Style police question: how do non-aero brake cables go?

[ijsbrand]

Got invited to one of those Eroica events. For which I have the right old bikes, but not the right bike set up yet. Given that all right now have aero brake handles, and therefore use brake cables that are hidden underneath the handlebar tape.

Now, I know that with the old style brakes the cables ideally had to go over the handlebar, before they could travel towards the front or rear brake.

However, given that I want to set up the bike in the British way, by using the right lever for the front brake, and given that the brake I'll use is a Shimano 600, which attaches the cable on the left -- seen from behind -- do I need to bow the brake cable over the quill stem as well?

And how does the cable to the rear brake has to go then?

[Samuel D]

Style usually has its basis in function. Which is the functionally better way with your combination of components? It may not be reasonably possible to judge this without doing it one way or the other to see precisely how the cable sits.

[Brucey]

the 'correct' route varies with details of the bike design. 'Over the stem' is most usual for the brakes you have. Lots of photos from BITD will guide you without a lot of trial and error on your part.

BTW if you route the rear brake cable over the handlebars, I have found that it gradually wears the bars away where/if it touches.  This is (up to a point) just a cosmetic worry for the most part, but to my consternation I found that I had, over time, nearly worn through the reinforcing sleeve on one set of bars this way. Had the bars not had a reinforcing sleeve, I'd have been wearing through those, wholesale, instead...

If you route the rear brake cable under the bars instead, this seems to make  it more likely for the cable to kink near where it exits the lever, presumably because it is not so well supported.

cheers

[ijsbrand]

Ta so far.

Though it is hardly a punishment to look at old bicycle pictures, or pictures from old bicycles, it has turned out to be nearly impossible to find one with the set up I am looking for. Either the brakes are set up in the continental way, or centerpull brakes have been used, or the cable attaches to the other side of the brake than mine. 

[Brucey]

some continental pros ride with the front brake on the left, which means that (say) with old campag brakes they ought to have an exact mirror image of the setup you require...?

cheers

[Nick H.]

From memory I think my '80s Condor was set up this way by Condor when it was new: https://velo-orange.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/building-bike-from-frame-up-brake-lever.html  This way allows the cables to cross directly above the stem, which looks nice. There used to be a plastic clip to hold them together so that the x of the cables crossing was always centred above the stem.  It all looked very balanced. I'm fairly sure it was the norm. Edit: I forgot to mention that the cables never touch the bars or stem if you trim them the right length. This would surely be a big deal for the style police!

This is also the way my current bike is set up, with non-aero 7400 brake levers. I tie the cables together with cotton because I don't have the clip. I think that would be an appropriate look for Eroica, but it's just an opinion. You can get plastic clips of various designs https://www.velovitality.co.uk/products/non-aero-brake-cable-clip but maybe for Eroica alloy would be better?

[Torslanda]

If your brakes are the same orientation as the old Weinmann 500/730 sidepull* and your lever preference is a right hand front brake then it's easy.

*When viewed from the FRONT, the brake cable fastens on the right, the lever under your left hand, opposite when viewed from the saddle - obvs.

Cut your outer cable to give a graceful arc from lever to brake. Start with too much and work out how tight a curve you can make as you go. What you want to end up with is the cable rising vertically from the caliper, running behind the bar and not touching the bar or stem. If you have a bar bag the arc should be sufficient to clear it. When it comes to running the rear cable, the arc should mirror the shape & route of the front so the cables cross above the stem. Route the rear cable so the arc is supported by the front then use two tiny zip ties to make a loop around both outers so that one goes inside the other, then when you pull them tight they lock the two cables together.

If the brakes are the opposite hand (e.g. Campagnolo & later Shimano) then reversing the above works nicely. Potential problems with the rear cable running down the side of the crossbar, particularly on the left but not insurmountable.

[rogerzilla]

Whether they go over, or in front of, the bars depends on stem length to a large extent.  A long stem means they have to go over the bars for the best curve.

