How to plan training without an idea of goals?

[TPMB12]

A bit of an unusual question perhaps but I want to do some training but can't nail down my ideas on goal or target of the training. If you have no defined place to get to then how can you work out a training plan?

I only know that i want to get fitter. Faster when on my own, stronger cyclist when fully loaded whilst touring and able to cycle further when on my own. These are vague ideas but not really what i think are goals to plan for.

So the only thing I'm doing is to cycle to work like normal and get a smart turbo trainer for improving performance. A couple of years commuting has not given me any improvement beyond the first 3months when i got an initial quick improvement. I'm thinking turbo training in the winter will suit me and get improvements. My personality tend to mean that I want a measurable improvement and a goal to allow a success. That's where i come stuck. Any ideas?

As i said a strange question. Guess I'm asking for a direction for my training. I'm not going to race, do a sportive or epic tour. Nothing to train for so no test to show whether it's been a success.

[The Rolfster]

A bit of an unusual question perhaps but I want to do some training but can't nail down my ideas on goal or target of the training. If you have no defined place to get to then how can you work out a training plan?

I only know that i want to get fitter. Faster when on my own, stronger cyclist when fully loaded whilst touring and able to cycle further when on my own. These are vague ideas but not really what i think are goals to plan for.

So the only thing I'm doing is to cycle to work like normal and get a smart turbo trainer for improving performance. A couple of years commuting has not given me any improvement beyond the first 3months when i got an initial quick improvement. I'm thinking turbo training in the winter will suit me and get improvements. My personality tend to mean that I want a measurable improvement and a goal to allow a success. That's where i come stuck. Any ideas?

As i said a strange question. Guess I'm asking for a direction for my training. I'm not going to race, do a sportive or epic tour. Nothing to train for so no test to show whether it's been a success.

You probably just need to focus on increasing your Functional Threhold Power (FTP), which is the maximum power you can sustain for an hour.  A smart trainer such as the Wahoo Kickr will measure your power output and allow you to do an FTP test to set an initial benchmark.  You can then follow a structured training program such as those found on Trainer Road or Zwift aimed at increasing your FTP.  By performing test every 3 or 4 weeks you will (hopefully) be able to see measurable improvements in power.  This will equate to greater speed on the road.

[TPMB12]

Just bought a tacx flow for £189. Supposedly it's like the satori but Bluetooth. Two way feedback between turbo and app. Cheapest way of getting interactive with zwift or similar. I'm planning on using that. New to turbo training so didn't want to spend much more.

Don't you have to do a hard workout and repeat it within a week to work ftp out? Read something about it but didn't really take it in. IIRC a 20minute and an 8 minute test. Also heard about a Carmichael test???

Then isn't there a training using the power like you do with a hrm? Work to a percentage of a maximum figure? In power zones? Or have i got that totally wrong?

[The Rolfster]

Just bought a tacx flow for £189. Supposedly it's like the satori but Bluetooth. Two way feedback between turbo and app. Cheapest way of getting interactive with zwift or similar. I'm planning on using that. New to turbo training so didn't want to spend much more.

Don't you have to do a hard workout and repeat it within a week to work ftp out? Read something about it but didn't really take it in. IIRC a 20minute and an 8 minute test. Also heard about a Carmichael test???

Then isn't there a training using the power like you do with a hrm? Work to a percentage of a maximum figure? In power zones? Or have i got that totally wrong?

If you use Zwift in workout mode there is an option to carry out an FTP test.  This is a takes about an hour and includes one flat out 20 minute effort.  Zwift will tell you what your FTP is based on this 20 minute segment. 

Knowing your FTP is vital if you you want to follow any sort of structured training program.  As you say specific sessions need to be done in certain zones, these zones will be related to your FTP.  Luckily Zwift works all of this out for you.  Having established your FTP benchmark you can then follow one of the training plans such as the FTP Builder or 12 week winter training plan.  Zwift will control the resistance to make sure you are working at the correct power level.

[citoyen]

A bit of an unusual question perhaps but I want to do some training but can't nail down my ideas on goal or target of the training. If you have no defined place to get to then how can you work out a training plan?

More to the point, why do you want to?

The whole point of 'training' is to work towards a goal, isn't it?

I don't think it is possible to answer the question without having an idea of what you want to achieve. And that would mean setting some kind of target...

[jamesld8]

Surely the OP idea of getting faster on own, stronger when touring are goals anyway ? It`s just not a specific easily measurable and quantifiable goal but OP can experience it by feeling faster / stronger after doing some training (eg by riding faster )

[citoyen]

Surely the OP idea of getting faster on own, stronger when touring are goals anyway ?

Quite.

You can take a very simple approach, eg 'ride more miles', 'push harder', and you may find that it improves your speed and strength, but...

It`s just not a specific easily measurable and quantifiable goal but OP can experience it by feeling faster / stronger after doing some training (eg by riding faster )

...that isn't 'training', that's just riding a bike.

