Author Topic: Tour de France 2020  (Read 41577 times)

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #425 on: 22 September, 2020, 06:43:08 pm »
Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #426 on: 22 September, 2020, 07:27:16 pm »
Yes

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #427 on: 22 September, 2020, 11:28:20 pm »
Check the numbers. Football is basically a game of repeated sprints, and aerobic capacity can help you recover quicker and stop you needing to burn so much per sprint. Players get bought/sold based in part on how much distance they can cover (at a certain speed). The sprinting bit is really important - at Liverpool Charlie Adam used to cover vast distances, but incredibly slowly, meaning he was nearly in the right place for the entire game! It's entirely possible to judge your effort and pace yourself, but if it means choosing to not track a run then you are going to get into trouble. Here's an article with some actual numbers:
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11996016/premier-league-running-stats-this-season-revealed
It's not just at the end of games, you can see a trend in the numbers from about 30-45 minutes and then from about 60 minutes onwards. As well as reducing your ability to run, fatigue also impacts on fine motor control and decision making, so it impacts on the execution of skills too.
The other area where drugs help athletes, especially those in sports where there are a lot of games and the season is long is in recovery from injury, and masking the pain so you can play through injury. The number of NFL players who end their career addicted to painkillers is significant - missing a game could mean losing your place and having your million dollar contract ended.
Happy to believe all that, didn't think EPO would help with either though (but I don't know enough about drugs or Biology).
simplicity, truth, equality, peace

LMT

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #428 on: 23 September, 2020, 07:20:36 am »
Is this actually the LA..?  https://twitter.com/lancearmstrong/status/1307357755880083457

The tick next to the twitter handle is the thing to look for that's shows that the user is verified.

I'm waiting on Pogacar to upload his data to Strava, word is he was pushing about 7w/kg for about 15 mins up the climb on the TT.

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #429 on: 23 September, 2020, 07:26:21 am »
Is this actually the LA..?  https://twitter.com/lancearmstrong/status/1307357755880083457

The tick next to the twitter handle is the thing to look for that's shows that the user is verified.

I'm waiting on Pogacar to upload his data to Strava, word is he was pushing about 7w/kg for about 15 mins up the climb on the TT.

It is not going to happen:  https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pogacar-rode-without-power-meter-or-computer-for-la-planche-des-belles-filles/

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #430 on: 23 September, 2020, 08:11:56 am »
Word on radio re Quintana et al is that the police seized blood serum & associated kit, but it's hard to say if it was being used legitimately (100ml/day for rehydration purposes) or to mask doping, putatively by reducing haematocrit when tests impend.

Quintana's proclamations that he's never had a positive test have an eerie ring to them, reminiscent of the 'gentleman' named up-thread a bit.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #431 on: 23 September, 2020, 09:23:56 am »
There’s a very interesting account of how Podacar and his team prepared for the time trial on Pez news. An interview with Allan Pieper ( DS) tells of a number of reconnaissance trips and trials. A “ junior” 14-29 cassette was sourced for the climb to give one tooth progression in the middle sprockets. The changing of bikes was practiced and refined. Preparation, preparation, preparation.
In the post race interview Podacar said he “ knew the climb “ - he did, intimately.
Pieper had worked out that this was where the race was to be won or lost.

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #432 on: 23 September, 2020, 09:55:36 am »
The bike change was spot on. The car stopped in just the place he could lean the TT bike against it and his mechanic had the road bike to hand already. Roglic - who was already struggling by then stopped about ten metres ahead of the car so the mech had to run up to him with the bike. In the long term it was a few seconds of a minute deficit but small margins and all that
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #433 on: 23 September, 2020, 01:35:02 pm »
Roglič was also missing his nice comfy armchair.  The point, though, is that Pog put 1:21 into the entire field.

Tain't him being investigated, though.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #434 on: 23 September, 2020, 03:08:30 pm »
There may well be something in the fact that Pogacar is 10 - 15 years younger than the obviously totally innocent riders who finished second and third.  Mas is the only rider in the top ten who is in the first half of his twenties.  Several of the others are well over 30.  Experience is not everything.  As the football adage has it : If they're good enough, they're old enough (or if they're good enough Newcastle will sell them).  It was still a pretty incredible time trial though, whatever.  There may well be tales to tell...

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #435 on: 23 September, 2020, 06:40:02 pm »
Word on radio re Quintana et al is that the police seized blood serum & associated kit, but it's hard to say if it was being used legitimately (100ml/day for rehydration purposes) or to mask doping, putatively by reducing haematocrit when tests impend.

Quintana's proclamations that he's never had a positive test have an eerie ring to them, reminiscent of the 'gentleman' named up-thread a bit.

Well, Quintana certainly didnt look like he'd doped.

Pogačar, on the other hand...

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #436 on: 23 September, 2020, 06:41:31 pm »
Roglič was also missing his nice comfy armchair.  The point, though, is that Pog put 1:21 into the entire field.

Tain't him being investigated, though.

Pog put nearly 2 minutes into Roglic in the TT.

