Author Topic: Grammar that makes you cringe  (Read 857293 times)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5775 on: 04 November, 2020, 04:22:56 pm »
The withutan is a species of great ape similar to an orangutan but white in colour.

According to the Great Dictionary of Lies.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Tim Hall

  • Victoria is my queen
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5776 on: 04 November, 2020, 04:24:25 pm »
But the classic carol line "... without a city wall ..." means outside too.
Hymn, shirley?

There is a green hill far away
Without a city wall ect ect

There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
"overhaul" it, or you can ride it.  (Jerome K Jerome)

offcumden

  • Oh, no!
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5777 on: 04 November, 2020, 04:30:59 pm »
But the classic carol line "... without a city wall ..." means outside too.
That's a good example of the word being used in that way.

But, to be a bit picky - which is sort of the point of this thread, no? - isn't a carol a Christmas song, whereas "There is a green hill far away" is usually associated with Easter?

(Another thing - and this is even further OT, being geographical rather than linguistic, wouldn't the crucifixion hill have been more brown than green?)

ETA - I now see Tim has made the same point re hymn/carol

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5778 on: 04 November, 2020, 04:32:03 pm »
But the classic carol line "... without a city wall ..." means outside too.
Hymn, shirley?

There is a green hill far away
Without a city wall ect ect


Ah good point. Shows how much time I spend in church.
Rust never sleeps

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5779 on: 04 November, 2020, 04:33:20 pm »
I honestly couldn't remember whether it was a hymn or carol so I just copied hatler.  ;D
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5780 on: 04 November, 2020, 04:38:42 pm »
If we're going to be really pedantic, then a carol is (I think) a song sung by different people starting from the same line but at a different time. Associated with Christmas but doesn't technically have to be. Wowbagger will probably know...
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5781 on: 04 November, 2020, 04:41:50 pm »
Pretty sure Number 153 isn’t a carol, at least in the Christmassy sense, since the lyrical theme appears to be the DETH of J Christ rather than his birth, plus some guff about sin.  No shepherds, wise men, donkeys, turkeys, fairy lights or pine trees at all :demon:
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Tim Hall

  • Victoria is my queen
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5782 on: 04 November, 2020, 05:05:58 pm »
Pretty sure Number 153 isn’t a carol, at least in the Christmassy sense, since the lyrical theme appears to be the DETH of J Christ rather than his birth, plus some guff about sin.  No shepherds, wise men, donkeys, turkeys, fairy lights or pine trees at all :demon:

Some Bad People I know sing the first verse followed by "For he's a jolly good fellow"
There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
"overhaul" it, or you can ride it.  (Jerome K Jerome)

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5783 on: 04 November, 2020, 09:25:59 pm »
"There is a green hill far away outwith a city wall" Would that be more or less confusing for the kids that sing it (if they still do)?

I think this should be 'outside the city wall'. Much more the language of an English 5 year old.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5784 on: 05 November, 2020, 12:13:12 am »



If we're going to be really pedantic, then a carol is (I think) a song sung by different people starting from the same line but at a different time. Associated with Christmas but doesn't technically have to be. Wowbagger will probably know...

Carol was originally to be danced.  There are  carols for many occasions (see Oxford Book Of Carols).  What you are describing is caNON, or round - a simple sort of fugue.





Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5785 on: 05 November, 2020, 09:52:53 am »
"There is a green hill far away outwith a city wall" Would that be more or less confusing for the kids that sing it (if they still do)?

I think this should be 'outside the city wall'. Much more the language of an English 5 year old.
It is an old hymn. Their ideas of suitable language for children and ours are rather different...
<Locates and dusts off hymn book.> Words, Cecil Frances Alexander, 1818 - 1895. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_Frances_Alexander she was also the author of "All Things Bright and Beautiful" and "Once in Royal David's City" from a book called "Hymns for Little Children".

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5786 on: 05 November, 2020, 11:35:24 am »
Anyway, surely being befuddled by the weird language and spelling mistakes in hims(sic) is an important part of growing up and being BRITISH?

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5787 on: 05 November, 2020, 11:36:53 am »
Anyway, surely being befuddled by the weird language and spelling mistakes in hims(sic) is an important part of growing up and being BRITISH?

So true!
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5788 on: 05 November, 2020, 11:44:29 am »



If we're going to be really pedantic, then a carol is (I think) a song sung by different people starting from the same line but at a different time. Associated with Christmas but doesn't technically have to be. Wowbagger will probably know...