I would say it only becomes 'training' if you quantify your goals and come up with a structured plan to work towards them.

This is the problematic bit:

I'm not going to race, do a sportive or epic tour. Nothing to train for so no test to show whether it's been a success.

Training also needs to have a time element - ie you have a fixed point in the future that you're working towards. Otherwise, you can't measure the results.

This makes me think back to the days when I was doing a lot of commuting mileage. I did get much stronger and faster. It wasn't just the miles though: most of the time I would be pushing quite hard - unless I was tired or just felt like taking it easy - so that really helped develop my strength and speed, but it wasn't with any objective in mind so I wouldn't call it training in any meaningful sense. I did get faster on audaxes but that was a byproduct rather than a target.

[zigzag]

raising your ftp as said upthread will make you faster overall, you would be riding faster with a steady higher output. you can go up the hills as hard as you can on your "normal" rides, that will also help to get fitter in the long run.

[The Rolfster]

Surely the OP idea of getting faster on own, stronger when touring are goals anyway ?

Quite.

You can take a very simple approach, eg 'ride more miles', 'push harder', and you may find that it improves your speed and strength, but...

It`s just not a specific easily measurable and quantifiable goal but OP can experience it by feeling faster / stronger after doing some training (eg by riding faster )

...that isn't 'training', that's just riding a bike.

I would say it only becomes 'training' if you quantify your goals and come up with a structured plan to work towards them.

This is the problematic bit:

I'm not going to race, do a sportive or epic tour. Nothing to train for so no test to show whether it's been a success.

OP wants to get faster and raising his FTP will achieve this.  This might not meet your own strict definition of "training" but that's a bit of an academic discussion to be honest.

Training also needs to have a time element - ie you have a fixed point in the future that you're working towards. Otherwise, you can't measure the results.

This makes me think back to the days when I was doing a lot of commuting mileage. I did get much stronger and faster. It wasn't just the miles though: most of the time I would be pushing quite hard - unless I was tired or just felt like taking it easy - so that really helped develop my strength and speed, but it wasn't with any objective in mind so I wouldn't call it training in any meaningful sense. I did get faster on audaxes but that was a byproduct rather than a target.

OP wants to get faster and raising his FTP will achieve this.  This might not meet your own strict definition of "training" but that's a bit of an academic discussion to be honest.

[citoyen]

OP wants to get faster and raising his FTP will achieve this.

'Raising your FTP' is a well-defined training goal.

You mentioned structured training plans in a previous post. How can you have a structure if you don't have a target and a timescale?

[rob]

Rather than worry about power numbers why don't you ride hard round your local favourite ride and record the time.   You then have a benchmark to work to and see if you can improve.   There will be weather factors but if you ride it regularly around your training you can see if you're getting faster.

In Nicole Cooke's autobiography she referred to a local mountain loop she rode in South Wales.   Her times on that circuit indicated her form as she was building towards big events.

[simonp]

You can have structure. e.g. follow a 12-week base training plan (that's where I would start). At the end of that plan, you can decide what to do next e.g. repeat the base plan, or repeat half of it, or move onto a build plan, such as a sustained power plan, a maintenance plan, a general fitness plan.

No need to have a target event. The goal can be a vague "be stronger", or more precise (e.g. more endurance, more better short power, better climbing).

The FTP number is useful for setting the workout intensity to match your ability.

[The Rolfster]

OP wants to get faster and raising his FTP will achieve this.

'Raising your FTP' is a well-defined training goal.

You mentioned structured training plans in a previous post. How can you have a structure if you don't have a target and a timescale?

I suspect you are over-thinking this and in the process not really helping the OP that much.

[The Rolfster]

You can have structure. e.g. follow a 12-week base training plan (that's where I would start). At the end of that plan, you can decide what to do next e.g. repeat the base plan, or repeat half of it, or move onto a build plan, such as a sustained power plan, a maintenance plan, a general fitness plan.

No need to have a target event. The goal can be a vague "be stronger", or more precise (e.g. more endurance, more better short power, better climbing).

The FTP number is useful for setting the workout intensity to match your ability.

+1

[citoyen]

I suspect you are over-thinking this and in the process not really helping the OP that much.

It's talk of FTP that's over-thinking it. I think rob has it right - all the OP needs to do to achieve his stated aims is 'ride a bit more' and 'push a bit harder', which is what I did to achieve the same outcome (ie getting stronger and faster) a few years ago with considerable success.

[rob]

I think rob has it right

There's a first for everything.

[TPMB12]

TBH i push it on my commute a lot. Got me to a reasonable time compared to my initial slow times. The trouble is doing this ended up with slower times more recently. Summer i was almost 10% faster in the summer. Nothing has changed in that time. Same route, kit and effort.

Goals seem to be focused, i get that. It makes sense to work towards the big sportive. Not doing such activity that has a fixed date means no easy goals. Doesn't mean I've not got some vague form of a goal.

