Yet Another Cycling Forum
Off Topic => The Pub => Food & Drink => Topic started by: Julian on 03 November, 2008, 01:11:55 pm
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I've been making home made bread recently, and although it's mainly been successful (apart from the first one which was squidgy inside) I've been getting squat, compact little loaves. The dough rises exactly like it's meant to, but doesn't seem to get any bigger when it's been baked. It's good bread, just a bit stodgy.
The only thing I can think of is that I've been letting it rise in a bowl, then transferring it to a tin for baking. Maybe I should let it rise in the tin so that I don't have to handle it which seems to deflate it a bit before baking.
Any ideas?
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I know that you have to "knock back" certain types of bread whilst in the bowl, before allowing it to rise again. Knocking back is just squishing it up again, so I don't think this is the cause of the issue.
I've found that with bread recipes, the volume of the loaf (inversly proportional to the density for a given weight of flour) is directly related to the yeast content.
I've had lovely thick bread from book recipes, that fills you up with a couple of slices, and then following the recipes on the yeast packets (which involve twice as much yeast funnily enough) give lovely light loaves, which overflowed all over the oven the first time, as I wasn't expecting that much bread!
Apart from the yeast content make sure you use warm water for making the dough and try keeping it in an airing cupboard whilst rising. The yeast also requires some sugar aswell to do it's thing and fart those lovely pockets of air into the bread.
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Yes, it should prove twice, with a "knock back" in between. It will only rise in the oven if it has already risen and has all the little bubbles ready to expand.
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I did the knock back thing with the last loaf, which is slightly bigger than the previous ones but not much. I think I needed to let it rise a bit more after the second kneading.
I want fluffy bread! Maybe I'll try doubling the yeast and seeing if that improves it. Been using warm water and a bit of sugar, so that's not the issue.
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Let it rise in the tin, as bread's not like cakes - cooking doesn't make it rise lots more.
Home-made bread is often under-salted too, and salt makes stretchy gluten makes light bread.
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My latest attempt (I tried posting a moment ago but seem to have failed) was a fluffy springy delight - taken from a recipe for "Mantovana olive oil bread" by Marcella Hazan. We ate both loaves in the space of a few hours. Two three-hour stints in the airing cupboard with a thorough knocking back in between.
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I've been making home made bread recently, and although it's mainly been successful (apart from the first one which was squidgy inside) I've been getting squat, compact little loaves. The dough rises exactly like it's meant to, but doesn't seem to get any bigger when it's been baked. It's good bread, just a bit stodgy.
The only thing I can think of is that I've been letting it rise in a bowl, then transferring it to a tin for baking. Maybe I should let it rise in the tin so that I don't have to handle it which seems to deflate it a bit before baking.
Any ideas?
Yep, what you're making is real bread, not some airy squidgy chewy pasty confection made by the "Chorleywood" process. The bread you're getting is just as it should be, solid and nutricious.
DO try making some real sourdough, and also some real (and extremely messy) ciabbatta. The ferment for that takes several days, but the holey chewy tasty result is fantastic.
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If you want fluffy bread you need chemicals. Read up on the Chorleywood method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_Bread_Process). Yuk!!
I have never been able to get a fluffy loaf baking at home. Doesn't mean you can't of course... :)
Strong white flour rises so much better than wholemeal. I tend to mix my bread 75/25 strong white / wholemeal. 50/50 gives a really tasty loaf but rises much much less. 50/50 is great for adding seeds too imo.
/edit Cross post with rafletcher :thumbsup:
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I'd recommend reading 'Bread Matters' by Andrew Whitley - if anything, knowing what goes into mass-produced bread will easily make you persevere with your own. Made some great stotties from that (as well as others).
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Ah - I'm using granary bread flour, and adding seeds, so that might have something to do with it.
Chemicals in commercial bread is one reason I'm making my own - the other being that I can eat pretty much an entire loaf of Hovis and still be hungry a couple of hours later. My bread, stodgy or not, is much more filling. ;D
More salt, more yeast, rise in the tin, two provings. No airing cupboard but putting it next to a radiator works just as well (and keeps the cat happy). I'll report back on the next loaf. :thumbsup:
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Vitamin C powder helps as well, you can buy it from Holland and Barrett
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Vitamin C powder helps as well, you can buy it from Holland and Barrett
You have to ask - this is sold from "under the counter" in many places.
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Ah - I'm using granary bread flour, and adding seeds, so that might have something to do with it.
