Author Topic: The durability of paint (on steel frames)  (Read 3286 times)

IanN

  • Voon
The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« on: 20 November, 2018, 06:30:10 pm »
I'm getting a steel frame painted fairly soon, so toddled down to Argos to look at the colour samples
I really like some of the flam colours, but I was told they aren't as durable as the plain colours. I think the coloured translucent coat chips off leaving the underlying silver.

Does anyone have experience of this? Or the opposite.
(silly question, probably)   :)
Thanks

Yes, I know powdercoat is pretty much bombproof

Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #1 on: 20 November, 2018, 06:49:46 pm »
I have had several frames resprayed by Argos since 1978, two of them this year.  One they did in 2006 they warned me that my choice of flamboyant finish would be a bit fragile.  They were right, it chipped quite easily and this was one of the frames I had redone this year.  Not because the flamboyant finish was too far gone but because I'd had  a repair job done which I 'd covered in Hammerite so the whole thing really needed redoing.  This is my hack so gets a fair bit of abuse and bad weather.  This time I stayed away from flamboyant and went for a very basic single colour, Ferrari Red.  I've been riding this on and off for 6 months now and I managed not to scratch it when assembling.  I think perhaps these old solid colours are more durable, and perhaps they harden over a couple of months.  The other frame they did for me was in a metallic Verde.  I managed to chip this by dropping a spanner when assembling it, but other than that it seems ok.   In 2005 I had  a touring frame done in Ice Blue.  This is seldom used but the only scratches are from my abuse.

The answer is - yes, the flamboyant finishes are a bit fragile.  The metallic ones may be a little as well.  Perhaps the paints from the RAL and BS charts are more robust.  It depends a bit on your expectations.  My flamboyant one lasted 10 years with a few chips, and I would still have it that way if it did not need a respray for other reasons, but since it was my hack the appearance was not that important.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #2 on: 20 November, 2018, 07:24:59 pm »
The powdercoat on my Surly has been rubbed away in places where mudguards touched the stays/forks, FYI.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #3 on: 20 November, 2018, 07:44:16 pm »
2 pack acrylic is the new way to give you a more durable finish.
Worth a look around at the other finishers who use these types of paint.

Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #4 on: 20 November, 2018, 08:30:23 pm »
I'm getting a steel frame painted fairly soon, so toddled down to Argos to look at the colour samples
I really like some of the flam colours, but I was told they aren't as durable as the plain colours. I think the coloured translucent coat chips off leaving the underlying silver.

Does anyone have experience of this? Or the opposite.
(silly question, probably)   :)
Thanks

Yes, I know powdercoat is pretty much bombproof

Hi Ian. In the last few years I have had two frames refinished - one as a Flamboyant Blue and the other was Stove Enamelled.
Now I don'[t know for certain but I do not think that the Stove Enamelled Finish is as good as I recall from back in the early 60's when I had my Hetchins (Curly) refinished by the same company.
I believe that it has something to do with paints now being water based,even the lacquer finish does not offer the same protection as it did back in the old days.

The Flamboyant Blue (Steve Goff) also does not appear as durable as those of years past and they are now using a Silver Base coat rather than the Satin Chrome of yesteryear.

The initial preparation of the frame is a vital component in the overall finish/result and as such I really do think that the frame manufactures original finish has got to be the most durable.

Both of my Bianchi frames had very very good paintwork,one was in Celeste (now sold on) and the other is now a flat-bar hybrid that is a real stunner/head-turner.
Your ears are your rear-end defenders,keep them free of clutter and possibly live longer.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #5 on: 20 November, 2018, 09:20:41 pm »
IME the Argos metallic finishes are the most fragile.  The flams and solid colours are tougher.  Flams are impossible to touch up well, but so are metallics - and flams have a lot of lacquer, both clear and tinted, between the silver base and the outside world.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

IanN

  • Voon
Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #6 on: 20 November, 2018, 09:54:15 pm »
Thanks all.
I'm not sure what the right balance is between durable and shiny
...ponder....     
I don't exactly cosset my bikes, or wash them much for that matter, which I could interpret as 'durable is better' or 'I won't care if it gets chipped'
 ;D

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #7 on: 21 November, 2018, 07:47:30 am »
Solid colours are best for rough use.  I don't personally like powdercoat at all: it's rarely done well and rust tends to run amok under it once you get a scratch, which you will at the dropouts.

The quick way to touch up small scratches on normal paint is a wax crayon of the same or slightly darker colour.  Catch it before any rust begins and it's good for years.  Car dealers use it for stonechips.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #8 on: 21 November, 2018, 01:22:00 pm »
Modern paint isn't as durable as older paints, as newer paints are more environmentally friendly.

You can still get less environmentally friendly paints but cost more, due to environmentally friendly disposal costs and greater costs to apply the paint in a safe way.

Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #9 on: 21 November, 2018, 01:57:57 pm »
Who do Mercian use for their paint jobs, or do they do it themselves? I've recently been thinking of having the Strada Speciale frame I have on order with them sprayed turquoise pearl (with white headtube /bands)...
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #10 on: 21 November, 2018, 05:13:09 pm »
Pretty sure Mercian's paint is in-house.

Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #11 on: 21 November, 2018, 05:21:37 pm »
BTW on my Hewitt Cheviot (which I think might actually have been painted by Argos) I have green flamboyant paint (a very dark British Racing Green type colour). The paint still looks remarkably good even after 10 years of almost daily use in all weathers (much more so than the paintjob on my wife's Ridgeback Voyage of similar vintage, which had multiple small paint chips, many of which showed light surface rust, though she's now had that shot-blasted and resprayed nicely in a burgundy colour by Bob Jackson). There are some chips on my Hewitt, though it only really chipped significantly when I dropped something hard and heavy on the frame, like my D-lock or big bunch of keys, and even then only down to the silver paint layer, not the bare metal frame. There isn't any visible signs of rust at all.
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #12 on: 21 November, 2018, 10:17:40 pm »
Pretty sure Mercian's paint is in-house.

It is. There are 2 sprayers last time I looked.

Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #13 on: 22 November, 2018, 05:39:38 pm »
Pretty sure Mercian's paint is in-house.

It is. There are 2 sprayers last time I looked.

Thanks for confirming, good to know!
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #14 on: 22 November, 2018, 09:50:00 pm »
Any paint job is only as good as the prep and the base coats are; standards here can vary enormously. Hence for example a cheap powder coat is liable to be terrible, lifting from the metal and bubbling up with corrosion.  However a good powder coat (with a proper base coat) can be much better.

However this discussion has not yet mentioned that paint chemistries vary enormously and with it the strength of the paint is likely to vary too.  There are a few types of finish that are (sensibly) only possible in a restricted range of chemistries and/or are only available from a few vendors and for these it is sensible to assume that most versions you will get are of a known/comparable toughness.  For example flamboyant finishes are not available everywhere and there are only a few paint types that lend themselves to this style.

Some of the best (toughest) paints are commonly used on mass-produced cars. However these materials are often difficult to work with, expensive to buy, and extremely toxic to boot (*).  Visual paint quality that is acceptable on a mass-produced car (eg 'orange peel' etc) is liable to be instantly rejected on a high end steel bike frame.  Also it is possible to add an extra 1/4lb of extra  paint and to muddy the clean lines of crisp lugwork with some paint types.

Regarding toxicity; solvent fumes are a hazard with many paints and many of the best (two-pack) paints are chock-full of isocyanates. These are toxic by inhalation and by skin contact (even with fumes/overspray). Folk who underestimated the toxicity of these paints have been known to keel over and die when using them.

At one stage both Raleigh and Dawes used some super quality paint that would shrug off all kinds of minor knocks without damage. However it is less likely that most resprays will be as tough as this; folk pay for looks not durability in very many cases.

I think it is worth asking a potential resprayer what materials they are actually using , specifically

- frame pretreatment; does it include a chemical treatment (eg phosphating) that will passivate any corrosion remaining at the bottom of pits (yes even on a shot blasted frame) and will give some protection to the insides of the tubes?
- what primers and undercoats are used?
- what topcoats are used?
- what clearcoats are used?

You may get some interesting answers to this. Probably they will use completely different materials for some finishes and thus you can make a choice between appearance and durability.

cheers

Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #15 on: 25 November, 2018, 10:09:26 pm »
Be worth having a chat with Colour-tech in Dartford.  Very high strength finish always for me.  All about the prep

CommuteTooFar

  • Inadequate Randonneur
Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #16 on: 27 November, 2018, 01:33:45 pm »
Argos has a MOD contract.  So if you are prepared to restrict yourself to the army palette; black, white, green and orange; you can get a relatively durable paint job

Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #17 on: 27 November, 2018, 01:58:56 pm »
Some of the best (toughest) paints are commonly used on mass-produced cars. However these materials are often difficult to work with, expensive to buy, and extremely toxic to boot (*). 

Cars are almost universally painted (at manufacture) with water based paints. Toxicity is low.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #18 on: 27 November, 2018, 02:45:57 pm »
Argos has a MOD contract.  So if you are prepared to restrict yourself to the army palette; black, white, green and orange; you can get a relatively durable paint job
Interesting. What do they paint for the MOD? I haven't seen anything there large enough to paint a tank or even a jeep! Perhaps this is connected with the Procurement Agency up the road in Filton?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #19 on: 27 November, 2018, 02:59:56 pm »
Argos has a MOD contract.  So if you are prepared to restrict yourself to the army palette; black, white, green and orange; you can get a relatively durable paint job
It's MOD spec 2-pack.  I'm not sure they still offer it.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #20 on: 28 November, 2018, 05:29:59 am »
Some of the best (toughest) paints are commonly used on mass-produced cars. However these materials are often difficult to work with, expensive to buy, and extremely toxic to boot (*). 

Cars are almost universally painted (at manufacture) with water based paints. Toxicity is low.

er, not quite. VOCs are lower, everything else can be the same; depending on the paint chemistry the stuff can be just as poisonous as non-water based paint.

cheers

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: The durability of paint (on steel frames)
« Reply #21 on: 28 November, 2018, 11:27:37 am »
The top lacquer coat is still solvent-based, anyway.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.