Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: Defblade on 08 January, 2021, 09:53:16 pm
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I'm sure I've seen some recommendations for decent wheelbuilders/suppliers on here, but blowed if I can find them with the search at the moment!
I'm after a few pointers for places that can help me balance the Venn diagram of weight/strength/sexiness/price (as little as possible/carry me around at 95kg with no problems/good looking, perhaps some colour bling/in the hundreds maybe, not thousands...). I'm aware these things are somewhat mutually exclusive, but there must be a little overlap somewhere ;)
Following discovering a decent pair of tyres made more difference to my old bike than everything else I've ever done to it, I suspect that a decent pair of hoops would be a good thing to investigate for my next bike. I'm beginning to seriously consider building one, as pretty much every bike I look at leaves me feeling I'd "just" want to upgrade this or that, so why not just start with what I want, instead of paying for bits I'm going to swap out?
Thanks in advance folks :)
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Your local bike shop might be a start. There is a lot of woo about when it comes to wheelbuilders and very expensive woo at that.
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Spa, Malcolm at CycleClinic or Mike Conway of 23mm.co.Uk and otp all have decent reputations. Or local shop as HF says. It’s not rocket science, care and a bit of practice.
I could tell you what I’d likely build, but you may have a different view of sexiness and bling. Plus, rim or disc brakes.
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Harry Rowland ?? (http://www.harryrowland.co.uk/)
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The Cycle Clinic, Suffolk. I've had two pairs of wheels from them, rim brake and disc wheelset. Compared to OEM wheels they're far smoother running and appear absolutely true. Can't compare with other contemporary hand-built wheels.
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Ryan builds wheels in Bristol. Never actually used him but very good reputation and I did go on a wheel building course he ran when he was working with a local cycling co-op ... good guy and he has a very good reputation in this area https://www.ryanbuildswheels.co.uk/product-category/road-wheels/
As mentioned above Mike Conway of 23mm. I have used Mike and can recommend https://23mm.co.uk/
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Learning to build your own wheels is very satisfying. Mine have always been good enough - they don't fall apart or otherwise fail, and they don't appear flex unduly. And I'm quite heavy. I think Flatus has a point for that reason (though I could be said to have a vested interest!)
That said, if bike weight is important, I suspect that factory wheels will tend to be lighter than hand-built, whoever the builder might be.
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I think any experienced wheelbuilder with a good local or national reputation will build you decent wheels, I'd add SJS and Paul Hewitt to the list. Or if you have the time and fancy learning something new, building your own is worth considering. The only wheels I've been disappointed with were from a local bike shop, they'd built a decent reputation, but then the builder who'd gained that reputation left.
As a heavier rider, my diagram is very much weighted towards strength and reliability. The differences a lighter rider might experience between wheels seems to be lost by the time they're built well enough to suit me. That's my experience anyway, I notice a huge difference between tyres and none between wheels. Strong doesn't have to be ugly though, I really like my H Plus Son Archetype rims.
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Thanks for the pointers everyone.
I may end up with factory built, if I can get my head around the options a bit.
For disc, if it matters... but I'm sure a decent builder/manufacturer will be able to build either.
I do true my own wheels, and find it very satisfying and strangely relaxing, but building them is a couple of cuts above, and I don't fancy learning just to (probably) do it the once.
My LBS will almost certainly try and sell me whatever they have in stock rather than what I'm asking for...
@PaulH: as I say, I'm no racing whippet, interesting your comment on tyres vs wheels though; I have been assuming that the gains would follow on; especially as large numbers of bike reviews I've been reading say something along the lines of "...and it would really come alive/improve/release its potential with better wheels..." or similar.
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The Cycle Clinic, Suffolk. I've had two pairs of wheels from them, rim brake and disc wheelset. Compared to OEM wheels they're far smoother running and appear absolutely true. Can't compare with other contemporary hand-built wheels.
Seconded. And Malcolm is always entertaining to talk to - or ride with. As long as you're not a Brexiteer!
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Another vote here for Paul Hewitt.
I did try to put some business to my LBS and then another (not so) LBS and, despite getting "good" components, the end results were disappointing and short lived.
These "other pairs" of wheels ended up with the spokes and rims being scrapped and the hubs used by Hewitt to make new wheels.
No problems since.
