Base training

[chrisbainbridge]

There seems to be a suggestion as well that if you get caught in the trap of low cadence, masive force required, then back pedalling is the thing to do.  This may be TR specific though.

[Pedal Castro]

There seems to be a suggestion as well that if you get caught in the trap of low cadence, masive force required, then back pedalling is the thing to do.  This may be TR specific though.

Similar for SF but that messes up my average power stats for the interval which is how I track my progress week to week.

[L CC]

I'm not caught in the spiral of death. It's just lag lag lag.

[Frank9755]

I had a bit of that when I was using Power Match on TR.  It could take up to a minute to adjust to the new power at the start of an interval.

[simonp]

I don’t think the kickr or the Neo have this lag. I used powermatch for a while and it seemed to work well.

I should record some workouts with a separate pm without powermatch to see.

[Phil W]

Today, did Tacx Bushido smart in slope mode doing high gear low cadence work.   It was solid on the resistance.  Will increase angle of slope it is simulating next go. But low cadence (around 50) did not cause it an issue. This is using the Tacx training app.

[L CC]

I don’t think the kickr or the Neo have this lag. I used powermatch for a while and it seemed to work well.

I should record some workouts with a separate pm without powermatch to see.

They don't show this lag.

Elite's line is that this is because they massage smooth the output figures to such an extent it disguises it. I'm not sure how true I think this is- even the Vortex felt like it 'locked in' to a target power more and sooner than this does. This feels like a bike, not a spin bike. You can't switch from 150W to 350W in a nano second, that's not how legs work.

I did the workout pictured the day I got the trainer and promptly arranged to have it sent back. After riding it for a weekend and (getting a man in to do) some research, I decided to keep it.
Pfft, I paid £600 for it. I can live with 1 minute intervals that are 30 seconds later than expected.

[zigzag]

from what i've read i think there is a short gradual transition (2-3s) from say 150->350w on trainerroad at least, and that's how it feels on my trainer (flux s). longer lag indicates there is something not as it's supposed or designed to be. when we press on the pedals on our bikes outside we apply the power instantly because we are in charge when to sprint/accelerate. on erg mode we have to ride reactively and a couple of seconds of smoothing to adjust the legs to required intensity is a good thing.

30s on 30s off:


3 × 12min near threshold:

[Frank9755]

Are you using a power meter, or the trainer's measurement of power?
I get those kind of sharp adjustments and smooth lines if I use my trainer to measure power.  But I can feel that the measurements are not right.

[DuncanM]

I'm not caught in the spiral of death. It's just lag lag lag.

That picture looks like the white line (cadence?) is rising up into the interval. I find that if I spin up as the the interval starts then it gets really confused and will let the resistance stay low because it is seeing the increase in cadence as the start of a power spike.  I had loads of strange behaviour when I started because I was used to trying to achieve the power changes with my legs/gears. I'm finding it much better now I just try to keep my cadence the same and let the erg deal with changing the resistance to correct the power.

[Chris S]

The inverse of that of course is if you don't start to anticipate the interval with increased cadence, you get bogged down into the spiral of deth when it ramps up from 100 to 400W.

But that's partly the issue I have with some of these apps - the use of the word "Ramp" when they mean "Step"; a ramp is generally much easier to handle than a step. The background chatter on the Elite forums about the Drivo in Erg Mode was all about how you can never get a nice tidy looking graph like zigzag's - it's always a bag of spaghetti like fboab's.

We still bought them though, because there's no other way to get 98%+ power accuracy in a sub £1000 trainer. For all their Erg Mode weirdness, the Drivos have awesome accuracy.

[L CC]

I think the workout was requesting 90-100 for the intervals and 80-85 for the rest period? I can't remember, I'm not doing TR workouts at the moment, they don't work with my trainer...
I have the same problem on Zwift but it's harder to get pretty pictures to demonstrate quite so clearly what's happening.

[zigzag]

Are you using a power meter, or the trainer's measurement of power?
I get those kind of sharp adjustments and smooth lines if I use my trainer to measure power.  But I can feel that the measurements are not right.

i've tried both ways before and did not find much difference compared to stages, but the power line drawn with the stages pm is more choppy as it's measured closer to source and the power only comes from the left side doubled up.

[L CC]

when we press on the pedals on our bikes outside we apply the power instantly because we are in charge when to sprint/accelerate. on erg mode we have to ride reactively and a couple of seconds of smoothing to adjust the legs to required intensity is a good thing.

Elite claim that because the optical power meter in the trainer reports the actual power you're putting out, you inevitably have a lag as your (my) legs will over-react to the big jump in resistance and there is a balancing as the surge in power from the legs automatically tells the trainer to reduce the resistance. What they claim does make sense, kinda, but does not make pretty graphs and does make it a PITA for short hard efforts. The lag on the up is possibly slightly less annoying than the bottom falling out on the drop to the rest phase.

[Frank9755]

That picture looks like the white line (cadence?) is rising up into the interval. I find that if I spin up as the the interval starts then it gets really confused and will let the resistance stay low because it is seeing the increase in cadence as the start of a power spike.  I had loads of strange behaviour when I started because I was used to trying to achieve the power changes with my legs/gears. I'm finding it much better now I just try to keep my cadence the same and let the erg deal with changing the resistance to correct the power.