Chemicals in commercial bread is one reason I'm making my own - the other being that I can eat pretty much an entire loaf of Hovis and still be hungry a couple of hours later. My bread, stodgy or not, is much more filling. ;D
More salt, more yeast, rise in the tin, two provings. No airing cupboard but putting it next to a radiator works just as well (and keeps the cat happy). I'll report back on the next loaf. :thumbsup:
Liz
I use the oven to get the dough to rise. I just put in on at about 50deg while I'm kneading, and turn it off just before I put the dough in to rise (covered with clingfilm and a cloth). I use dried active yeast from a tin, which I activiate, rather than adding it to the dry ingredients.
Then I take it out after about 45 mins, when it has risen to 2 or 3 times the size, knock it back and, either in a tin, or not, makes no difference, put it in an oven at around 50deg for 10 mins, causing it to rise again, then whack up the heat to 200deg for another 20-25 mins or so. Obviously ovens vary, and the size of loaf you#re baking makes a difference etc etc. I also use granary flour.
HTH
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I wimp out and use a breadmaker (Panasonic). Ours gets used pretty much daily and I know the exact combination of ingredients to not only get perfect bread but bread that the critical Peeps in the family will enjoy eating! BTW, I don't bother adding vitamin C.
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I normally do:
- First rise in the bowl.
- Knock back (where needed)
- Second rise in the tin, then straight into the oven.
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Liz
I use the oven to get the dough to rise. I just put in on at about 50deg while I'm kneading, and turn it off just before I put the dough in to rise (covered with clingfilm and a cloth).
Likewise in winter. The other thing is to let it rise enough. Don't be timid about it. It should be about the size you want the finished loaf to be. Put it in a very hot oven and immediately turn down the temp to gas 5 or 150C.
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If you want fluffy bread you need chemicals. Read up on the Chorleywood method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_Bread_Process). Yuk!!
I have never been able to get a fluffy loaf baking at home. Doesn't mean you can't of course... :)
You can. No Chorleywood madness necessary.
Get "The Handmade Loaf" by Dan Lepard, or failing that, follow his method for a naturally leavened loaf:
8 am: mix ingredients, leave to stand.
8:10 am: knead the dough for 10 to 15 seconds (only!), leave to stand in the bowl
8:20 am: knead the dough for 10 to 15 seconds (only!), leave to stand in the bowl
8:30 am: knead the dough for 10 to 15 seconds (only!), leave to stand in the bowl
9 am: knead the dough for 10 to 15 seconds (only!), leave to stand in the bowl
10 am: knead the dough for 10 to 15 seconds (only!), leave to stand in the bowl
11 am: knead the dough for 10 to 15 seconds (only!), leave to stand in the bowl
1 pm: divide the dough into 500g balls, leave to stand on the worksurface
1:15 pm: leave the balls in flour-dusted cloths, in bowls, to stand until doubled in height (about 4.5 hours)
5:30 pm: stick it in the oven
If you can't be bothered to wait quite that long, and/or aren't using natural leaven, the basic principle still gives lovely fluffy loaves: knead sparingly, stand in between "kneads," and take half a day to do it. You can do other stuff in between kneads, so it's not actually that onerous.
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If you leave the dough to rise for a long time then you can get away with only one rising. I usually mix the dough in the morn and then knead and bake in the eve. Or you can mix the night before if you want to bake in the morn. One of the most useful Christmas pressies I ever recieved is 'Breadmaking at home' by Harold Bagust. I had only just started baking my own bread and this book seemed to be aimed just at my level.
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If you want fluffy bread you need chemicals. Read up on the Chorleywood method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_Bread_Process). Yuk!!
This is your common or garden "cotton wool" (as my mum used to call it) sliced loaf?
I tend to mix my bread 75/25 strong white / wholemeal.
That's more-or-less the mix I use. Miss Woofage likes wholemeal bread, Young Master W likes white :-\.
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Ah - I'm using granary bread flour, and adding seeds, so that might have something to do with it.
Chemicals in commercial bread is one reason I'm making my own - the other being that I can eat pretty much an entire loaf of Hovis and still be hungry a couple of hours later. My bread, stodgy or not, is much more filling. ;D
More salt, more yeast, rise in the tin, two provings. No airing cupboard but putting it next to a radiator works just as well (and keeps the cat happy). I'll report back on the next loaf. :thumbsup:
That should do it. Wholemeal flour/seeds etc tends to shear the gluten - so more yeast, and or longer rising time - in my breadmaker experience. :)
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make sure you knead (?) it well.. you need the gluten to come out and make the dough elastic. Some people pull the dough apart, collect it, then pull it apart, until suddenly it becomes nice and elastic.
that said, I've never been able to make my wheat breads nearly as airy and light as my sour dough rye breads which aren't kneaded, just stirred ???
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Ah - I'm using granary bread flour, and adding seeds, so that might have something to do with it.