Carol was originally to be danced.  There are  carols for many occasions (see Oxford Book Of Carols).  What you are describing is caNON, or round - a simple sort of fugue.
As written by Pachelbel, famously. Thanks for the correction.  :thumbsup:
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Guy

  • Retired
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5789 on: 05 November, 2020, 11:59:51 am »

As written by Pachelbel, famously.


I wish you hadn't said that. I now have a train horns earworm.  :hand:
"The Opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject"  Marcus Aurelius

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5790 on: 10 November, 2020, 09:50:17 am »
It really annoys me when people hyphenate prepositional verbs. "I'll pick-up the rest tomorrow" or "We had to write-off the bad debt".  >:(
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5791 on: 10 November, 2020, 10:33:01 am »
To balance this out, they've not hyphenated prepositional phrases when used adjectivally. So, "We're seeing interest from move up customers" rather than "move-up customers". That wouldn't really matter so much on its own – except that it's an awkward and ugly phrase regardless of hyphenation – but to cap it off, they've invented the phrase "they're are".  >:( >:(
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5792 on: 10 November, 2020, 05:29:48 pm »
It really annoys me when people hyphenate prepositional verbs. "I'll pick-up the rest tomorrow" or "We had to write-off the bad debt".  >:(

Barakta sometimes does weird things with hyphenation (of which this is an infrequent manifestation).  I haven't quite determined the logic to it (my working theory is that where there are multiple potential hyphenation candidates in a sentence she'll nearly always pick the first, even when it results in peculiar semantics), but it's one of the symptoms of the language impairment most people don't realise she has.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5793 on: 10 November, 2020, 05:39:14 pm »
"HIGH RISK CRASH ROUTE", as featured on assorted, largely redundant, road signs.

Shouldn't that be "HIGH CRASH RISK ROUTE"?

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5794 on: 10 November, 2020, 05:39:49 pm »
I certainly wasn't aware Barakta had any language impairment other than, obviously, deafness. I do remember that some doctor or other insisted she was dyslexic, which I don't see any sign of. But there's a difference being having a job that involves writing things, as she does (?), and writing where writing is the point of the job. The fact that what's being written isn't usually worth reading (as opposed to being badly written) is not actually the writer's fault.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5795 on: 10 November, 2020, 05:42:59 pm »
"HIGH RISK CRASH ROUTE", as featured on assorted, largely redundant, road signs.

Shouldn't that be "HIGH CRASH RISK ROUTE"?
Does that mean this drug is a route to a risk of crashing while high?  ;D
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5796 on: 10 November, 2020, 05:49:43 pm »
"HIGH RISK CRASH ROUTE", as featured on assorted, largely redundant, road signs.

Shouldn't that be "HIGH CRASH RISK ROUTE"?

HIGH-CRASH RISK-ROUTE?

;)
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5797 on: 10 November, 2020, 05:55:03 pm »
I certainly wasn't aware Barakta had any language impairment other than, obviously, deafness.

Yeah, it's a deafness thing.  Combination of failure to acquire language fully by osmosis, and poor working memory.

Most noticeable is the way she's only got a one-word noun register[1], so will sometimes contradict herself by repeating the same one in the second half of the sentence.  "Windows has horrible fonts so I prefer to use Windows" sort of thing.  Similarly, failure to correctly apply negation, so she'll say the exact opposite of what she means.  In both cases, she won't 'hear' that she's done it and correct herself as you or I might.  Happens more frequently in speech, but sometimes creeps into her writing when tired.

She's had to work on various quirks in her formal writing over the years.  She really should have had teacher-of-the-deaf support in later years of education (she got some as a postgraduate student), but if a deaf person is likely to get a couple of GCSEs they're Not A Priority.

Obviously the problem comes when I - a product of an 80s/90s grammar-free education - have to proof-read her work.  Factual errors and typos and such are fine, but the problem comes when something feels wrong, but I struggle to tell whether it's violating an intangible grammar rule, or just not my preferred style.


[1] I'm making her sound like the Apollo guidance and navigation computer.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5798 on: 10 November, 2020, 05:55:46 pm »
Talking of road signs, the electronic signs on the M2 the other day were displaying "REPORT OF ANIMALS". I thought it an interesting phrase, since "report" can mean "noise", so you could take the sign as meaning "animal noises".

I didn't hear any animal noises though. Or see any animals.

The thought also occurred to me that Report of Animals would be an excellent name for a post-rock band.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5799 on: 10 November, 2020, 06:08:02 pm »
Weather report: Thunder.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.