In the 1970s it was the fashion to put a 14cm stem on everything and damn the ergonomics, a bit like the way current pros always slam the A-stem onto the top bearing cap.  Actually, you rarely see current pros using the drops at all; they ride on the hoods all the time because the bars are so freakin' low.

[mzjo]

Sometimes for some odd and totally invisible reason the rear brake run can be very sensitive. I have a very old anonymous frame (50's or 60's) that has to have the rear brake cable to the rh lever, otherwise the cable inner snags in the outer (drop-bars only, with flat bars no problems).
Are Shimano 600 eligible for pre-87 events?

[Torslanda]

600 has been a thing since at least 1979 . . .

Oddly enough, DuraAce/600/Adamas AX is NOT eligible for Eroica style events bespite having been produced well before the cutoff date (1987). This was (I think) the first mass produced 'aero' group and falls foul of the 'rules' due to the concealed brake cables.

Pretty sure that if Campag had thought of it first the Stasi rulemakers wouldn't be so sniffy. YMMV.

[KM]

... Oddly enough, DuraAce/600/Adamas AX is NOT eligible for Eroica style events bespite having been produced well before the cutoff date (1987). This was (I think) the first mass produced 'aero' group and falls foul of the 'rules' due to the concealed brake cables...

Not so. The as new Shimano 600 outer cables on my 1986 bike:



Re the topic of this post I did try having the cables routed over the stem (that may even have been the original set up), but I include this image for info.

[ijsbrand]

Thank you all. Turns out the style question was a bit of a luxury problem. For now the main problem has become how to mount the Shimano 600 levers, as those are bolted down wit a nut, and my pipe wrench is not thin enough to turn that nut around within the given space.

Though I did manage to mount one lever. So I am in the worst position to be in right now. Halfway success, or halfway failure.

Changing the attachment bit for a contemporary one -- what is the proper word for those? -- doesn't work either, as those are just a bit wider, and do not allow any wriggle room on the other side, just where there is wriggle room needed.

[MartinC]

.................................Pretty sure that if Campag had thought of it first the Stasi rulemakers wouldn't be so sniffy. YMMV.

Hmmm. My 1986 racing bike with Delta brakes has concealed cables (and first generation Look black pedals).  IIRC for several years around then Campag brakes levers would run either concealed or flappy - you just popped the little cap out of the brake hood.  Running Delta brakes with flappy cables is tasteless in the extreme - the 'rules' are just the pedantry of the ignorant.

[Torslanda]

... Oddly enough, DuraAce/600/Adamas AX is NOT eligible for Eroica style events bespite having been produced well before the cutoff date (1987). This was (I think) the first mass produced 'aero' group and falls foul of the 'rules' due to the concealed brake cables...

Not so. The as new Shimano 600 outer cables on my 1986 bike:


Re the topic of this post I did try having the cables routed over the stem (that may even have been the original set up), but I include this image for info.

Due respect. Those aren't AX levers or brakes.

[Nick H.]

Cut a slot in the bolt so you can use a flat head screwdriver on it.

[mzjo]

By pipe wrench do you mean tube spanner? This is my go for tool for most tight spaces (eg big bb axle bolts ). Is this nut also too big for a suitable small (1/4" drive) socket on an extension bar? I have got some levers with this style of fitting but I can't remember who makes them and they have never posed a problem (they might be Campag). Decades ago I had some Mafac levers with this set-up and for those I had a tiny 2BA ring spanner (which I have long since lost!).

[hubner]

For now the main problem has become how to mount the Shimano 600 levers, as those are bolted down wit a nut, and my pipe wrench is not thin enough to turn that nut around within the given space.

An ordinary box spanner should work:



Campagnolo used 8mm, I would think other manufacturers used the same size.

The as new Shimano 600 outer cables on my 1986 bike:

That is the usual way if you've got Campagnolo style sidepulls with the cable bolt on the right (from the rider's point of view) and you want the right hand lever controlling the front brake, although the cables are too long.

