Grammar that makes you cringe

[T42]

"Teeth-whitening" should be "tooth-whitening". "Tooth-" is used adverbially to modify "whitening". The fact that it works on more than one tooth is grammatically immaterial.

I was wrong to call it an adjectival noun, though.

[citoyen]

The fact that it works on more than one tooth is grammatically immaterial.

I think this is one of those instances where practice trumps grammar - no one uses such products for the whitening of a single tooth, do they?

[Cudzoziemiec]

The Victorian parts of Indian cities have streets with names like Eighty Feet Road and Hundred Feet Road (referring to the width of the road). It sounds wrong and I assumed it was an Indian-ism, but no, it turns out to have been Victorian practice to use a plural in those circumstances. The lesson here could be not to trust engineers with words.

[T42]

The fact that it works on more than one tooth is grammatically immaterial.

I think this is one of those instances where practice trumps grammar - no one uses such products for the whitening of a single tooth, do they?

We know what Trump does to grammar. No reason to muck it up any further.

Anyway, that reasoning demonstrates that adjectival/adverbial nouns are not understood. They never, ever, ever take plurals. "Student housing" is never "students housing".

[jsabine]

It may, of course, be students' housing.

[citoyen]

Anyway, that reasoning demonstrates that adjectival/adverbial nouns are not understood.

Or that rigidly prescriptive grammar rules do not reflect everyday usage.

[T42]

Everday ignorance, more like.

It may, of course, be students' housing.

Aye, but that's a possessive, a completely different form.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Without context we don't know whether it's students' housing, student's housing or students housing (ie subject verb, "students housing animals are in breach of university rules").

[jsabine]

It may, of course, be students' housing.

Aye, but that's a possessive, a completely different form.

Really? I always thought the apostrophe pluralised it. Hey ho, you learn something new every day.


Don't you just hate it when a perfectly good bit of smart-arsery provokes such a reasoned, informative response? You might even think pedantry were dead.

[T42]

Without context we don't know whether it's students' housing, student's housing or students housing (ie subject verb, "students housing animals are in breach of university rules").

Right enough. I was thinking of halls of residence, digs, etc., in other words student housing as it might be considered by a university accommodation bureau.

[citoyen]

They never, ever, ever take plurals.

Here's an interesting piece on the subject that debunks that notion:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/mind-your-language/2012/jul/05/mind-your-language-nouns

While there are many of these phrases that use plural adjuncts, I also thought of one that uses the singular form of a noun that is never normally used in the singular:

Trouser press

Not a phrase I've ever given much thought to before but now that I am thinking about it, it looks really odd.

On the matter of tooth-whitening vs teeth-whitening, you could refer to the precedent set by toothbrush, of course.

[Cudzoziemiec]

There's dispute over the technical term for such juxtapositions of nouns. Some say adjectival noun, some noun adjunct, some noun modifier. I'll call them attributive nouns, in keeping with most dictionaries (you've probably noticed those entries that start "often attrib").

Perhaps we've started off with what people call a category error; T42 is correct that English adjectives don't take plurals, but these are not adjectives. They're still nouns, albeit used in conjunction with other nouns.

Alternatively we could say that English adjectives do take plurals and decline for gender and case, just like they do in other Indo-European languages, but in English all genders and cases and both plural and singular look exactly the same.

[citoyen]

T42 is correct that English adjectives don't take plurals, but these are not adjectives. They're still nouns, albeit used in conjunction with other nouns.

'Adjectival nouns' is how T42 described them and I'm familiar with that term. His argument is that such adjectival nouns should follow the same rules as adjectives, which is fine as a general principle but custom doesn't always follow the rules.

[Cudzoziemiec]

So he did, Sorry.

[T42]

They never, ever, ever take plurals.

Here's an interesting piece on the subject that debunks that notion:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/mind-your-language/2012/jul/05/mind-your-language-nouns

Well, ladies room isn't a straight plural, but a possessive plural from which some struggling grocer has omitted the apostrophe.  Apart from that it's true that arms race is in the plural, so my never ever ever is a bit too strong.  I'd agree with him, though, that any new coinage should stick to the singular.

While there are many of these phrases that use plural adjuncts, I also thought of one that uses the singular form of a noun that is never normally used in the singular:

Trouser press

Not a phrase I've ever given much thought to before but now that I am thinking about it, it looks really odd.

On the matter of tooth-whitening vs teeth-whitening, you could refer to the precedent set by toothbrush, of course.

This doesn't help much: https://www.etymonline.com/word/trousers other than to mention that the garment was considered Celtic. Dave Allen could have made something of that.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Also, scissor sharpener.

[Croft]

TeeVee's Ned Boulting – "mitigate" and "militate" are not the same word. I think you mean almost exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

[ElyDave]

The Victorian parts of Indian cities have streets with names like Eighty Feet Road and Hundred Feet Road (referring to the width of the road). It sounds wrong and I assumed it was an Indian-ism, but no, it turns out to have been Victorian practice to use a plural in those circumstances. The lesson here could be not to trust engineers with words.

Round here, the opposite seems to apply, Sixteen Foot Bank, Ten Mile Bank etc

[T42]

Also, scissor sharpener.

OK, ok, I bow; but both trousers and scissors are special cases in that the singular form is an oddity.

[offcumden]

TeeVee's Ned Boulting – "mitigate" and "militate" are not the same word. I think you mean almost exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

Since you mention Tdf commentators, would someone tell David Millar that dominant riding, such as that displayed by a specialist climber leaving the peloton in his wake, might justifiably be described as 'imperious'.  But not 'imperial'; nothing to do with empires.

[Legs]

Also, scissor sharpener.

OK, ok, I bow; but both trousers and scissors are special cases in that the singular form is an oddity.

knicker elastic

[hellymedic]

Also, scissor sharpener.

OK, ok, I bow; but both trousers and scissors are special cases in that the singular form is an oddity.

knicker elastic

Almost any garment that clothes the body where lower limbs meet trunk has this 'oddity'.
Tights
Trousers
Pants
Shorts
Knickers
Breeches

[Cudzoziemiec]

But they don't all singularize in compounds. Someone who darns tights (I'm informed this was a genuine paid occupation in bygone days) would, I think, be a tights darner rather than a tight darner. Though it's always possible to have a tight tights darner.

[citoyen]

But they don't all singularize in compounds. Someone who darns tights (I'm informed this was a genuine paid occupation in bygone days) would, I think, be a tights darner rather than a tight darner. Though it's always possible to have a tight tights darner.

I think the reasons for that are covered in the Guardian piece I linked to - where singularising the noun would change its meaning, you'd tend towards keeping the plural, and that's one of the few valid reasons for breaking the rule of using the singular.

T42 was essentially correct in the first place, but you should never say never when it comes to grammar...

[T42]

Especially English grammar.

I can remember folk in my school French class being amused that the French spoke of trousers and diseases in the singular.

Anent diseases, it seems that we speak of the common ones that causes rashes and swellings in the plural, but others in the singular: measles, mumps, shingles and yaws but malaria, cholera, plague, etc.

Incidentally, the French for malaria is paludisme. I never thought about where they got that from until we cycled past an area called La Grande Palud in Brittany a few years back. It means "marsh".

Malaria might also mean a bad song, e.g. rap, which makes me feel ill.