BR vs BRM

[Ivan]

I upgraded The Shark to BRM this year, and I'm thinking of reverting to BR for next year, mainly so I can switch to instant validation and not have the hassle of post-processing all the brevet cards, labelling envelopes, etc. I've also had finishers right on the time limit, so feel that on a fairly challenging ride with a fair few first-timers, it's only right to give them as much time as possible to get round.

I agree the ACP stamp does add a touch of class, so I might just go BRM on alternate years (as I will have to for 2019) as a bit of variety...

[Manotea]

Instant validation isnt available at the moment for 300km and longer events so there is no extra hassle for the event org in making it a BRM, and the additional validation costs is not significant in the grand scheme of things. Having said that as an org I'd like the option to offer instant validation for BR 300km events in non-BP years because it saves so much admin. Its understandable that AUK might want a second level of scrutiny for 400} events but would seem reasonable (to me) to allow self validation for 300s which have more in common with a 200, i,e, an extended day ride, then the significantly longer 4-600 events which involve some night time riding and or multiple days awheel.

[Tomsk]

You can have pretty stamps put in the boxes after the event - cafe controls don't have to mean a dull validated brevet card (although I admit it is the norm).

Just got me hereward the wake card back. And it has been stamped after the event like this, but all the stamps are the same so it doesn't have quite the same effect as a controller stamped card where each controller uses a different stamp.

Well I'm sorry to hear that, but some organisers do use different stamps on each control.

Maybe point this out to the Hereward organiser? 

You're all welcome to come round my house with a few beers and stamp cards, address envelopes etc 

[T42]

The FAQs sum it up quite nicely:

http://www.aukweb.net/aboutauk/faq/#055

Gotcha, ta. They need to knock out the "de" between "Brevets" and "Randonneurs".

That's cos you're the wrong side of the Channel.

Beg to differ.

[tippers_kiwi]

You can have pretty stamps put in the boxes after the event - cafe controls don't have to mean a dull validated brevet card (although I admit it is the norm).

Just got me hereward the wake card back. And it has been stamped after the event like this, but all the stamps are the same so it doesn't have quite the same effect as a controller stamped card where each controller uses a different stamp.

Well I'm sorry to hear that, but some organisers do use different stamps on each control.

Maybe point this out to the Hereward organiser? 

You're all welcome to come round my house with a few beers and stamp cards, address envelopes etc 

I've ordered a Mini Pin 

[Somnolent]

The FAQs sum it up quite nicely:

http://www.aukweb.net/aboutauk/faq/#055

Gotcha, ta. They need to knock out the "de" between "Brevets" and "Randonneurs".

Pourquoi?

[citoyen]

The FAQs sum it up quite nicely:

http://www.aukweb.net/aboutauk/faq/#055

Gotcha, ta. They need to knock out the "de" between "Brevets" and "Randonneurs".

Pourquoi?

Because it's a franglais abomination.

[Somnolent]

Sorry - must being thick here.   
But looks to me we are talking about three french words here:

Brevets de Randonneurs.
or four:
Brevets de Randonneurs Mondiaux

where is the franglais?

[Ian H]

The FAQs sum it up quite nicely:

http://www.aukweb.net/aboutauk/faq/#055

Gotcha, ta. They need to knock out the "de" between "Brevets" and "Randonneurs".

Pourquoi?

Because it's a franglais abomination.

Well, I'm confused.

[citoyen]

Well, I'm confused.

They appear to be fairly confused themselves.

[Somnolent]

I hoped I might resolve that one by reference to the Convention de Partenariat but although the body of that agreement uses the 'de', the version sans appears in Annex 4 

BTW - I'll be happy to take on the correction of the FAQ text* should anyone come up with a definitive answer which requires it.

* or any other part of aukweb.net which is not auto-generated

[citoyen]

BTW - I'll be happy to take on the correction of the FAQ text* should anyone come up with a definitive answer which requires it.

I suspect there is no definitive answer.

Tbh, abomination is putting it a bit strongly - I've never liked that 'de', always felt it was a bit superfluous, but I've never felt it was worth commenting on until T42 raised it.

Just ignore me.

[rob]

You can have pretty stamps put in the boxes after the event - cafe controls don't have to mean a dull validated brevet card (although I admit it is the norm).

Just got me hereward the wake card back. And it has been stamped after the event like this, but all the stamps are the same so it doesn't have quite the same effect as a controller stamped card where each controller uses a different stamp.

Well I'm sorry to hear that, but some organisers do use different stamps on each control.

Maybe point this out to the Hereward organiser? 

You're all welcome to come round my house with a few beers and stamp cards, address envelopes etc 

I dug out my card from the Flatlands '15 the other day in preparation for this weekend and noticed that, whilst all the stamps were added at the arrivee, different stamps had been used for the last couple.    This was a nice touch that I didn't notice at the time.

[Somnolent]

I suspect there is no definitive answer.
Tbh, abomination is putting it a bit strongly - I've never liked that 'de', always felt it was a bit superfluous, but I've never felt it was worth commenting on until T42 raised it.
Just ignore me.

Jamming two nouns up together like that without the possessive pronoun feels somehow wrong to me.  But then I learned my French back in the 1960s and havn't lived there since the early 90s so T42, who lives in country today, maybe has a better feel for modern usage?


But on a related topic....

the poll option:
No, prefer to avoid BRM rides cos it takes too long to get the card validated
doesn't really hold up to scrutiny.