ETA: all my wheels are disc braked. I think I have 5 pairs (all from Hewitt). 3 of them are on bikes.......
ETA 2: I also bought my GF also has a set of Hewitt built disc wheels. She's worth it.
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Thanks for the pointers everyone.
I may end up with factory built, if I can get my head around the options a bit.
For disc, if it matters... but I'm sure a decent builder/manufacturer will be able to build either.
I do true my own wheels, and find it very satisfying and strangely relaxing, but building them is a couple of cuts above, and I don't fancy learning just to (probably) do it the once.
My LBS will almost certainly try and sell me whatever they have in stock rather than what I'm asking for...
@PaulH: as I say, I'm no racing whippet, interesting your comment on tyres vs wheels though; I have been assuming that the gains would follow on; especially as large numbers of bike reviews I've been reading say something along the lines of "...and it would really come alive/improve/release its potential with better wheels..." or similar.
As HF says upthread, there’s a lot of very expensive nonsense talked about wheels - particularly by the magazines. They exist to sell...
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I have built wheels for about 10 years now, at some point I was building many of them, now only build for myself and a few friends and colleagues.
IME you want a pair of handbuilt wheels if you don't fit the stereotype of skinny rider who wants to bag KOM on Strava... so if you are heavy, if you want to ride long distance, if you want to do cycle touring... for all these reasons, the reliability of hand built wheels trumps and factory wheel out there.
There is also a market for reasonably priced carbon wheels, which is not catered for by Mavic, Fulcrum and Co. and it is catered for by some builders, like Malcolm above, as well as Wheelsmith in Scotland, JRA in Sheffield and a number of others.
BUT, if you are 65 kg and only ride 2,000 miles per year chasing KOM, then you are better off getting a pair of Fulcrum or Mavic or whatever is on offer at the time
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FWIW differences in tyres are usually a lot more important than the difference in wheels (between ostensibly 'similar' wheelsets.
In addition to weight/strength /sexiness you may want to add 'stiffness' and 'repairability' into the equation. The latter two points mitigate against 'wheels without enough spokes in' and a lot of 'wheels that are built in a factory somewhere' respectively.
Struggling to find a spoke key that fits the spokes at all, then finding that they seize up (so can't be adjusted) and/or cost £5-£10 each and are virtually impossible to obtain only a short time after you bought the wheels, or that rims are similarly not available, or available and stupidly expensive.... all these things are depressingly commonplace.
BTW carbon rims can offer aero advantages, but another big difference with these rims is often the noise they make; some people love it, others just find it annoying.
You don't say what kind of riding you do, or what kind of bike you have, but more than one wheelset is not a bad thing to have; you can have a set of 'bling' wheels, fitted with insubstantial tyres etc for sunny days when it makes a difference and the rest of the time use something rather more staid and practical.
cheers
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Bricey’s point about repair ability is well made. I re-rimmed a pair of DuraAce C24 wheels for a friend that broke a spokes front and rear, with consequent twisting. I used different deeper and heavier rims and new spokes. All for less than the cost of one new rim from Shimano.
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FWIW differences in tyres are usually a lot more important than the difference in wheels (between ostensibly 'similar' wheelsets.
In addition to weight/strength /sexiness you may want to add 'stiffness' and 'repairability' into the equation. The latter two points mitigate against 'wheels without enough spokes in' and a lot of 'wheels that are built in a factory somewhere' respectively.
Struggling to find a spoke key that fits the spokes at all, then finding that they seize up (so can't be adjusted) and/or cost £5-£10 each and are virtually impossible to obtain only a short time after you bought the wheels, or that rims are similarly not available, or available and stupidly expensive.... all these things are depressingly commonplace.
BTW carbon rims can offer aero advantages, but another big difference with these rims is often the noise they make; some people love it, others just find it annoying.
You don't say what kind of riding you do, or what kind of bike you have, but more than one wheelset is not a bad thing to have; you can have a set of 'bling' wheels, fitted with insubstantial tyres etc for sunny days when it makes a difference and the rest of the time use something rather more staid and practical.
cheers
I have staid and practical already; it has an old Mavic MA2 on the front, and a recently bought Mavic something-or-other (£100ish from SJS) on the back when I moved it up to 8 speed. The nipples on the original set of MA2s are still all fine, 20-odd years down the road :)
These wheels will be on a sunny-days-only bike; I ride for enjoyment, not to chase Strava times... but I still want my bling to just keep working with the odd bit of grease chucked on the bearings now and again.