Chemicals in commercial bread is one reason I'm making my own - the other being that I can eat pretty much an entire loaf of Hovis and still be hungry a couple of hours later. My bread, stodgy or not, is much more filling. ;D
More salt, more yeast, rise in the tin, two provings. No airing cupboard but putting it next to a radiator works just as well (and keeps the cat happy). I'll report back on the next loaf. :thumbsup:
I use a mix of white flour and wholemeal. I've never had a problem with insufficient yeast- I normally use half the recommended amount and it rises fine. Prove for an hour in a bowl, shape in a tin or on a tray and prove for another hour, then bake. For a softer loaf try adding some porridge oats (10-20%). Another variation you could try is using milk (or a mix of milk and water), but boil it first.
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How much salt are you using. It helps with the rising.
As for heat to help rising: My Gramps was a master baker and his words ring in my ears: Knead your dough for ten minutes. Set it aside in a bowl with a slightly damp cloth over and leave it in the pantry1 for upto 2 hours. Knock back and knead again for a couple of minutes. Mix seeds, fruit etc as required during the second kneading. Put it in the tin / on the tray and leave for another hour. Then put it in the pre-heated oven.
1 Our pantry was a very cool place. We don't have a pantry so I just leave mine in a metal bowl on the kitchen worktop.
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If you want fluffy bread you need chemicals. Read up on the Chorleywood method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_Bread_Process). Yuk!!
I have never been able to get a fluffy loaf baking at home. Doesn't mean you can't of course... :)
You can. No Chorleywood madness necessary.
Get "The Handmade Loaf" by Dan Lepard, or failing that, follow his method for a naturally leavened loaf:
8 am: mix ingredients, leave to stand.
8:10 am: knead the dough for 10 to 15 seconds (only!), leave to stand in the bowl
8:20 am: knead the dough for 10 to 15 seconds (only!), leave to stand in the bowl
8:30 am: knead the dough for 10 to 15 seconds (only!), leave to stand in the bowl
9 am: knead the dough for 10 to 15 seconds (only!), leave to stand in the bowl
10 am: knead the dough for 10 to 15 seconds (only!), leave to stand in the bowl
11 am: knead the dough for 10 to 15 seconds (only!), leave to stand in the bowl
1 pm: divide the dough into 500g balls, leave to stand on the worksurface
1:15 pm: leave the balls in flour-dusted cloths, in bowls, to stand until doubled in height (about 4.5 hours)
5:30 pm: stick it in the oven
If you can't be bothered to wait quite that long, and/or aren't using natural leaven, the basic principle still gives lovely fluffy loaves: knead sparingly, stand in between "kneads," and take half a day to do it. You can do other stuff in between kneads, so it's not actually that onerous.
Interesting. I'll give it a try.
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I wimp out and use a breadmaker (Panasonic). Ours gets used pretty much daily and I know the exact combination of ingredients to not only get perfect bread but bread that the critical Peeps in the family will enjoy eating! BTW, I don't bother adding vitamin C.
We have a Panasonic too - solidly used for 1.5yrs. Fluffy bread - no problem, and 3 minutes prep. The mini aos don't tend to like my Rye/Buckwheat/Wholemeal experiments though... ;) Apparently commercial dried yeast has some vit c added, I don't add it either.
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I've been inspired to get the bread maker out of a cupboard, where it has been gathering dust since we had the new kitchen fitted. I've just put the ingredients in and set the timer, so when I wake up about six hours from now, I will be able to warm my hands on a fresh granary wholemeal loaf.
The yeast is the same tin that I was using last time the machine was in action, so I may be eating toasted brick for breakfast... but hey, at least it will be home-made toasted brick!
d.
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I too have a Panasonic breadmaker. I call mine Breadulon and he is our yeasty overlord. He just made a lovely quick white/rye loaf 'pon which I am feasting as I type. :thumbsup:
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Another happy panasonic user:
My recipe:
Yeast 1 tsp
Flour
Malthouse 100
Wholemeal 250
Scottish porrage oats 30
Rye flour 30
White flour 15
Total: 425
Sugar 1½ tbsp
Milk powder 1½ tbsp
Salt ¾ tsp
Vitamin C ½ tsp
Seeds
Linseed ½ tbsp
Sesame ½ tbsp
Poppy 1 tbsp
Hemp ½ tbsp
Pumpkin 1 tbsp
Sunflower 1½ tbsp
Water 310ml
Olive oil 15ml
Made on the medium wholemeal program, works best with a delayed start and chilled (or iced) water.
Makes a filling and low GI loaf
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Another happy Panasonic user. Got it last Christmas, haven't bought a bread since. We get through a loaf a day.
I'm surprised to hear people think salt helps rising. My understanding is that it stops yeast working as well. In other words, if you want more salt, you need to use more yeast.
My experience is that if you want fluffier bread, use more strong white in the mix.