ACP have completely automated the process, the cards do not have to go to Paris, the stickers are printed here in the UK, and any delays are down to us here in the UK (exactly like they would be for a BR that does not have the so-called 'instant-validation') either with the organiser or with the validation team (who, like all volunteers, have been known to ride their bikes / have lives / go on holiday)   

[citoyen]

ACP have completely automated the process, the cards do not have to go to Paris, the stickers are printed here in the UK

You're ruining the romance, dammit! I had this mental image of the cards being posted off to some French bureaucrat in a dusty office in Paris who sits there stroking his impressive moustache and pondering each card individually, deciding whether or not to stamp it.

the validation team (who, like all volunteers, have been known to ride their bikes / have lives / go on holiday)

Outrageous dereliction of duty.

[T42]

I hoped I might resolve that one by reference to the Convention de Partenariat but although the body of that agreement uses the 'de', the version sans appears in Annex 4 

BTW - I'll be happy to take on the correction of the FAQ text* should anyone come up with a definitive answer which requires it.

* or any other part of aukweb.net which is not auto-generated

That's quite amusing. As I read it, Brevet is a noun and Randonneurs Mondiaux an adjectival phrase so the de is inappropriate.  You could just argue, though, that the brevets were created/administered by the Randonneurs Mondiaux, in which case they would be Brevets des Randonneurs Mondiaux; or you could say that doing one of these brevets made you into a Randonneur Mondial, in which case they would be Brevets de Randonneur Mondial.

The ACP's site (and every French publication I've seen on the topic) calls them Brevets Randonneurs Mondiaux, i.e. worldwide "randonneuring" brevets, so for me that's what they are.

[Ian H]

The ACP's site (and every French publication I've seen on the topic) calls them Brevets Randonneurs Mondiaux, i.e. worldwide "randonneuring" brevets so for me that's what they are.

The ACP page I linked earlier uses both forms.

[T42]

Oh well. Some write better French than others, it would seem.

[vorsprung]

As an organiser running a 400, that wants to go to bed at some point BRM is better

400/15 = 26h40   but with BRM you have 27h

HOWEVER

In the real world 400km events are always a bit more.  If they are 406km or more then the BR time is over 27h, so BRM is shorter

[frankly frankie]

Because it's a franglais abomination.

Keep it, keep it!  </brexit>

Shouldn't it be 'des' anyway?  Refer it to the Academie Francaise  (omitted accent deliberate, see 'franglais abominations')

[Somnolent]

Oh well. Some write better French than others, it would seem.

Wonder if this page had multiple authors ?   

As I read it, Brevet is a noun and Randonneurs Mondiaux an adjectival phrase so the de is inappropriate.  You could just argue, though, that the brevets were created/administered by the Randonneurs Mondiaux, in which case they would be Brevets des Randonneurs Mondiaux; or you could say that doing one of these brevets made you into a Randonneur Mondial, in which case they would be Brevets de Randonneur Mondial.

My understanding was always that doing one of these Brevets made you into a Randonneur(full stop)... in which case the Brevets de Randonneur holds up.  The international nature of the qualification would make it Brevets Mondiaux de Randonneur.

There comes a point at which it's better to just get out & ride....

[frankly frankie]

You're ruining the romance, dammit! I had this mental image of the cards being posted off to some French bureaucrat in a dusty office in Paris who sits there stroking his impressive moustache and pondering each card individually, deciding whether or not to stamp it.

You're thinking of I-Spy books  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-Spy_(Michelin)

As children spotted the objects listed, they recorded the event in the book, and gained points, varying according to how unusual the sight. Once the book was complete, it could be sent to Charles Warrell, (known as Big Chief I-SPY) for a feather and order of merit.

[citoyen]

You're ruining the romance, dammit! I had this mental image of the cards being posted off to some French bureaucrat in a dusty office in Paris who sits there stroking his impressive moustache and pondering each card individually, deciding whether or not to stamp it.

You're thinking of I-Spy books  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-Spy_(Michelin)

As children spotted the objects listed, they recorded the event in the book, and gained points, varying according to how unusual the sight. Once the book was complete, it could be sent to Charles Warrell, (known as Big Chief I-SPY) for a feather and order of merit.

Funny you should mention those - I'd completely forgotten about them until they came up in discussion on the radio the other day.

All my I-Spy books are recorded as DNF. I was never really imbued with the spirit of recording sightings of everyday objects.

[Phil W]

The choice of ride comes first.  Only really checked I have a full set of BRM rides for an SR during PBP year in 2015.  Some rides I've done were BRM in 2015 but not before or since.  Some organisers also pull their rides forward in PBP years for when you need to have done your 200, 300 etc. 

[T42]

You're ruining the romance, dammit! I had this mental image of the cards being posted off to some French bureaucrat in a dusty office in Paris who sits there stroking his impressive moustache and pondering each card individually, deciding whether or not to stamp it.

You're thinking of I-Spy books  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-Spy_(Michelin)

As children spotted the objects listed, they recorded the event in the book, and gained points, varying according to how unusual the sight. Once the book was complete, it could be sent to Charles Warrell, (known as Big Chief I-SPY) for a feather and order of merit.

Some folk run self-styled BRMs like that.

In 2007 a chum did one out of somewhere in Germany, crossing into France and back.  Instead of stamps they had questions related to what you should see at each control.  The clue for Lembach, just up the road from here, was "what land can you see?"  The poor bloke spent half an hour searching then gave up and set out for the next control.  About 10k south of Lembach he came to a panel advertising an amusement park called Didiland. He was so disgusted he jacked it in and rode home. I don't think he's had a shot at PBP since.