I like the look of few spokes... but although I'm down to 15 stone now, there's no way (weigh?) I've got more than 1/2 a stone to go below that, short of chopping off limbs... which would make the riding more difficult :D So I'm trying to be realistic, or at least find out where realistic is.
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I'm after a few pointers for places that can help me balance the Venn diagram of weight/strength/sexiness/price (as little as possible/carry me around at 95kg with no problems/good looking, perhaps some colour bling/in the hundreds maybe, not thousands...). I'm aware these things are somewhat mutually exclusive, but there must be a little overlap somewhere .
As others have said, talk to (or perhaps “listen to” is more appropriate :)) Malcolm at the Cycleclinic. He’ll probably suggest tubeless too, being an advocate - being able to run at lower pressures helps with larger rider comfort - but, although he is opinionated (and quite long winded) he does know his stuff. And he’ll tailor his offering to your budget.
Alternatively Mike Conway OTP.
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My opinion on good (ie £600+) factory wheelsets: You will never find a set of handbuilt, conventionally spoked, wheels that comes close to riding pleasure (if you want stiff wheels that descend and corner on rails)
But...they are essentially vf expensive consumables. So bear that in mind.
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I've previously had a wheelset from DCR wheels who is often mentioned when wheel builder recommendations are asked for. I've covered just over 8000 miles on the set I have with no issue.
His website is not as slick as some but there is a lot of info and good advice on there if you take the time to explore it.
DCR wheels (https://dcrwheels.co.uk/)
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If you speak to wheelbuilders such as some of those mentioned on this thread, they will often say that a big part of their skill is knowing which components to build with. For example, Malcolm at CycleClinic built me a set, and he emphasised that he only builds with rims that he knows to be really stiff. One of these guys would only build a set for you that they were sure was fine for your weight and intended usage.
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My opinion on good (ie £600+) factory wheelsets: You will never find a set of handbuilt, conventionally spoked, wheels that comes close to riding pleasure (if you want stiff wheels that descend and corner on rails)
But...they are essentially vf expensive consumables. So bear that in mind.
I can’t comment on whether the first point is correct - I’ve not purchased a very expensive set of factory wheels (note Hunt, Prime etc are not factory wheels). However, it seems to be a crying shame that a wheelset with DuraAce hubs is a consumable - the hubs are marvellous and can last and last with a little bit of care, but because the (C24) rims are not really stiff enough for big fellas and they are under-spoked they become disposable. C24 rims are actually quite interesting and clever, but they are built to be very light abs they are very expensive. Rebuilding with different rims needs a bit of thought from the builder and always ends up with a heavier wheel - hence it’s not commercially viable and brilliant components get thrown away. Not clever environmentally and I feel uncomfortable with it - hence I made the effort to save a couple of sets.
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I was thinking more in terms of trying to re-rim a factory wheel after a few years and finding that the requisite parts are no longer available.
Your point doesn't stand however for Zipp wheels. Their hubs are shite.
Re: Hunt wheels...they are pretty shite too. Heavily marketed generic chinese/taiwanese kit. Wheel build quality is apparently not great.
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I was thinking more in terms of trying to re-rim a factory wheel after a few years and finding that the requisite parts are no longer available.
Your point doesn't stand however for Zipp wheels. Their hubs are shite.
Re: Hunt wheels...they are pretty shite too. Heavily marketed generic chinese/taiwanese kit. Wheel build quality is apparently not great.
Yep, quite a lot of them use disposable hubs too. Hunt, well there’s a thread in reviews that confirms everything I ever thought about them - expensive way to buy poorly built generic components.
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I have 3 sets of Hunt wheels, all different, and all alloy rims. I'm very happy with them. I have a couple of sets of rather more expensive 'factory' (Vision) carbon wheels, and I'm less impressed with them, but after some fettling they're fine. I've got some older factory alloy wheels which have performed well, but now - due to the frightening potential repair costs - I wonder what I was thinking when I bought them, eg Fulcrum Racing Zero. But I do like a bit of bling.
Of all the wheels I have, the ones that have impressed most in terms of feel, longevity, and reliability are a set of 2004 Mavic Ksyrium Elites which came with a Cannondale CAAD 8 R2000 which long since bit the dust (crash, not failure). They are now doing anonymous (de-stickered) duty on a Holdsworth Cyclone steel frame. I have to say I'm very fond of them!