And here's the thing...Roglic's TT was actually very quick.

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #437 on: 23 September, 2020, 07:34:08 pm »
Word on radio re Quintana et al is that the police seized blood serum & associated kit, but it's hard to say if it was being used legitimately (100ml/day for rehydration purposes) or to mask doping, putatively by reducing haematocrit when tests impend.

Quintana's proclamations that he's never had a positive test have an eerie ring to them, reminiscent of the 'gentleman' named up-thread a bit.

Well, Quintana certainly didnt look like he'd doped.

Pogačar, on the other hand...

I must admit to having paid very little attention to the Tour this year (apart from enjoying Cyril Guimard's expert analysis on RTL during my day centre taxi run!) and the reason was I was convinced that Jumbo as a whole team were doped (or prepared) up to the eyeballs after seeing how they were a very large cut over the other teams as a unit in the pre-Tour races. Shades of US Postal and Sky so I rather lost interest!

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #438 on: 23 September, 2020, 11:23:55 pm »
Word on radio re Quintana et al is that the police seized blood serum & associated kit, but it's hard to say if it was being used legitimately (100ml/day for rehydration purposes) or to mask doping, putatively by reducing haematocrit when tests impend.

Quintana's proclamations that he's never had a positive test have an eerie ring to them, reminiscent of the 'gentleman' named up-thread a bit.

Well, Quintana certainly didnt look like he'd doped.

Pogačar, on the other hand...

He’s quite Froome-shaped.

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #439 on: 24 September, 2020, 11:11:41 am »
Word on radio re Quintana et al is that the police seized blood serum & associated kit, but it's hard to say if it was being used legitimately (100ml/day for rehydration purposes) or to mask doping, putatively by reducing haematocrit when tests impend.

Quintana's proclamations that he's never had a positive test have an eerie ring to them, reminiscent of the 'gentleman' named up-thread a bit.

Well, Quintana certainly didnt look like he'd doped.


Maybe the masking stuff worked too well.

I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #440 on: 24 September, 2020, 11:15:22 am »
I think if I were Nairo Quintana (which I'm not, by the way - let's get that straight) and I had doped, I'd be asking for my money back.

Nick H.

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #441 on: 24 September, 2020, 01:10:58 pm »
I'm baffled by the certainty of some of the opinions here.  You shouldn't tout an opinion as unchallegeable, or attack people who don't share it. That's because it's an opinion, not a fact.  And in this case, where there are about a bazillion unknowns, why make so many assumptioms? It's not wise. We don't get the facts until there's an adverse test result, which might not happen until testing improves in ten or twenty tears and samples can be defrosted.

Doping is a medical matter, so about half of the bazillion unknowns come under the heading of an individual's physiology. We've all got different genes.

Nearly all the drugs we talk about have been repeatedly double blind tested for their intended purpose, but not as performance enhancers. The effects and side-effects as performance enhancers are not well understood. Particularly for the newer drugs, riders and their doctors are experimenting wildly. We don't hear much about the drugs which don't work for certain riders, perhaps because they don't get enough of a boost to put them under suspicion.  And we should remember the high number of dopers who've died young. This must be a strong disincentive to take up doping. We never talk about it though. There's an assumption that an ambitious rider will probably dope if he thinks he won't get caught. It's not like that. Put yourself in the shoes of a young, talented, fit, law-abiding person before you judge them. If a domestique isn't coming up to scratch and he fears he might have to go and work in a bike shop, you can understand the huge motivation to dope. But for someone naturally good enough to be a potential team leader or even a monument winner, why risk everything when you already have a fairly safe career doing the one thing you love? 

And FWIW, I was an 'undecided' about Lance until the Simeoni incident and the other happenings of 2004. Some will say proudly that they 'knew' Lance was dirty before that. That's just pub talk. Nobody knew, except a few insiders like the Andreus. What we did know, from 2001 onwards, was that Lance had worked with Ferrari. But I gave him the benefit of the doubt - I reckon an arrogant Texan so-called champion would probably work with a dirty doctor if said doctor had some unique insights into clean cycling.

If you're still reading, my chin-stroking on matters of pharmaceuticals is not borne of scientific qualifications.  I could never be any sort of doping expert. But I did a stint as a medical writer for a newspaper. I expressed a lot of strong opinions which were highly controversial in some quarters.  You have to do that as a journalist, if you want to work. But I was never busted for making a mistake. Not even a little one!

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #442 on: 24 September, 2020, 01:54:54 pm »
Isn't there a bit of special pleading in your final paragraph?!  It sounds rather like the athlete's statement "I have never tested positive" and there are obviously opinions about such a defence!

Nick H.

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #443 on: 24 September, 2020, 02:08:58 pm »
It was purely meant to convey that I'm not an expert, and that my opinions have no more merit than anyone else's. You can't be an expert without technical expertise. If I were commissioned to write about it I would ask enough questions of experts to get everything right.  (This is why the hourly rate for my medical stuff was worse than McJob levels.) I would even slyly get an expert to check the article before handing it in, which is a big sin. (You get the sack.)