I have the left hand lever controlling the front brake on my Campagnolo brakes, simply because the cables form a nice smooth curve and looks better.
The front cable goes behind the bars and to the right of the stem, the rear cable goes over the front cable and goes behind the bars and to left of the stem.

Whether they go over, or in front of, the bars depends on stem length to a large extent.  A long stem means they have to go over the bars for the best curve.

You would need a very short stem, like with almost zero forward extension, like 30mm, for the cable to go smoothly in front of the bars.

[Brucey]

re the brake clamp; is the bolt itself not a standard metric thread such as M6x1 or M5 x 0.8mm? If so an allen headed bolt can easily be substituted.

FWIW there were the various 'AX' groupsets (including 6300 and adamas etc) which had aero levers only and there was shimano 600 arabesque, and then (at the same time) shimano 600EX which morphed into 600 SIS. All of these fell under the umbrella of '6200' series IIRC. 7200 was non-aero, non-indexed Dura Ace.

7400 Dura Ace, 6200 (600SIS version) and 1050 groupsets were all launched with non-aero levers, but all soon gained them, ie. during the groupset life.

The non-aero levers in these groupsets remained available of course but the next versions of the various groupsets, (7400 8s, 6400, and 1055) used aero levers only, I think, and these in turn morphed into STIs in later versions of each groupset.

cheers

[ijsbrand]

An ordinary box spanner should work:

Your box spanner is my pipe wrench. And no, it did not fit. That is, luck had it that I possessed four of those old levers. And two simply could not be mounted, but the other two did. Another bit of luck: there seems to be no difference between a left lever or a right lever in those old Shimano 600 models -- except for the way they got scratched through time. So I now have a bike with a real right lever, and another one playing it is a left.

This has been educating, to say the least. Doubt I will be installing more clothes lines on a bike in the future though. Picture when there is daylight again.

[hubner]

Assuming the box spanner is  the right size for the nut, the only reason I can think of for it not fitting is its walls are too thick, if you've got the tools you might try grinding it down.

The ones in the pic appear to have thin walls and I would think those would fit. I usually use the Campagnlo 6m allen key/8mm box spanner combo tool, it's not particularly thin walled, there's a fair amount of space around the nut and my ordinary box spanner fits.

Re that 1987 and no aero levers rule; I think they chose 1987 because that's the last year of production for Super/Nuovo Record even though C-Record with aero levers had already been introduced in 1986, and Shimano,Modolo, Dia Compe had aero levers a few years  before that.

[ijsbrand]

I simply do not get its design. As is in this one, there is just about enough space left on the left to tighten the nut down by using my fingers. Once I force an 8 mm wrench onto it, there simply is no room for the wrench to turn.

[Brucey]

IIRC those levers were originally fitted with a special nut that was (IIRC) M6 threaded, but was longer than normal and had an 8mm top. That one looks like it is maybe 10mm, i.e. it is a standard M6 nut.

You could try a nut from a V-brake block; this will be M6 threaded but will have a 5mm AK fitting in the middle. 

Like this one;



Use a spacer if the nut isn't long enough.

cheers

[Brucey]

IIRC those levers were originally fitted with a special nut that was (IIRC) M6 threaded, but was longer than normal and had an 8mm top. That one looks like it is maybe 10mm, i.e. it is a standard M6 nut.

You could try a nut from a V-brake block; this will be M6 threaded but will have a 5mm AK fitting in the middle. 

Like this one;



Use a spacer if the nut isn't long enough.

If the nut is M5 threaded, you may be able to modify the nuts that are used to hold some IKEA type furniture together and use those instead.

cheers

[ijsbrand]

The result, for now. Thank you all.

[ijsbrand]

You could try a nut from a V-brake block; this will be M6 threaded but will have a 5mm AK fitting in the middle. 

That is a very neat workaround. Luckily, as said, it turned out I had four Shimano 600 levers, and two of those were not too old and skewed.