Author Topic: Eat your veg!  (Read 9727 times)

mattc

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Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #25 on: 24 February, 2017, 08:06:26 pm »
...
Are those who eat that much fruit and veg
...
I don't think they're saying how MUCH to eat - it's more about eating a greater variety of different [non-meat based] foods.
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Pedal Castro

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Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #26 on: 24 February, 2017, 08:25:04 pm »
Although variety is probably good, the report I heard was very much based on how MUCH, I.e. 800g per day

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #27 on: 24 February, 2017, 09:11:24 pm »
Don't confuse stupid reporting with the research.
Getting there...

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #28 on: 24 February, 2017, 09:12:11 pm »
Correlation does not mean causation.  Are those who eat that much fruit and veg not also likely not to smoke, drink too much, exercise more, and generally look after themselves?
Corrected for in the data analysis.
Getting there...

caerau

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Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #29 on: 24 February, 2017, 09:13:10 pm »


Does this reflect the increasingly unhelpful state of 'science' journalism?


Yes


Sorry, FTFY ;)
It's a reverse Elvis thing.

caerau

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Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #30 on: 24 February, 2017, 09:13:37 pm »
Ah, sorry, didn't read to the end, apologies Clarion.  Beat me to it.
It's a reverse Elvis thing.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #31 on: 24 February, 2017, 09:20:33 pm »
I'm glad we agree, caerau :)
Getting there...

Pedal Castro

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Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #32 on: 25 February, 2017, 05:19:32 am »
Correlation does not mean causation.  Are those who eat that much fruit and veg not also likely not to smoke, drink too much, exercise more, and generally look after themselves?
Corrected for in the data analysis.

Is it? Do you have a link to the actual paper? I only heard the lead author being interviewed on 5Live.

Edit:
Just read the BBC article which says "Not all of the 95 studies that were analysed fully accounted for other aspects of lifestyle, such as exercise levels, that could also play a role in prolonging lives." Obviously quite a substantial meta-analysis though. I also recollect him saying on the radio that there was a big benefit from 5-a-day and the increase to 10-a-day brought a small but measurable extra benefit.

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
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Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #33 on: 25 February, 2017, 05:46:33 am »
Here it is:
https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/doi/10.1093/ije/dyw319/3039477/Fruit-and-vegetable-intake-and-the-risk-of

Seems that only two of the 95 studies are significant wrt the >500g/day, and of those it isn't clear how many of the participants were at the high end dosage. Not convinced at all by this. My favourite graph is the one showing that 50g/day of tomato is bad for you but 200g/day is good for you  ;D

Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #34 on: 25 February, 2017, 08:44:16 am »
Thanks fort the link. Appreciate last sentence of results summary, 'xm premature deaths associated with consumption under 500g per day, if the relationship is causal'

Interesting to compare to pure study, whf video linked elsewhere

I maintain a view that the science, never mind the reporting, around nutrition and health is not actually alll that robust. In part, I suspect it's just really difficult and complex for a whole host of reasons. I suspect there are also results that don't fit preconceived ideas and so are hard to assimilate. Plus some (actually quite a lot) of the participants have an almost religious fervour against those who disagree, which clearly doesn't help and creates misinformation. I don't buy the full conspiracy theory stuff. Self interest yes,  but not at the level claimed.

Hence Ian's moderation in all things seems a sensible course for most. I think it is clear that too much food is a greater problem in the developed world than too little - albeit even that is a sweepeing generalization when Britain has food banks in operation.

Mike

ian

Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #35 on: 25 February, 2017, 12:12:32 pm »
I do think we all know that we should be eating a balanced diet, with a preponderance of fruit and veg, and avoidance of processed food. I think we all know that we need to do the sort of exercise that gets us out of breath a few times a week and maintain a general level of activity. While I see what guidelines are trying to achieve by setting quantifiable targets, the advice is really eat your veg and do some exercise. Not only are you likely to live longer, but there's a increase in the quality of life, especially as you get older. My granddad (a steadfast vegetable avoider and serial salad dodger) reached 93 but he wheezed through the last 30 years of that from his chair owing to the fact he'd tarmaced his lungs with Park Drive.

Of course, this all correlates in with socio-economic status etc. I'm faintly posh-o (shut it, mum) so of course wouldn't dream of sending my hypothetical kids out to school in the morning armed with a bag of crisps and Capri Sun (which seems the most popular amongst the school kids that walk past my house, it has a picture of an orange on the front but is 98% sugar syrup and 2% orange juice from concentrate). I can also go to a deli and spend a fiver on a jar of artisanal pickle and afford a gym membership (which my employer picks up the costs of anyway).