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Ryan builds wheels in Bristol. Never actually used him but very good reputation and I did go on a wheel building course he ran when he was working with a local cycling co-op ... good guy and he has a very good reputation in this area https://www.ryanbuildswheels.co.uk/product-category/road-wheels/
As mentioned above Mike Conway of 23mm. I have used Mike and can recommend https://23mm.co.uk/
+1 for Ryan and the team in Bristol. Top bloke. Top wheels and set up as a co-op. He's my go to for spokes when I'm building wheels (www.spokesbyryan.co.uk (http://www.spokesbyryan.co.uk)).
Having endured the frustration and cost of trying to repair factory built wheels, I vowed never again many years ago.
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General question, not strictly related to the OP, so apologies.
Whilst I've been on my bike for a while I've only just started to dabble in wheels.
I see the term 'factory built wheels' all the time, but I have no idea what they are, how to recognise them, what's different about them as compared to hand built wheels, other than the obvious (made in a factory, but even that is pretty nebulous).
Anyone ?
Many thanks.
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When I use the term 'factory wheels' I am refering to wheels with non-proprietory parts, so for example specific hub/spoke combinations, non-standard spokes.
I don't really mean things like Hunt wheels, which are just off the shelf budget chinese/taiwanese hubs and rims, laced up with standard spokes.
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General question, not strictly related to the OP, so apologies.
Whilst I've been on my bike for a while I've only just started to dabble in wheels.
I see the term 'factory built wheels' all the time, but I have no idea what they are, how to recognise them, what's different about them as compared to hand built wheels, other than the obvious (made in a factory, but even that is pretty nebulous).
Anyone ?
Many thanks.
Mavic Ksyriums are probably the best known, but all the big manufacturers do them and have done for decades. Some swear by them, others swear at them. They do get around the problem of finding a half decent wheelbuilder.
Flatus' point about them being consumables certainly applies to Ksyriums: the alu spokes tend to permanently corrode into the aluminium rim, so repairs are difficult. And the freehub "bearing" is a nylon bushing which develops the "Mavic howl" after a while (it's actually more like a cow mooing). Oiling it shuts it up for a while.
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I see the term 'factory built wheels' all the time, but I have no idea what they are, how to recognise them, what's different about them as compared to hand built wheels, other than the obvious (made in a factory, but even that is pretty nebulous).
I'm not sure there's a formal definition, and there are probably grey areas over which wheels are which - I've got some old Tecno ones that are pretty borderline. But, in general terms, traditional wheels are built up from hubs, spokes and rims that may be sourced separately, from different manufacturers, and are quite interchangeable. The actual building may, of course, vary from hand-built by a specialist such as those mentioned here, to mass production in a factory.
"Factory" wheels still usually have hubs, spokes and rims. However, they are designed as single entities, so that the rims and spokes are typically made just for that particular wheel or range of wheels. They may use very small numbers of spokes (perhaps 16, where hand-built wheels are considered ultra-light at 24), and unique lacing patterns. If a spoke breaks, then in many cases (but not all), you're not necessarily just intended to replace it. It may be a case of return to the factory for repair, or replace the wheel. Spokes may screw into the hub or use other proprietary fitting methods, whereas traditional wheels have spokes with bends and heads, that fit into standard drilled holes in the hub flanges.
Factory wheels tend to be lighter than traditional ones, but may not be as durable, nor (see above) as easy to maintain. They can, in some cases, also be phenomenally expensive. So you takes your choice.
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Thanks all. drossall's explanation clears this up for me.
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Thanks all. drossall's explanation clears this up for me.
Yes, very clear...
In a nutshell, it is off the shelf generic components that can be mixed and matched, versus proprietary components that can only be used for that specific wheel, of that specific manufacturer and often even of that specific year.
Inevitably, as old stock is cleared and new stock is different, spare parts for older factory wheels become rare as hen's teeth, assuming they existed in the first place.
Occasionally, they can be replaced by generic parts, but it's becoming increasingly difficult and it often require some adaptations.
Personally, I enjoy tinkering with broken factory wheels and finding ways to fix them, but it's difficult to do so commercially, not knowing whether the fix will hold or will kill the customer... :o
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spare parts for older factory wheels become rare as hen's teeth, assuming they existed in the first place.
