Author Topic: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!  (Read 9231 times)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #25 on: 17 July, 2013, 09:20:18 pm »
The NuVinci hub is rather lossy.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Euan Uzami

Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #26 on: 17 July, 2013, 09:26:54 pm »
Continue denying the advantages without having tried it for as long as you like, you're fighting a losing battle ;D

To be honest, Ben - you're fighting a losing battle against a bunch of luddites who think the bicycle reached the pinnacle of its design in about 1954  :P

Well, yeah - probably right there ;)

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #27 on: 17 July, 2013, 09:43:38 pm »
I'm far from a luddite, I just (like many on here) have no interest in racing, so see little benefit in racing-oriented electronic shifting.

And I'm not holding my breath for manufacturers to start producing electronic systems for other purposes, which is a shame, because there *are* advantages which are going to be worthwhile to some of the people some of the time.

valkyrie

  • Look at the state of your face!
    • West Lothian Clarion
Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #28 on: 17 July, 2013, 09:46:20 pm »
I've not got electronic gears and I don't particularly want them. But bike gears is just the latest in a long list of things where mechatronic systems have replaced purely mechanical systems. Often these started off as very expensive options but the economies of scale that you get with electronics are generally greater than the ones you can achieve when manufacturing and assembling complicated and precise mechanical systems.

Back in the late 70's early 80's if a car had fuel injection it was a real big deal for high performance cars only. Who'd want a carb fed engine now? In 20 years time, when Shimano Tourney gears are electronic, purely mechanical gears will be made in limited quantities for collectors and enthusiasts, like mechanical watches are now.
World Class Excuses for Piss-Poor Performances

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #29 on: 17 July, 2013, 09:51:34 pm »
Actually, that's an interesting point.

At a basic level, it's just a linear actuator, a sensor or two, some buttons, a power source and a microcontroller.  Assuming comparable manufacturing costs due to economies of scale, it doesn't seem outside the realms of possibility that a Tourney-level electronic groupset would work better for longer than a mechanical one, purely because it could automatically recalibrate itself to compensate for the slop and wear in cheap mechanical parts. 

Of course it would be unserviceable throw-away sealed units, but that's what people are used to these days, and is standard treatment for low end bikes as a whole.  People running Tourney groupsets generally don't know how to adjust gears properly anyway, so automating that would be a major advantage.

Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #30 on: 17 July, 2013, 10:07:32 pm »
I've come to the conclusion that Di2/eps solves a problem I haven't got, and at great expense.

A gear cable is £2.
You're so wrong, it rules. ;) Don't knock it till you've tried it.
A gear cable gets bunged up with water and mud and doesn't change up, even a gore fully sealed one after a bit.
But the front shifting of di2 really is very very smooth. I thought the blurb about the electronics timing the change to coincide with the chain going over the ramps and pins was bollocks but it obviously isn't.

I have tried it

Its good...I know that. That isn't the point I'm making really. I don't really have an issue with cable derailleurs. If they are well set up they work fine, but I don't doubt that electronic is easier in the long run. Problem is it is pretty expensive, and I don't imagine it is going to prove to have a long life.

Euan Uzami

Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #31 on: 17 July, 2013, 10:21:54 pm »
Why don't you think it will have a long life?

Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #32 on: 17 July, 2013, 10:32:37 pm »
Lots more to go wrong mechanically and electronically.

Its the replacement cost of the parts that puts me off

Euan Uzami

Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #33 on: 17 July, 2013, 10:48:03 pm »
My problem is I get the urge to replace a component simply when it is not working 100% perfectly, rather than tolerate a minor annoyance and only replace it when it is actually broken, which it seems a lot of cyclists do.
I think di2 will be more black and white than that, so I think it would suit me.  It wouldn't suit everybody, though - I admit.
I'm quite rich - I don't mind *spending* money on replacing something when it genuinely needs replacing, but I can't stand *wasting* money (or time), which cable gears tempts me to do.

The way I see it cable derailleurs just don't work for me, so di2 is a necessity, not just a luxury. 

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #34 on: 17 July, 2013, 10:51:14 pm »
At the moment it is expensive. So is the Dura Ace mechanical groupset. In many ways the system is more robust than mechanical systems - I know more or less the lifespan of mechs on my commuter bike - a bike where it is not possible to give it the TLC at 8.45 am after a wet ride in that I would give a race bike. It has to survive in poor conditions.