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Salt makes the gluten more elastic, I forgot the salt last week and the loaf was much lower
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I reckon letting it rise by the radiator is too warm. Bread that rises in a cool place (I find) has a much better texture. You can even leave it to rise in the fridge overnight - just leave it until it's doubled in size, knock it back, shape it (or put it in the tin) and leave it to double in size again.
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I reckon letting it rise by the radiator is too warm. Bread that rises in a cool place (I find) has a much better texture. You can even leave it to rise in the fridge overnight - just leave it until it's doubled in size, knock it back, shape it (or put it in the tin) and leave it to double in size again.
Agree with that.
I used to make it in the morning, leave it in the fridge while I went to work (or just out in the cool kitchen in the winter) and then bake it when I got home.
Mmmm. Leek and potato soup and very fresh bread. :P :thumbsup:
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Lots of bread making here..
The Bread Book is very good.
I use a mix of strong white and granary - between 2:1 and 3:1. A random pich of salt (I'll use a wee bit more now) and olvie oil.
Lots of yeast. Lots of rising. We do about 1500g of flour at a go which makes four decent loaves.
I have been known to make the dough the night before, shape and place in the fridge. In the morning put it in the oven and turn on to 220C. 45 mins later (cup of tea and a snuggle) there is hot new bread..
Bread maker? Second rate IMHO.
By hand and all morning to do it. 15 mins to make the dough. then a few 5 min sessions to knock back (once) and place in the tins. Then put in the oven when it is almost big enough to be a loaf on it's own.
..d
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Bread maker? Second rate IMHO.
... but convenient if you go through a loaf a day and have no freezer.
I tend to do a 20-30% rye loaf, with 20-30% wholemeal and the rest (>50%) white. The machine won't cope with heavier mixes. Firstborn prefers mine to Falko's (http://www.falko.co.uk/edinburgh/breads_and_brezeln/index.html).
Which is nice, if not terribly discriminating.
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Bread maker? Second rate IMHO.
... but convenient if you go through a loaf a day and have no freezer.
Indeed. I wouldn't freeze home-made bread anyway. No point when you can have fresh. I admit that machine-made bread is slightly inferior to "proper" home-made bread but the former is still preferable to any shop-bought rubbish.
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Bread maker? Second rate IMHO.
Nice if you have the time. IMO a bread maker bread is good enough to spend my time on other things I prefer doing.
Horses for courses.
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...but the former is still preferable to any shop-bought rubbish.
Not if you go to a proper baker. There are still several around. Parkers in West Ealing, for instance, has early morning queues across the pavement. Their bread is particularly good.
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I reckon letting it rise by the radiator is too warm. Bread that rises in a cool place (I find) has a much better texture. You can even leave it to rise in the fridge overnight - just leave it until it's doubled in size, knock it back, shape it (or put it in the tin) and leave it to double in size again.
I strongly agree. Most of my extended family are Canadian. My mother emigrated after the war, and so did my father. I have a huge network of cousins, all farmers, and so there is quite a clutch of sourdough recipes in my mum's kitchen!
Long cool risings, the smallest amount of yeast, and a routine. It is the routine that makes bread easy. It's one of those things that becomes a chore if you forget this, and suddenly something quite natural no longer fits around everything else in your life.
I used to make the bread for my family every morning. A few minutes preparation before I went to bed, a cold first rising overnight, a quick knock back and final proving in the morning, and everything out of the oven before I went to work. Twenty minutes of real time, and maybe ten minutes washing up.
Do be careful not to use too much yeast. You might get an impressive rise, but the texture will be crap, and the bread will stale quickly.
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...but the former is still preferable to any shop-bought rubbish.
Not if you go to a proper baker.
I wasn't referring to "proper" bakeries. I used to live 3 doors away from a small family-owned bakery and their bread was heavenly!
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I never eat bread from supermarkets because I simply don't like it. I do like the baguettes when I go to France though, so do know how good bread can be. So I have thought about baking my own, but still haven't got around to trying it.
How long does the yeast keep? I bought some about 4 years ago in a moment of inspiration and it's well past it's date.
I'm interested that some of you say that you get better results from letting the yeast rise the bread in cool conditions. My science teacher at school taught me that yeast works best at around 37 celcius. Is yeast functioning at full speed too much for the structure of the bread?
Do you get better results from a slower and lower temperature bake? Or is it just a longer wait for the same result you'd get from the "proper" cooking time and temperature.
I only have a convection oven. I'd expect that a gas oven will give better results (crunchier skin) But I'm not buying a new oven and certainly not paying out thousands to have gas installed into my flat, assuming I'd get permission.
I may try this bread making malarky if I find the time and have it in mind. Having the two factors coming together is the trick.
But one day...