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #444 on: 24 September, 2020, 02:39:11 pm »
Nearly all the drugs we talk about have been repeatedly double blind tested for their intended purpose, but not as performance enhancers. The effects and side-effects as performance enhancers are not well understood. Particularly for the newer drugs, riders and their doctors are experimenting wildly. We don't hear much about the drugs which don't work for certain riders, perhaps because they don't get enough of a boost to put them under suspicion.  And we should remember the high number of dopers who've died young. This must be a strong disincentive to take up doping. We never talk about it though. There's an assumption that an ambitious rider will probably dope if he thinks he won't get caught. It's not like that. Put yourself in the shoes of a young, talented, fit, law-abiding person before you judge them. If a domestique isn't coming up to scratch and he fears he might have to go and work in a bike shop, you can understand the huge motivation to dope. But for someone naturally good enough to be a potential team leader or even a monument winner, why risk everything when you already have a fairly safe career doing the one thing you love? 
I agree about the opinions and speculation, but there's always pressure to improve your performance. Especially given the current market for riders, where there may be fewer WorldTour teams next year, and lots of the Pro-Conti teams have been going under. If you read David Millar's book, he gets to the point where he's 24, he's team leader, and it's time for him to justify his salary and get the team enough wins to keep going the following year.  He claims that he basically doped for certainty of winning (and he ended up winning a world TT title by about a minute and half). Whether you believe that or not, the thought process would be understandable  - the market is always there for quality riders to a certain extent, but the pressure to deliver is huge, especially at second tier teams where wins are harder to come by. And it's not just personal pressure to keep your job, it's pressure to win so that your team-mates, the mechanics, the soigneurs and so on all get to keep their jobs.

There are a bunch of studies into top level athletes, pro and amateur, asking about risk/reward and how far they would go to get better (eg asking if they could take something that would give them an extra 10%, but would cut their life by x years). The numbers of people who would take the performance gain and the reduced lifespan is significant. If you pour your life into something, it becomes the only thing that matters.

Hopefully, the biological passport means that even with the reduced out-of-competition testing, they would still be able to catch anyone doping. And hopefully the Tour result this year is just the result of a bunch of great clean performances. But the incentive will always be there and the opportunity has been much greater this year than in recent years, so some scepticism is natural.

Nick H.

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #445 on: 24 September, 2020, 03:06:38 pm »
If you read David Millar's book, he gets to the point where he's 24, he's team leader, and it's time for him to justify his salary and get the team enough wins to keep going the following year.  He claims that he basically doped for certainty of winning (and he ended up winning a world TT title by about a minute and half). Whether you believe that or not, the thought process would be understandable  - the market is always there for quality riders to a certain extent, but the pressure to deliver is huge, especially at second tier teams where wins are harder to come by. And it's not just personal pressure to keep your job, it's pressure to win so that your team-mates, the mechanics, the soigneurs and so on all get to keep their jobs.

There are a bunch of studies into top level athletes, pro and amateur, asking about risk/reward and how far they would go to get better (eg asking if they could take something that would give them an extra 10%, but would cut their life by x years). The numbers of people who would take the performance gain and the reduced lifespan is significant. If you pour your life into something, it becomes the only thing that matters.

I take your point 100%, but since Millar's time, surely the likelihood of being caught and the severity of the punishments have adjusted the risk/reward ratio enormously? Lance is a good example...look at all the lawsuits taking away his many millions. His life is so wrecked...being a narcissist-cum-psychopath he'll never admit it, but think of the humiliation for his wives, kids, friends. The more you win, the more prize money you get, the more you'll be slaughtered if you're caught. Just one adverse test result is enough.

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #446 on: 24 September, 2020, 03:20:44 pm »
I certainly hope you're right, Porkins.  I would love to believe I've actually seen one of the true phenomenal performances.  I want to believe that the phrase "Ce n'est pas normal" is just French for "why do we never win anything these days?"!

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #447 on: 24 September, 2020, 07:14:13 pm »
Porkins, you mention the likelihood of us knowing about Pogacar is dependent upon testing, but actually that is not really true.

Very few of the huge cycling doping cases have come about through dope testing.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #448 on: 24 September, 2020, 10:23:04 pm »
LA made tens of millions from Uber, so he hasn%u2019t got holes in his shoes. His TdF wins have officially gone but he still has the yellow jerseys on his wall. Didn%u2019t he say that he would do the same thing again if he had his time over?

The risk vs. reward calculation for doping is still there. How many ex-dopers are team managers, commentators or simply retired after collecting their winnings?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Tour de France 2020
« Reply #449 on: 24 September, 2020, 10:58:37 pm »
I take your point 100%, but since Millar's time, surely the likelihood of being caught and the severity of the punishments have adjusted the risk/reward ratio enormously?
I doubt it.  If you break the law you do it expecting that you won't get caught.  If you do drugs you do it expecting to get away with it.  Punishment doesn't come in to the logic, which is why harsher sentencing doesn't work as a deterrent.
simplicity, truth, equality, peace