I suspect my Racing Zero Red Passion wheels are very much in this category! They're very pretty, and they currently sit in my TT frame as 'training wheels'. As I've ridden that bike a grand total of 30km, and I'm unlikely to resurrect my nascent TT career, they'll probably survive long enough to become a worthwhile museum exhibit! ;D
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spare parts for older factory wheels become rare as hen's teeth, assuming they existed in the first place.
I suspect my Racing Zero Red Passion wheels are very much in this category! They're very pretty, and they currently sit in my TT frame as 'training wheels'. As I've ridden that bike a grand total of 30km, and I'm unlikely to resurrect my nascent TT career, they'll probably survive long enough to become a worthwhile museum exhibit! ;D
Last year I was looking for a pair of second hand Zero as light wheels for hill climb racing... couldn't get my hands on any, so I ended up building myself a pair of lightweights... spent around 240 pounds in components... 1300 g , not bad for clinchers
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spare parts for older factory wheels become rare as hen's teeth, assuming they existed in the first place.
I suspect my Racing Zero Red Passion wheels are very much in this category! They're very pretty, and they currently sit in my TT frame as 'training wheels'. As I've ridden that bike a grand total of 30km, and I'm unlikely to resurrect my nascent TT career, they'll probably survive long enough to become a worthwhile museum exhibit! ;D
Last year I was looking for a pair of second hand Zero as light wheels for hill climb racing... couldn't get my hands on any, so I ended up building myself a pair of lightweights... spent around 240 pounds in components... 1300 g , not bad for clinchers
That's a lot lighter than Zeros. I think they're nominally about 1485g, but mine (without skewers) are around 1510 - pretty similar to Ksyrium Elites, which were half the price! They do look pretty with the red spokes, and the hubs are incredibly smooth, but by god they're stiff.
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spare parts for older factory wheels become rare as hen's teeth, assuming they existed in the first place.
I suspect my Racing Zero Red Passion wheels are very much in this category! They're very pretty, and they currently sit in my TT frame as 'training wheels'. As I've ridden that bike a grand total of 30km, and I'm unlikely to resurrect my nascent TT career, they'll probably survive long enough to become a worthwhile museum exhibit! ;D
Last year I was looking for a pair of second hand Zero as light wheels for hill climb racing... couldn't get my hands on any, so I ended up building myself a pair of lightweights... spent around 240 pounds in components... 1300 g , not bad for clinchers
That's a lot lighter than Zeros. I think they're nominally about 1485g, but mine (without skewers) are around 1510 - pretty similar to Ksyrium Elites, which were half the price! They do look pretty with the red spokes, and the hubs are incredibly smooth, but by god they're stiff.
Yes, I managed to find a pair of non-tubeless 380 g rims... they are not very durable, the brake track is probably just over 1 mm thick, but they will be durable enough for a few seasons of hill climb racing.
Unfortunately, with the advent of tubeless, alloy rims have become wider and heavier and carbon rims are still too expensive to be a viable option for me.
I was looking for a pair of Zero on Ebay, but everything got snatched up at premium prices... people prepared to pay 400 quid for second hand pair of alloy wheels, madness.
On balance, I did spend less, I have wheels that I can repair and they are even lighter... win win
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Alloy wheels for tubulars are pretty cheap Kysriums etc as few use tubs, and those that do “ need” carbon
They’re typically a fair bit lighter than the clincher ones as well.
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There's a reason they're cheap - few people can face dealing with tubs.
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Closest topic I could find: Years ago (years!) I got pointed to a wheel building e-book, which was written and sold by a reputable (older) wheel builder.
I'm trying to convince one of my friends to build his new wheels, but I cannot remember the name. This is like 12-14 years ago.
In lieu of that, are there any other good wheel building guides?
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Closest topic I could find: Years ago (years!) I got pointed to a wheel building e-book, which was written and sold by a reputable (older) wheel builder.
I'm trying to convince one of my friends to build his new wheels, but I cannot remember the name. This is like 12-14 years ago.
In lieu of that, are there any other good wheel building guides?
Sounds like Wheelpro
https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php
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That looks extremely familiar, thanks!!
Edit: Not just familiar. This enabled me to find the original email recept (from 2006!) and use that to grab the latest edition.