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You can find out if your old yeast is OK by adding a small amount to some tepid water with a little sugar and watching for bubbles after about half an hour. No bubble would mean the yeast is dead, but I think this is unlikely.
You are correct about leaving dough to rise in too warm a location; the gas bubbles which form just get too big.
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Lower temp and longer baking time gives a thicker crust, so does making a wetter dough or adding a tray of water in the bottom of the oven to create some steam. Why the type of oven would make a difference?
You can gets loads of advice on how to make bread with the best taste, texture, etc, but I'd ignore all that if you're just starting out. Just following the basic recipe that comes on the back of the yeast/flour packet will give you something better than anything you can buy from the supermarket, and of course you'll have the self-satisfaction of creating it yourself which always improves the taste :)
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And when you have made your own bread there is nothing like putting your own jam on it.. The current stocks of home grown and jammed stuff are running low.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3150/3038338427_ea9c3fc643_b.jpg)
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And when you have made your own bread there is nothing like putting your own jam on it..
I'll drink to that!
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That is lemon marmalade (kit stuff) augmented with quince from the garden. Orange Rhubarb and ginger jam. Grape (yes, scottish grapes) and blackberry jelly. And ginger root in fructose syrup (cos half the family respond badly to sucrose.)
All good stuff
..d
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You can find out if your old yeast is OK by adding a small amount to some tepid water with a little sugar and watching for bubbles after about half an hour. No bubble would mean the yeast is dead, but I think this is unlikely.
You are correct about leaving dough to rise in too warm a location; the gas bubbles which form just get too big.
I frequently add yeast to a sugar solution with a pinch or two or bicarb, to bubble CO2 into the fish tank as an additional carbon source for plants. :)
BTW, how many in your household can actually cut homemade bread properly? I think it may just be me here... :-\ ;)
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BTW, how many in your household can actually cut homemade bread properly? I think it may just be me here... :-\ ;)
Forget the homemade.. I seem to be the only one who can cut bread. And we have a decent bread knife so no excuses there.
..d
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BTW, how many in your household can actually cut homemade bread properly? I think it may just be me here... :-\ ;)
How do you cut bread properly? I normally make rolls, or just rip chunks of bread off.
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BTW, how many in your household can actually cut homemade bread properly? I think it may just be me here... :-\ ;)
How do you cut bread properly? I normally make rolls, or just rip chunks of bread off.
When it is still warm ;)
Seriously, cutting it along a plane perpendicular to the major axis of the loaf. Without crushing or otherwise mangling it.
..d
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Resurrecting this thread as I have started making my own bread. Just 2 small loaves on Saturday morning to last the weekend.
Actually it's difficult to make warm, fresh bread last an hour but I'm loving the whole process.
At my request I received "Dough" for my birthday (a fabulous book and DVD package). I've stuck to this basic loaf for a few weeks just to get it "off pat". Next I'll be trying something more Olivey
(http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u249/freddered/Home%20and%20Garden/Bread.jpg?t=1277236845)
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Looks lovely :thumbsup:.
Since the demise of our bread maker, I have been making bread more "manually" and I've become rather good at it! I bake most days, sometimes from start to finish, other times with dough from the day before that I leave to rise in the fridge over night.
Here's one I prepared earlier:
(http://woofage.co.uk/images/bread.jpg)
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A little bit of thread necromancy, but...
I've been making my own bagels for awhile. Usually with whole wheat flour and they've been decent. However, whenever I ventured into 'real' bread making, it was always disappointing. Sure, any fresh, warm bread is nice, but once it cooled down, it was dry and tasteless. I played with recipes, kneading techniques, proving temperatures, etc.
I then figured, that the only solution was to use sourdough, but my previous attempt at getting a starter fell short. (I am now in process of getting one going again)...however, some digging around led me to this book:
Amazon.com: Peter Reinhart's Artisan Breads Every Day (9781580089982): Peter Reinhart: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Peter-Reinharts-Artisan-Breads-Every/dp/1580089984)
The process for all the recipes is virtually the same: low amount of yeast, quick mixing/kneading and then prove in the fridge for min 12 hours (up to 4 days).
My first bread was ciabatta style (sans the oil) baguettes. I have never been able to get decent holes in my bread and even less getting a decent taste out of it, but my, this was amazing. Better than any bakery-bought white bread, I've ever had. Ever. Flour, salt, yeast, water. Nothing else was used to enhance the taste and nothing else was needed.
Even my wife, who's not a big bread fan (She's Korean), kept asking for more.
The process requires a bit of planning, but you can mix up a dough in 40 mins (4 times folding/stretching + rests), which can be done along other chores and prep for baking day is another 30-45 mins. If I plan it so that I bake twice a week, I wont have to buy bread ever and if I can maintain the quality, I wouldn't want to!.
