly I've taped up (using 3 wraps of Stans yellow tape to build up the well) an H+ Son Archetype rim, fitted a tubeless valve and successfully fitted a tubeless Schwalbe One to it for my dynamo front wheel on the GP bike. Initial inflation can be a bit of a pain, but I managed with a decent (Topeak Joe Blow) track pump. Took a few days to properly seal - much bouncing and shaking of wheel over the first 2-3 days when re-inflating - but it's been fine since. In contrast I completely failed on a set of Aksium Ones - probably because the rim joint wasn't airtight.

thing1 · « **Reply #91 on:** 30 July, 2015, 11:18:55 pm »

Quote from: LittleWheelsandBig on 30 July, 2015, 02:06:27 am

From memory, Schwalbe list maximum weights for the various tyres and widths. Anything above the maximum weight is not recommended/ covered, regardless for being a solo or tandem.

heh heh!
http://www.schwalbe.com/en/road-reader/schwalbe-one.html
"Maximum load:70 kg"

Actually I'm not sure how to read that. Either that's all up weight, in which case (and, certainly allowing for the bike) means 95% of riders must be exceeding it (including Teethgrinder, given that rack pack). Or, it's per tyre, in which case Things+tandem is just within it

LittleWheelsandBig · « **Reply #92 on:** 30 July, 2015, 11:48:08 pm »

Per tyre I think but weight distribution is rear biased with about 60-65% on the rear of a solo, depending on rider position.

thing1 · « **Reply #93 on:** 31 July, 2015, 11:36:19 pm »

Quote from: LittleWheelsandBig on 30 July, 2015, 11:48:08 pm

Per tyre I think but weight distribution is rear biased with about 60-65% on the rear of a solo, depending on rider position.

Yeah I came to conclusion that that would be the only sensible interpretation.
Now I'm intrigued to see how Things+tandem weight distributions plays out. We have 2 sets of bathroom scales...

jsabine · « **Reply #94 on:** 01 August, 2015, 01:40:30 am »

Quote from: thing1 on 31 July, 2015, 11:36:19 pm

Now I'm intrigued to see how Things+tandem weight distributions plays out. We have 2 sets of bathroom scales...

TTIUWP

Ningishzidda · « **Reply #95 on:** 03 August, 2015, 10:53:25 am »

Quote from: LittleWheelsandBig on 30 July, 2015, 11:48:08 pm

Per tyre I think but weight distribution is rear biased with about 60-65% on the rear of a solo, depending on rider position.

When the unlucky cyclist is climbing a steep hill and the front goes weightless, that'll be the test.

Not only will ALL the vehicle's mass be on the rear tyre, but also the force involved in lifting the vehicle against gravity and the shear force of tyre/rim joint, with or without sealing gloop between ,,, BANG !

Some high performance cars suffer 'Tyre slip' on hard accels.

bikey-mikey · « **Reply #96 on:** 03 August, 2015, 01:01:26 pm »

Tubeless tyres ability to cope with chunks being gouged out of the tyre by bits of glass/ metal ??

I had a very nasty cut on the middle of my front Sector 28 a week or so ago. It looked like a small square hole, and I could predict it would fill up with tiny gravel pieces, but it hadn't actually gone right through as far as I could tell. I rode another 200 on it and the tyre seemed to hold its pressure afterwards. With two 200s due on 1st & 2nd Aug I went to pump the tyres back to my favourite pressure on the Thursday and found the front had gone decidedly soft. Blast I thought. I got them both to pressure and checked later and early Saturday morning before heading to the start, and both were fine.

I rode Saturday's 200 and no problems. I rode the first loop of Sunday's ride no problem. I had just started the second loop when I heard "phish phish phish phish phish" (etc.....) white stuff spraying out of the tyre. Blast... Stopped the bike and put thumb over the hole, which was the site of the previous gravel trap hole. It felt as if a piece of tread was hinging out. After a three minute wait I rode on for a couple of kms and "phish phish etc..... Stopped. Did same as before. Rode on.

I could have put on my spare clincher and a tube in five minutes, but chose to experiment. After SEVEN phish phish phish incidents the tyre stayed sealed and I finished another 60 kms of that loop. Though the tyre was very soft it still rolled well and I felt safe.

Before starting the third loop, bearing in mind my car and track pump were 20 metres away, I chose to put the tyre back up to pressure and the seal didn't blow out. However it did a few minutes later. I kept holding the flap of rubber in place and waiting a few minutes and then rode on. Once the tyre got down to roughly the previous softness it stayed sealed. After I finished the last 70 kms I checked and it was showing 40. PSI.

The moral of the story is threefold:-

Firstly the tyre can and will reseal itself from catastrophic failure but your finger might be needed as well, and it may be at a lower pressure and still run well.

Secondly the tyre will run at a much lower pressure than seems possible.

Thirdly it is probably a mistake to put the tyre back to normal pressure because that tends to lead to the higher pressure blowing out the repair

Of course with a gravel trap I should have replaced the tyre in the first place, but hey it got me round maybe three 200s and is still this morning at around 40 PSI....

Frank9755 · « **Reply #97 on:** 06 August, 2015, 10:02:18 pm »

I got a puncture tonight. I decided to take my PBP bike into work today and on the way home I became aware that my back tyre was soft.

I stopped and could feel it was down to about 30psi. I managed to ride home ok, keeping my weight forward when there were any bumps. The pressure didn't go down any further.

At home, I re-inflated the tyre, and immediately the seal blew. I found the cut. Not enormous, maybe 3mm long. I let air out and pumped it up again, but it blew once more. I kept doing this for a while. I even got it up to about 70 psi, but it kept blowing.

I couldn't decide whether just to leave it to set overnight or take it off and patch from the inside.

I'm doing a 200km ride tomorrow night, so I though I'd do the latter rather than risking it. If I had a new tyre I would just put that on, but I don't, so I took it off (didn't need levers) cleaned up inside. Saw one other puncture that had been sealed (coral). And I've put a patch on, which I'm leaving for half an hour to set properly. Then I'll try and set it up again with more sealant and see if I can inflate it.

My wheelbuilder fitted the tyres so it is the first time I've seen inside. Doesn't seem too scary at the moment. Fingers crossed it will work. Will take a spare clincher tomorrow night nevertheless.

jsabine · « **Reply #98 on:** 06 August, 2015, 10:19:19 pm »

Out of interest, what sealant were you both using?

Frank9755 · « **Reply #99 on:** 06 August, 2015, 11:05:35 pm »

Stan's (pretty sure - I didn't put it in myself).

I got mine refitted and inflated with no problems and it is staying at 75psi. Seems fixed ok. May get a new tyre for PBP though just to be on the safe side.