Fact is, in the Westernized word, we eat far too much and do far too little. I spent a fair amount of time wandering around developing parts of Africa, and it's grimly interesting watching waistlines start to inflate in places like Lagos in direct correlation with the availability of burgers and stuff. I'm not sure there's a lot of point telling people to eat 10 portions of anything or exercise five a times a week if they're eating nearly none and doing no exercise.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #36 on: 25 February, 2017, 12:32:41 pm »
Sad fact is junk packet food has an almost indefinite shelf life, when fresh fruit and veg do not.
Eating sufficient fresh stuff depends on supplies' availability and the manpower for frequent shopping, preparation or refrigeration.
Kid brother made a mint at school, selling sandwiches Mum made for him cos they were interesting and contained fresh things.
Mum is much of a stay-at-home housewife.

Had to laugh at kid brother's then 4-year-old, stuffing lettuce garnish into tuna sandwiches at a wedding buffet. Veg habits start young!

Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #37 on: 25 February, 2017, 04:15:28 pm »
Sad fact is junk packet food has an almost indefinite shelf life, when fresh fruit and veg do not.
Eating sufficient fresh stuff depends on supplies' availability and the manpower for frequent shopping, preparation or refrigeration.
Kid brother made a mint at school, selling sandwiches Mum made for him cos they were interesting and contained fresh things.
Mum is much of a stay-at-home housewife.

Had to laugh at kid brother's then 4-year-old, stuffing lettuce garnish into tuna sandwiches at a wedding buffet. Veg habits start young!

Almost completely off topic, but I still remember my oldest daughter, now nearly 15, at the age of 3,  announcing to the whole pub that she had just eaten a piece of lettuce!! She even got a round of applause:)

This morning I tried a 5 veg portion breakfast - small green pepper, half a large courgette, small onion and a handful of tomatoes, fired in olive oil and mixed with 3 eggs. Felt uncomfortably full all morning. Given I don't always eat 3 times a day - not for any reason than I don't always feel the need for breakfast early - eating 10 portions across two meals could take some getting used to!

ian

Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #38 on: 25 February, 2017, 04:33:13 pm »
Sad fact is junk packet food has an almost indefinite shelf life, when fresh fruit and veg do not.
Eating sufficient fresh stuff depends on supplies' availability and the manpower for frequent shopping, preparation or refrigeration.
Kid brother made a mint at school, selling sandwiches Mum made for him cos they were interesting and contained fresh things.
Mum is much of a stay-at-home housewife.

Had to laugh at kid brother's then 4-year-old, stuffing lettuce garnish into tuna sandwiches at a wedding buffet. Veg habits start young!

Me and my good friend Jason the Stupid once got taken to hospital because we'd sat under the slide at infant school and eaten loads of clover under the impression that it was cress. We were about six and I have no explanation for the sudden craving for cress. I did always like egg and cress sandwiches, I suppose. With salad cream (mayonnaise didn't arrive in the East Midlands until 1998).

My family still only eat stuff out of packets. They don't trust food that isn't sealed in plastic and encased in cardboard. Food preparation is the ceremonial disinterment of said foodstuff and installation under the grill or in the oven. My mum was sick once because I used olive oil (it's for your ears!). I blame the 80s, everything was waffly versatile back then. I still eat raw Smash when I think no one is looking.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #39 on: 25 February, 2017, 04:34:42 pm »
I get gassy if I exceed 3 portions of fruit/veg in a meal.

Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #40 on: 25 February, 2017, 06:03:04 pm »
I get gassy if I exceed 3 portions of fruit/veg in a meal.

Yes, I won't be doing that again until I forget - it's a bit like a hangover, but less comfortable

Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #41 on: 27 February, 2017, 08:22:04 am »
It almost certainly depends on what you are used to. My standard midweek lunch is a salad that is mostly tomatoes, salad leaves, a small amount of cheese, olives, olive oil and some tortilla chips. A medium size bowl of it, probably about 4-5 portions in one bowl I think.
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hellymedic

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Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #42 on: 27 February, 2017, 12:21:49 pm »
We probably eat around 8 portions of fruit/veg most days, and have done for several years. More than about 3 portions per meal can still leave us gassy.

ian

Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #43 on: 27 February, 2017, 12:45:26 pm »
Most of our evening meals are 80% veg, even if we do pasta or rice, we'll usually bulk up with veg rather than have a big pile of rice or pasta. Frankly, veg is more interesting. Finely chopped cauliflower makes a good replacement for rice in many meals, I do a fiendish rice-free pilau. It doesn't make me fart any more than usual but I've been eating that way for years. I just have to avoid the musical fruit (not all beans, haricot and butter beans are fine, but I can't touch lentils or kidney beans).

My day is pretty much toast for breakfast, fruit and dried fruit for lunch, and then a big evening meal about 10pm ish. I don't bother counting portions.

Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #44 on: 27 February, 2017, 02:48:00 pm »
Lunch today was 200g of lettuce, 200g of sprouts (love sprouts), 500g of mushrooms, 120g of quorn, 10g of olive oil. Will have similar amounts at dinner. I've eaten about 400g of fruit today already.

I wouldn't say I am gassy all  the time.  ;D

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #45 on: 27 February, 2017, 03:01:50 pm »
I wouldn't say I am gassy all the time.  ;D

 ;D ;D ;D

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #46 on: 27 February, 2017, 03:10:32 pm »
Sad fact is junk packet food has an almost indefinite shelf life, when fresh fruit and veg do not.
Eating sufficient fresh stuff depends on supplies' availability and the manpower for frequent shopping, preparation or refrigeration.
Kid brother made a mint at school, selling sandwiches Mum made for him cos they were interesting and contained fresh things.
Mum is much of a stay-at-home housewife.

Had to laugh at kid brother's then 4-year-old, stuffing lettuce garnish into tuna sandwiches at a wedding buffet. Veg habits start young!
On the contrary, I think they end young. Toddlers try just about everything, it's only as they're increasingly exposed to our adult habits that children start to shun veg. At 4 years old your brother's kid had probably not started school...
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #47 on: 27 February, 2017, 03:17:12 pm »
Sad fact is junk packet food has an almost indefinite shelf life, when fresh fruit and veg do not.
Eating sufficient fresh stuff depends on supplies' availability and the manpower for frequent shopping, preparation or refrigeration.
Kid brother made a mint at school, selling sandwiches Mum made for him cos they were interesting and contained fresh things.
Mum is much of a stay-at-home housewife.

Had to laugh at kid brother's then 4-year-old, stuffing lettuce garnish into tuna sandwiches at a wedding buffet. Veg habits start young!
On the contrary, I think they end young. Toddlers try just about everything, it's only as they're increasingly exposed to our adult habits that children start to shun veg. At 4 years old your brother's kid had probably not started school...

Was certainly in nursery by then!
Now is oldest of 4 kids, is 8 and is not on diet of beige bilge.

Kim

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Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #48 on: 27 February, 2017, 03:29:44 pm »
I started to shun green veg and other unpleasant food at about 2.5.  I reckon it's a simple developmental thing, in that you become old enough to know what's nasty taste/texture-wise and how to avoid it (rather than indiscriminately putting things in your mouth and swallowing whatever stays there long enough, as babies do).  It certainly wasn't a learned behaviour, as the rest of my family were all happy to eat all sorts of things, and I didn't really have any exposure to anyone else (certainly not in a food context) until I started school aged 5 - by which point attempts to make me eat Not Food would ultimately be futile[1]. *shrug*


[1] I was, as a rule, quite happy to starve until such a time as Food was available.  But parents and other adults had Ideas and delicate egos, which meant that all sorts of tactics - some of which I'd consider to be abusive - were attempted on a regular basis.  With hindsight, I'd suggest that eating disorders are far more harmful than a lack of vegetables[2], and if you're force-feeding your child with things that make them vomit, you're probably doing it wrong.
[2] Like most supertasters, I eschew fatty foods, carbonated drinks and alcohol, so it's a bit swings-and-roundabouts in health terms.

ian

Re: Eat your veg!
« Reply #49 on: 27 February, 2017, 03:32:41 pm »
Sad fact is junk packet food has an almost indefinite shelf life, when fresh fruit and veg do not.
Eating sufficient fresh stuff depends on supplies' availability and the manpower for frequent shopping, preparation or refrigeration.
Kid brother made a mint at school, selling sandwiches Mum made for him cos they were interesting and contained fresh things.
Mum is much of a stay-at-home housewife.

Had to laugh at kid brother's then 4-year-old, stuffing lettuce garnish into tuna sandwiches at a wedding buffet. Veg habits start young!
On the contrary, I think they end young. Toddlers try just about everything, it's only as they're increasingly exposed to our adult habits that children start to shun veg. At 4 years old your brother's kid had probably not started school...

I do notice a lot of parents announcing announcing that their kid won't or can't eat foods a through z these days (it's usually an extensive list). I can't say I had a choice as a child, my parents were firmly in the eat it now or later, but you will eat it, camp. As a seventies/eighties family, vegetables consisted of frozen rice, potato waffles, and tinned peas though and my mother believed in cooking everything down to its constituent carbon atoms.

It's true though, it's interesting that my niece went from eating most things to the same habits as her mother (which is the same as my parents) – so she won't now eat anything considered foreign (olives, rocket, you name it). I think parents effectively conspire with their kids in food faddism these days. A friend of mine, who's a teacher, is forever getting notes from parents about the kids eating habits from deathly allergies through to intolerances.