Anyways..for anyone looking to improve their bread, I highly recommend that book. The recipes covers yeast based, sourdough, enriched breads (rye, sandwhich breads), and rich bread (danishes, croissant, etc).
I've made half-decent danish pastry before and are planning to attempt Reinhart's recipe this weekend (diet be damned!)
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More Reinhart recipes:
Took the 'Lean French Bread' recipe and mixed in some whole wheat and walnut and made two Boules.
(http://dl.dropbox.com/0/view/oii20kvsrtd38nm/Photo%20Feb%2025,%2011%2000%2020%20PM.jpg)
(Iphone picture, so apologies for the quality)
This calls for a lightly kneaded dough again to be proved in the fridge for minimum 12 hours (mine was 2 days). The bottom part of the dough was more sourdough starter like than I would have expected (wet, slimey, gassy), but the taste is amazing. I can believe how easy this is!.
10 minute initial mixing/kneading work, place in fridge. Then on baking day, you need to plan a little ahead.
Take dough out of fridge, shape in to breads, prove for 1.5 hours, bake. (Patiently wait for it to cool down enough), enjoy!.
I got a starter dough for a San Fransisco Sourdough bread in the fridge now and aim to bake on Sunday. (whole wheat/walnut again). Pastry will have to wait :)
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The French whole wheat walnut loaves were gobbled up in no time!
As I'm unlikely to have time to bake next week, I then had to bake for the whole week today and the rush produced mixed results.
The San Fransisco sourdough turned out reasonably well. I had a 50/50 whole wheat/white flour mix, but probably didn't increase the water enough, so it's a little on the dry side. It's also not as sweet as the French bread the other day, I guess both due to the sourdough nature and the increased whole wheat, so it's not as good a 'snacking bread'. However, it's still very good for sandwiches!!
I then also had a large batch of bagel dough ready. Again, with a 50/50 whole wheat ratio and it made the dough more dense and I struggled to shape them nicely. I cheat and make a ball and press a hole with my fingers. Maybe if I do it properly, they'll turn out nicer with this dough?.
I also forgot to lower the oven temperature after putting them in, so they were already very brown when I turned the sheet around and I had to lower the temp and bake them for longer as the bottom wasn't baked properly. Oh well. They're still eatable.
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2384825/Photo%20Feb%2027%2C%202%2044%2038%20PM.jpg)
(More Iphone imagery)
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Jakob, they look really good. Even with the iphone picture quality, you can see that they have proper bread texture.
So do you have a starter going now? How easy is it to keep it alive? Do you have to feed it regularly?
d.
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I'm glad I found this thread. I'm so obsessed with making bread, this is something I only started 12 month back and very rarely buy bread from the supermarket / shops nowadays. Last night I made two 12" pizzas all for myself !
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Jakob, they look really good. Even with the iphone picture quality, you can see that they have proper bread texture.
So do you have a starter going now? How easy is it to keep it alive? Do you have to feed it regularly?
d.
Good question. I just plunked my in the fridge, but re-reading this:
Sourdough Home - Storing a Starter
(http://www.sourdoughhome.com/storingastarter.html)
I have apparently done it way too early.
Hmmm. Ok, I'll better get back to regular feeding again!
I was going to return to the ciabatta & french bread anyway. I also want to make a proper Danish rye bread, but that'll have to wait until my schedule clears up a bit.
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Once my starter was alive and kicking I just plonked it in the fridge for up to 3+ weeks until I needed it. It's surprisingly hardy.
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I'm tempted to give it a go.
d.
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Try it! Just be aware that for the first few days it'll froth whilst everything (including the stuff you don't want) tries to grow, then it appears to die for a few days, before coming back to life at which point its a sourdough starter.
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My wife makes all of our bread, and it is far better than anything from the supermarket.
I've been trying (mostly unsucessfully) to make sourdough since Christmas. The "starter" is fine - it lives in the fridge and gets fed every week, and I assume it is fine as it does just what the book says it will - feed it and it gets all lively, then settles down and eventually ends up with a very strong smell after a week or so! (a bit like the teenagers we've got, except they don't live inside the fridge). The problem is the dough. I've been using the Rivercottage recipe as well as Linda Collister's. Both give a fairly strong tasting bread, the crust is chewy as descibed and the bubbles/holes in the bread are uneven in size as they should be. The main problem is getting the dough to support its self. The first go resulted in a huge soughdough pizza base, the last one was baked in a cassarole dish, and was OK, but a but undercooked and solid.
Jokob and Woofage's loaves look ace! Our best one to date is a white French flour with poppy seeds added (but not sourdough, a standard yeast one)- excellent flavour.