From the days when i was almost always walking, backpacking or doing challenge events in the hills during my free time i reached a point where it took a lot to tire me out. The groups i walked with started off with me slower at the back but developed with me at the front or anywhere in the group with ease. No specific training just doing it often. Took a long time though. If I had some training regime i could have reached there sooner. This is kind of what I'm looking for. Train with focus to make my commute or federal riding or loaded touring easy.

So i guess i need to work out what goals meet this. Three activities to improve. Commute (faster but also easier so I'm less sweaty but still faster). General riding, for that i mean family ride with a slow partner and young child. The child is on child seat attached to my partner's bike or in a trailer attached to my bike. The latter is better since I'm a stronger rider but some way. The third activity I want to become easier = more enjoyable i loaded touring. That is camping kit indeed most of our family's kit since child is on partner's bike without much room for a full pannier set. I've usually towing a single wheel trailer too. Hard work at times, such as when my front derailleur got a bit stuck in the big chainring in a hilly area. Reckon my strength developed that ride.
So what exercise routine/training would suit those three activities? What would help me improve so things get easier? Is that not a goal? IMHO i reckon something that pushes me into a peak training zone in intervals might help. Isn't that the sort of thing that that sees good results? I guess these could improve my ftp. Perhaps look on one of those virtual trainers like zwift or trainerroad for training plans or routes to find something that helps me.

[Si S]

TBH i push it on my commute a lot. Got me to a reasonable time compared to my initial slow times. The trouble is doing this ended up with slower times more recently. Summer i was almost 10% faster in the summer. Nothing has changed in that time. Same route, kit and effort.

Goals seem to be focused, i get that. It makes sense to work towards the big sportive. Not doing such activity that has a fixed date means no easy goals. Doesn't mean I've not got some vague form of a goal.

From the days when i was almost always walking, backpacking or doing challenge events in the hills during my free time i reached a point where it took a lot to tire me out. The groups i walked with started off with me slower at the back but developed with me at the front or anywhere in the group with ease. No specific training just doing it often. Took a long time though. If I had some training regime i could have reached there sooner. This is kind of what I'm looking for. Train with focus to make my commute or federal riding or loaded touring easy.

So i guess i need to work out what goals meet this. Three activities to improve. Commute (faster but also easier so I'm less sweaty but still faster). General riding, for that i mean family ride with a slow partner and young child. The child is on child seat attached to my partner's bike or in a trailer attached to my bike. The latter is better since I'm a stronger rider but some way. The third activity I want to become easier = more enjoyable i loaded touring. That is camping kit indeed most of our family's kit since child is on partner's bike without much room for a full pannier set. I've usually towing a single wheel trailer too. Hard work at times, such as when my front derailleur got a bit stuck in the big chainring in a hilly area. Reckon my strength developed that ride.
So what exercise routine/training would suit those three activities? What would help me improve so things get easier? Is that not a goal? IMHO i reckon something that pushes me into a peak training zone in intervals might help. Isn't that the sort of thing that that sees good results? I guess these could improve my ftp. Perhaps look on one of those virtual trainers like zwift or trainerroad for training plans or routes to find something that helps me.

my bold

IME that's about right (10% slower) and something has changed - the conditions! They're a hell of a less co-operative in the winter. Are you sure the kit is the same? For me being togged up in baselayers, tights, jackets, boots makes a difference, I'm riding in a way to regulate body temperature as much as anything else.

The lack of light makes a difference too, the vast majority of folk ride much more cautiously in the wet and the dark.

[TPMB12]

Well last winter I had no slow down in winter apart from the windy days of course. Rain i had in all seasons and in some cases got me home quicker! Besides the slow down started early summer when i was riding in shorts. IIRC it was after a summer holiday tour, but a few weeks or more afterwards.

I had a brief speed up but dropped to the same slower speed. I had a long series of colds over the last quarter but the slow down doesn't coincide with them having started earlier.

[citoyen]

Could just be fatigue - which would also lead to increased likelihood of colds due to its effects on the immune system.

[LEE]

To keep it simple I'd find a pleasant local route that takes you about about 30 minutes to complete (with few if any reasons to stop, or coast, along the route).

Then I'd get a HRM and Strava, and link them.  Create a personal Strava segment for the 30 minute route.

Then, once, or twice, a week (max), I'd Time-Trial it as fast as I could.

Get home and log the Strava data:

Time for segment
Average Heart Rate
Estimated Power (Strava is pretty good at this).

Strava will show you a graph over time against your segment so you don't need to do much.

If you are honest about it, and really push hard, I'm confident you'll see rapid improvements, whether that's in reduced times or reduced heart-rates for the same times (which is actually very useful for fast touring).

Alternatively go out for an hour and plot three or four 5 Minute segments along the route and go "balls out" in each of those segments.  Either way, there's usually more gain to be had from short, intense, efforts than plodding around for hours without a plan.