It is an interesting development and one which could make it much easier, especially when coupled with electric assist bikes, for those who are less than fully physically competent. (And having a second set of shifters on the ends of my tri-bars would be nice)
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Tim Hall

  • Victoria is my queen
Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #35 on: 17 July, 2013, 10:53:47 pm »
Continue denying the advantages without having tried it for as long as you like, you're fighting a losing battle ;D

To be honest, Ben - you're fighting a losing battle against a bunch of luddites who think the bicycle reached the pinnacle of its design in about 1954  :P

Well, yeah - probably right there ;)


Ahem. Surely you're 20 years out. 531 was invented in 1934. Everything else is just waffle.
There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
"overhaul" it, or you can ride it.  (Jerome K Jerome)

Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #36 on: 17 July, 2013, 11:01:33 pm »
Continue denying the advantages without having tried it for as long as you like, you're fighting a losing battle ;D

To be honest, Ben - you're fighting a losing battle against a bunch of luddites who think the bicycle reached the pinnacle of its design in about 1954  :P

Well, yeah - probably right there ;)


Ahem. Surely you're 20 years out. 531 was invented in 1934. Everything else is just waffle.

Nah, you're waaay out as well. Everything after the 1880s/1890s, when the safety bicycle with pneumatic tyres and chain drive came about, is just waffle.  :demon:

 ;)
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Rhys W

  • I'm single, bilingual
    • Cardiff Ajax
Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #37 on: 17 July, 2013, 11:43:40 pm »
It is an interesting development and one which could make it much easier, especially when coupled with electric assist bikes, for those who are less than fully physically competent.

Let's face it - when you're getting a battery and electric motors to change gear for you, you're already riding an electrical assist bike. Slippery slope.  :demon:

contango

  • NB have not grown beard since photo was taken
  • The Fat And The Furious
Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #38 on: 18 July, 2013, 12:17:10 am »
But the front shifting of di2 really is very very smooth. I thought the blurb about the electronics timing the change to coincide with the chain going over the ramps and pins was bollocks but it obviously isn't.

Okay, points to them for that.

Also for eliminating the trimming of the front shifter problem.

Bung a strain gauge in there and you could delay shifting until the load eases up sufficiently.

All good stuff, but marginal gains at best.
Oh yeah , and the chain NEVER rubs the front mech 8)

Continue denying the advantages without having tried it for as long as you like, you're fighting a losing battle ;D

I'm sure there are advantages. It's just that to a fat rider like me the advantages don't justify the price tag.
Always carry a small flask of whisky in case of snakebite. And, furthermore, always carry a small snake.

Euan Uzami

Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #39 on: 18 July, 2013, 09:14:15 am »
It is an interesting development and one which could make it much easier, especially when coupled with electric assist bikes, for those who are less than fully physically competent.

Let's face it - when you're getting a battery and electric motors to change gear for you, you're already riding an electrical assist bike. Slippery slope.  :demon:
Fair enough, as long as it lasts 4 figures of km and the battery isn't that heavy,I don't care if it is

Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #40 on: 18 July, 2013, 09:17:58 am »
One place where I would pay good money for it (assuming good enough weather proofing) is my Rohloff-equipped MTB. I can live with grip shift as the price to be paid for the other advantages, but I'd Really, really like to go back to trigger shifters if I could. The nature of the Rohloff shifting mechanism makes it look like an ideal candidate for Eshifting to me. Unfortunately, I imagine that the market size wouldn't justify anybody doing the development work...

Life is too important to be taken seriously.

Euan Uzami

Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #41 on: 18 July, 2013, 09:20:03 am »
But the front shifting of di2 really is very very smooth. I thought the blurb about the electronics timing the change to coincide with the chain going over the ramps and pins was bollocks but it obviously isn't.

Okay, points to them for that.

Also for eliminating the trimming of the front shifter problem.

Bung a strain gauge in there and you could delay shifting until the load eases up sufficiently.