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Have you tried reducing the amount of water? Are you leaving it to rise too long, or in too warm an area, or using insufficient salt (which is meant to retard the yeast activity)?
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The last one deffinately had too much water - moral add the water carefully, don't blindly follow the recipe. I don't think that over-proving is a problem, possibly not enough salt as we are carefull how much we use.
One batch which was OK was made following the Rivercottage book (Dan Lepard I think) and it was described as being softer than normal dough - which it was. When it had risen, supported by a floured tea towel, and a couple of strategic tins it partiall deflated/collapsed as it was transfered to the oven (and the support removed). It tasted fine, but was a bit flat so not much use for sandwiches.
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I wonder how much the location changes the flavour of sourdough? I'm sure I've read that it influenced it quite a lot - -for example NYC, but I'd be inclined to think it was more to do with flour used and the atmospheric temperature.
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I returned to the first recipe again (Ciabatta style baguettes) and the result was even better. (I've now got a better feel for the dough, but also a better idea of baking times/temps in our oven).
This is an amazingly simple bread to make and the taste is extremely good.
The batch :
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2384825/Photo%20Mar%2005%2C%209%2037%2024%20PM.jpg)
The crumb:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2384825/Photo%20Mar%2005%2C%209%2036%2050%20PM.jpg)
The freshly made sandwich that is about to disappear!
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2384825/Photo%20Mar%2005%2C%209%2036%2014%20PM.jpg)
Only problem is that all that bread will gone tomorrow!
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Wow, they look *fantastic*.
Good bread is truly one of lifes simplest yet greatest pleasures.
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I wanna up my game in the bread department. Jacobs bread looks class and its what Im after
So how do I go about getting them large air pockets into my bread for a nice fluffy texture ?
Thanks.
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I wanna up my game in the bread department. Jacobs bread looks class and its what Im after
So how do I go about getting them large air pockets into my bread for a nice fluffy texture ?
Thanks.
Properly developed (slow rise) dough and high water content. The water will expand and evaporate during baking, generating the pockets, but without a good enough developed dough, the structure wont support it.
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I wanna up my game in the bread department. Jacobs bread looks class and its what Im after
So how do I go about getting them large air pockets into my bread for a nice fluffy texture ?
Thanks.
Properly developed (slow rise) dough and high water content. The water will expand and evaporate during baking, generating the pockets, but without a good enough developed dough, the structure wont support it.
Do you spray the top of the dough with water before baking? I've read that this is useful to allow maximum rise by ensuring the surface is flexible. I don't do this for "normal" dough as I cover it with a wet muslin whilst proving the dough.
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No, I have a roasting tray in the bottom of the oven, where I throw in a cup of water after putting the dough in. This creates enough steam to create a nice crust.
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When I used to be a baker we actually used to spray water from a hose with a spray trigger into the oven immediately after loading the trays or tins of bread.
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For a long time the bread I made was well risen, but did not keep its shape(think cowpat). I was then given a 6 hour baking course (COBS Cambridge) which taught not only how to make bread, but also how to handle the dough.
This has transformed the rolls from flat, to something looking proffessional.
During the final kneading/handling it is to do with the formation of a skin on the dough, which then holds its shape, and allows other tricks as well
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I have no problem getting a crust on my bread, but it doesn't stay crusty like shop bought bread. I assume this is because there is continuous steam in the commercial ovens, or is it something else?
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I now got my wholewheat walnut bread nailed, with a 4/3 white/wholewheat flour and a handful of chopped walnuts.
Reduced oven temperature to 425 and 12/19 minutes. (12 minutes, turn the plate around and then another 19 minutes).
I think I touch the dough for less than 15 minutes, including shaping it. (I'm still a bit slow shaping the boules).
Next time, I'll attempt to make breakfast sizes rolls, which will hopefully reduce consumption a bit, as we gobbled down a whole boule yesterday.
As for keeping crust, I think it depends on how quickly you bag it. I haven't yet found the right balance, but I don't mind the soft crust too much, as it's still very tasty.
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I am experimentating with my breadmaker today. I never make bread by hand because despite my excellence with cake, muffins, scones and buns, I am bloody hopeless at bread. I had some soya milk left over so decided to use it for bread and found a recipe for coconut bread. I am a bit anxious because the recipe pamphlet is by Allinsons and the recipes are made up for a Morphy Richards, but my breadmaker is a Kenwood. The recipe says the coconut bread is for the small white loaf cycle, but looking at the weight of the ingredients, it looks more like a large cycle for my Kenwood. So I've put it in on a large white cycle and we shall see.
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The coconut bread is delicious.
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This calls for a lightly kneaded dough again to be proved in the fridge for minimum 12 hours (mine was 2 days). The bottom part of the dough was more sourdough starter like than I would have expected (wet, slimey, gassy), but the taste is amazing. I can believe how easy this is!.