That is what I am experiencing. The trainerroad commentary was actually avoiding me to do that, increase cadence just before the start of the interval. But I found that if you increase cadence the resistance goes down although the trainer power measurement goes up. Next time I'll try not increasing cadence.

[Frank9755]

Trainerroad support has told me that they find the Tacx Vortex doesn't work very well with powermatch...

Otherwise, I've just abandoned a workout a third of the way in.  I was finding it a bit tough, not sure why.  Also I was under time pressure as I have something at 1pm and had a phone call as I was about to start.  Then I knocked another bike over when reaching for my towel, so stopped to pick it up.  Re-started but the combination of all that meant I really didn't feel up to it, so decided I'd stop to make sure I'm on top form for the next one on Sunday.

[Pedal Castro]

I love my Drivo but short, really hard efforts are shite on it. The combination of real, unsmoothed power (it's a feature, not a bug) and all that lag (see 'feature') mean that for anything less than a couple of minutes it takes so long to get there that I don't think it's actually doing the job the workout intended. It also takes bloody forever to re-set downwards so I spin out and it overcompensates.

Is that in ERG mode? I've just started trying trying ERG mode after a year using slope mode and although it seems fine for some workouts, anything over FTP makes it descend into a strength session. Directo not Drivo but I guess the firmware logic is similar. I assumed the issue was with the Sufferfest app I use but maybe not...?

I don't know what app you are using, but the key I've found is to be spinning at a high cadence (>95 rpm) in the 10 seconds before the high power interval starts. If I do that (TR with Tacx Bushido Smart) then the second the interval starts the resistance spikes, but it settles down very quickly. If I'm not paying attention or spinning really slowly for some reason, then the resistance flies up, I can't maintain the low rpm and as I drop the rpm the resistance gets worse and it's a downward spiral.
Apologies if that's teaching anyone to suck eggs - I'm new to erg mode too.

That's a good tip but it's not the start of the interval I get the problem, it was around 2-3 minutes in (in a 4' interval). Sort of solved now by using a bigger gear so there is more inertia in the flywheel and a slight easing therefore doesn't descend into the Spiral of Death. A good analogy I heard (the Shane Miller video I think) was it's like stepping off the gas on the flat to tighten a shoe strap compared to doing that while going up a steep hill.

[DuncanM]

I find there's a balance between a big enough gear to provide some flywheel, and a small enough gear that you can get down to ~100W. 50x22 makes this just about doable, any higher than that and I find that I can't get the power low enough.
Today's workout was OK - I didn't have enough time for the whole thing, so I skipped the penultimate set (and a bit of rest time). Next time I'll try to drop a bit of rest between each interval. I looked up the -1 version, but that had a ramp up and ramp down without the minute at 105% of FTP, and I wanted to accumulate time above FTP as well as ramping up and down. I also put it to 101% (didn't want to push it so high that the "under" was too high).
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/48900686-avalanche-spire-1

I've got one more workout left before a rest week. It's a 3x20 at 95%, so it's going to be a test of mentality above anything else I think. I'm definitely more capable than I was at the start of the build, but I'm looking forward to the rest week, so I think It's come at the right time. I usually skip Tuesday, and pick a random ride on Thursday - I might even see what Baxter is like in erg mode. I'm curious to see what the Ramp is going to tell me in 10 days...

[Pedal Castro]

2-3 minutes is apparently the best recovery period for these sort of intervals, with no benefit beyond 3’. (No doubt someone will be along to pick me up on this asking for citations )

A look at your HR or W’ balance tracks will give you a good time insight as whether to try 2, 2.5, or 3’ recovery periods.

[DuncanM]

I've no idea what W' is! My HR is down in the low 100s after 2 minutes, and ends up around 100 before I start the next interval after 4 minutes. So I could easily lop 1 minute off the recovery period - if I was being ambitious then 2. I'll try it next time I end up time crunched on one of these rides - thanks. 

[LMT]

2-3 minutes is apparently the best recovery period for these sort of intervals, with no benefit beyond 3’. (No doubt someone will be along to pick me up on this asking for citations )

A look at your HR or W’ balance tracks will give you a good time insight as whether to try 2, 2.5, or 3’ recovery periods.

Trevor

[Phil W]

Depends on what you are trying to improve.  Shorter rest intervals can improve your body's ability to process the chemicals still in your blood stream from the high intensity intervals. Also depends what intensity intervals you are doing.

[rob]

My bloke is quite traditional.  You start out with a session and, over the course of the block, the reps lengthen and the recoveries shorten.

This week has been moved around a bit by real life.  Delaying one day has meant that the hard Thu session has only just been done and I feel a bit sick.  Tomorrow’s early session and longer road ride may prove a little interesting.

[simonp]

I felt a bit sick towards the end of my 5k test on the rowing machine last night. Why do we do this?

[rob]

I felt a bit sick towards the end of my 5k test on the rowing machine last night. Why do we do this?

There’s a few things I still want to achieve in TTs.  I enjoy the rush but the work getting there may become unsustainable.  That and I’m 46 on Sunday and there’s a chance I’m past it.