All good stuff, but marginal gains at best.
Oh yeah , and the chain NEVER rubs the front mech 8)

Continue denying the advantages without having tried it for as long as you like, you're fighting a losing battle ;D

I'm sure there are advantages. It's just that to a fat rider like me the advantages don't justify the price tag.
Fair point it's s alright for me to say when I'm pretty much free to spend as much of my disposable income as I like on bikes, but I would like to make the point that the advantages are not just shaving 0.1s off your time to get ahead of a competitor, but that it's harder to get a gear change wrong when you're lazy and tired and thus makes a ride much more satisfying.
It's up to the individual how much that's worth to them, and what else they've got to spend that money on.

Euan Uzami

Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #42 on: 18 July, 2013, 09:26:21 am »
One place where I would pay good money for it (assuming good enough weather proofing) is my Rohloff-equipped MTB. I can live with grip shift as the price to be paid for the other advantages, but I'd Really, really like to go back to trigger shifters if I could. The nature of the Rohloff shifting mechanism makes it look like an ideal candidate for Eshifting to me. Unfortunately, I imagine that the market size wouldn't justify anybody doing the development work...
Wouldn't be that hard to make, all you'd need is a motor that rotates a certain number of degrees each time, or until it goes past resistance. Connect that to your 8mm nut and you're there

Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #43 on: 18 July, 2013, 09:39:20 am »
Wouldn't be that hard to make, all you'd need is a motor that rotates a certain number of degrees each time, or until it goes past resistance. Connect that to your 8mm nut and you're there

Bi-directional, too, of course.

Yeah, like I say, in principle it's an ideal candidate. But there are enough complicating factors (eg water-proofing; my bike frequently goes through BB depth liquid mud on winter after-work rides) to make it a non-starter as a cobbled-together-at-home project, even if I had the time. And I reckon the Market is too limited to justify a third party manufacturer developing something.

 Now, if Rohloff themselves were to think about it... As Kim mentioned, up thread, multi-location shifting and special shifters for disabled users would be other good applications. And Rohloff are probably proportionately over represented in recumbents, hand cycles, etc, so it would be a good marketing tool for them. I wonder if they read this forum.  ;)

I've also pondered hydraulic shifting...
Life is too important to be taken seriously.

Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #44 on: 18 July, 2013, 09:42:38 am »
From an aesthetics point of view. It's way too early to buy into di2. The derailleurs look pig ugly, like the designers were too lazy to think of a radical new design so bolted on some plastic boxes to make the derailleurs look bulky.

When in the world of cable gears you have a beautiful work of art in the Dura ace 9000 series.

I think electronic will be the way to go, but ill wait about 5 years when they find a way to make it look pretty.

Lets be honest, that's all that matters right?

Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #45 on: 18 July, 2013, 09:49:27 am »
I've come to the conclusion that Di2/eps solves a problem I haven't got, and at great expense.

A gear cable is £2.
You're so wrong, it rules. ;) Don't knock it till you've tried it.
A gear cable gets bunged up with water and mud and doesn't change up, even a gore fully sealed one after a bit.

Would Di2/eps work properly after you'd ridden through crossbar-deep water?

Cables do.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #46 on: 18 July, 2013, 10:00:46 am »
Would Di2/eps work properly after you'd ridden through crossbar-deep water?

Cables do.

Yes. Although I don't know what sort of idiot would ride a road bike through crossbar-deep water though  :P
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #47 on: 18 July, 2013, 10:03:37 am »
Interesting (obvious) point that Kim raises. Electronic shifting is introduced as an expensive tech for racing, as are most new bike technologies - tubeless tyres, disc brakes, carbon fibre, aluminium, derailleur gears, suspension, etc back to 1880 - but end up mass market, where some are more appropriate and some are bastardised. Tubeless tyres on a one-piece wheel with disc brakes might be perfect for commuters and utility riders, in ten years.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #48 on: 18 July, 2013, 10:11:25 am »
Would Di2/eps work properly after you'd ridden through crossbar-deep water?

Cables do.

Yes. Although I don't know what sort of idiot would ride a road bike through crossbar-deep water though  :P

1) I don't believe it would (anyone here tried it? test videos showing immersion under pressure.)
2) The sort of idiot who wants to get home - sometimes there isn't an option.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!
« Reply #49 on: 18 July, 2013, 10:15:45 am »
1) I don't believe it would

And here lies the problem with this thread - most people are just making assumptions without any first or even second hand experience of electronic shifting. I just thought I'd carry that on  :P
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!