10 minute initial mixing/kneading work, place in fridge. Then on baking day, you need to plan a little ahead.
Take dough out of fridge, shape in to breads, prove for 1.5 hours, bake. (Patiently wait for it to cool down enough), enjoy!.
What do you store the dough in when it's in the fridge? I've (sort of) done this method but the dough ends up almost overflowing the container.
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This calls for a lightly kneaded dough again to be proved in the fridge for minimum 12 hours (mine was 2 days).
What do you store the dough in when it's in the fridge? I've (sort of) done this method but the dough ends up almost overflowing the container.
I use a normal mixing bowl, it shouldn't increase in size by more than double. If it's overflowing then maybe there's too much yeast, insufficient salt, or the water was too warm to begin with.
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I should have some bread making ingredients coming from Mr Sainsbury tonight, so hopefully I will get baking this week. I will report back on the consequences.....
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Pic of the noms:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7256/6896863426_c3c5f851ef_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/6896863426/)
IMG_0216 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/6896863426/) by The Pingus (http://www.flickr.com/people/the_pingus/), on Flickr
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It's Delia's Walnut & Raisin bread and I think it's quite good if I say so myself!
It appeared to get the flippers up from Pingu too :P
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So, glossing swiftly over the pizza incident....
On Saturday I bought Bread Matters. I consulted it for what to do about rolls, as I'd decided I wanted to use the 2nd half of a bag of Doves Farm Barleycorn Flour to make rolls. Sort of burger size rolls I was thinking of, rather than small dinner rolls.
So I did as suggested, made spheres, flattened them out a bit and put them 2cm apart to make them batch. It also said to put the heat up a bit to try to get it to penetrate & cook the middle without turning the outside into a biscuit.
My observations: when I first took them out they weren't done in the middle. I popped them back in and turned the oven down cos the outside was fine.
When I took them out for the last time they: a)looked like scones or rock cakes, b)were quite golden, c)tasted ok warm, d) they hadn't batched'
But after they'd cooled they were a bit too biscuity on the outside and wanted to fall to pieces if I tried to cut them in half.
My thoughts now are that I should have cooked them at a cooler temperature, despite what the book said.
Any roll tips?
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What temperature were you using?
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Leiths' says to cover rolls with a damp tea towel for the second half of their baking, in order to get nice soft floury baps.
So far for me, this has merely resulted in crispy brown tea towels. :-\
<----- Not very good at bread.
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What temperature were you using?
Good question. Do you want the quoted temperature, the increase for rolls, the subtraction for it being a fan oven or the extra subtraction for it being hotter than it says on the tin?
I can't remember, sorry :(
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Leiths' says to cover rolls with a damp tea towel for the second half of their baking, in order to get nice soft floury baps.
So far for me, this has merely resulted in crispy brown tea towels. :-\
<----- Not very good at bread.
How long did you crisp your tea towels for? ;)
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Well, you shouldn't really have to bother. If you aren't aiming at Baguette stylee (altogether another experience involving flour, temperature, moisture) it really doesn't matter.
You will not achieve a shop bought steam-driven crispness, for the most part, and it is easiest ensured by a quick crisp up before you serve, if that's what you want.
Stop worrying about temperature. Find the one that works with your over somewhere between 180 and 200 for most fan ovens) and take the bread out when it's done. Rolls would be around 15-20 minutes, bread around 30 - 35. When it sounds hollow it is done. If it is in a tin, put it back in for a couple of minutes after taking out the tin.
Oh. And turning the heat up to cook the middle while not burning the outside may possibly have been printed on April 1st.
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Well jI was quite happy with temperature for my loaves, it was just the rolls.
The Bread Matters I just bought says very hot oven (230C) for 5m then down to 210, as little as 12-15m. Bollox. I wish i'd stuck to Dan Lepard now.
I shall have another experiment again. Just cook rolls at the same temp as loaves then?
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I would, certainly. For a lighter texture, you need to keep the outer crust elastic for as long as possible, that's what (commercial) steam baking does. I have experimented with a tin of boiling water in the bottom of the oven to try to simulate that with some success, but a commercial style long lasting, light, crust is nigh on impossible to achieve. I got my best baguette simulacrum using 50 - 70% Italian pasta flour. The only issue of using a constant lower temperature for baking everything is that the moisture inside the loaf will soften the crust on leaving, which putting back in the oven for a couple of minutes before serving will sort.
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If I post this picture perhaps it will be cool enough for me to slice now...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_qmGkWDN-0Y/UHK08YZJZpI/AAAAAAAAkJM/b_PyUFxfmmo/s640/IMG_0683.JPG)
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Yes ;D ;D ;D