Bad Form?

[Kev Sp8]

Is it considered poor form to do a DIY that is largely based on an existing perm route? I have a window of opportunity this Friday but reckon I'm too late to enter the perm I want to ride (postal entry only).
Also, when riding a hilly DIY, are AAA points awarded automatically or is there a process to follow? Would like to keep my AAARTY on track!

[Whitedown Man]

I've adapted one Perm and one Cal. In both cases I emailed the route "owner" beforehand, and in both cases they replied very positively and wished me luck.

[mattc]

In your postal-only predicament, you COULD send the org an entry with some long future date. (and then enter the DIy of course).  That IMHO would put you on about the highest possible moral ground. (speaking as an Org - other opinions are available!)

[hillbilly]

Views vary amongst organisers (for instance, I've had one committee member take exception to the suggestion in the past, although that was some time ago before DIYs became as embedded as they are now and it may be his view has changed; others are more relaxed and view the route as being public property - I fall into this group, albeit prefer members to ride the perm as it cuts down on DIY organisers already heavy workloads). 

Bottom line, however, is that isn't against the rules so comes down to what you think is "in the spirit of the AUK community".  If you're worried about it a quick email to the organiser never goes amiss.

As an alternative (if possible) email/call them to ask if it is ok to send the entry in the post immediately and to ride before the card arrives by collecting receipts etc as you go around.  These can then be mailed with the completed brevet card when it arrives.  I've done this approach a couple of times with members who enter "late" into my perms (or for whom I've not sent out the card in a timely fashion).  This is at the organiser's discretion, however, and they might not permit it (or not be available due to holidays etc).

[Smeth]

I've used 80% of postie's Wonderfully Wessex 300 keeping the distance but bending the first and last 30k to my place. I've told him about it. It's a complement to his route planning and I did the Cal that year as well. If I were you I'd plan to ride the perm proper as well sometime.

Sent from my SM-J510FN using Tapatalk

[Kev Sp8]

Thanks all for your responses. In a rush of blood to the head I've entered an Andy Corless perm (NPS2A) instead. Dual ascents of Kirkstone pass, Honister, Hardknott and Wrynose... It's in the bag!
Please pray for benevolent weather next friday for me.

[Bobby]

I gave Steve p some extra cash when entering a perm as I made a diy based on one of his routes - he was very chilled about it (public roads & all) but it felt like the right thing to do

[BlackSheep]

Is it considered poor form to do a DIY that is largely based on an existing perm route? I have a window of opportunity this Friday but reckon I'm too late to enter the perm I want to ride (postal entry only).
Also, when riding a hilly DIY, are AAA points awarded automatically or is there a process to follow? Would like to keep my AAARTY on track!

I suppose it depends if you want the events - both perm and cal to survive. Im sure this will apear as s sob story, but from an organiser's point of view. I pay £1 per perm card, and allowed to sell them for £3. Someone enters online paypal take their cut, and I'm expected to supply rwo sets of SAEs etc. This leads to a garenteed financial loss.
Calender events (@£6) just about break-even, OK the free light breakfast is my call, from the residue I'm expected to do the route check, arrange with controls, run a Q&A service for A's that are already in front of them.

The easy anser is just to say, "raise the entry fee". To what? The entire AUK system is subjectively based, this makes it impossible to pitch a fee that meets the 'one size fits all'. I recall one person on this forum crowing-on about an event that had rsised its fees to the extent theyve virtually trebled in the last 3 yesrs, and went on to expess they'd happily pay £100 to enter. Theres nothing to stop them paying an excess. The same person has wuibbled over a few pence at other times - as i say, total subjectivity.

As to the IPR, auk totally reject this, which is strange, as im sure they would vigorously protect their IPR.

[Wycombewheeler]

Black sheep.

If perms are basically a loss at entering at £3 then presumably someone entering as FIT could not make things worse how does this affect whether the perms survive.

Should the rules be
Online entries gps validation no need for posting
Postal entry initial brevet sent as part of cost, if they want the validated card back they can provide the second SAE
?

Calendar events
£6 seems remarkably cheap to me. I would expect a floor at £7 and for that no provision of food. Organisers should not be at risk of losing money on events.

I recently did a 1000km event abroad for €30 this included route provision and validation only. This is the only time I have felt an audax was not good value.

On the original question I think it's reasonable if you are diverting the route to ride from home, but I'd still ask the perm owner if they object.

[Martin]

Blacksheep, if you are making a loss on perms simply increase the price for non gps validated entries to cover the SAE's; simples! (in the setup page you can specify a + or - amount for Paypal) or just increase the fee; I was only aware that DIY's had to be the same fee across the board.

I would always prefer to enter the perm rather than a DIY, especially for AAA as the climbing varies widely depending on the device, weather, shoe size of the rider etc. and I'd rather get what it says on the tin,

If the organiser was not on email and unable to either accept a retrospective postal (the card that is not the entry) or a simple OK to use his / her route then I'd go ahead as a DIY.

I've never had anyone ask to use my perms as DIY's other than to join two together (although they might just not be asking me!) I'd have no problem either way.

[BlackSheep]

Blacksheep, if you are making a loss on perms simply increase the price for non gps validated entries to cover the SAE's; simples! (in the setup page you can specify a + or - amount for Paypal) or just increase the fee; I was only aware that DIY's had to be the same fee across the board.

I would always prefer to enter the perm rather than a DIY, especially for AAA as the climbing varies widely depending on the device, weather, shoe size of the rider etc. and I'd rather get what it says on the tin,

If the organiser was not on email and unable to either accept a retrospective postal (the card that is not the entry) or a simple OK to use his / her route then I'd go ahead as a DIY.

I've never had anyone ask to use my perms as DIY's other than to join two together (although they might just not be asking me!) I'd have no problem either way.

Thank you for the advice Martin.  I was under the impression that the £3 for perms was cast in stone.

[3peaker]

My postal £3 covers me providing printed RS. My PayPal fee of £4 means I provide postage of Brevet. I email the RS, so rider prints (and provides paper). This can be fast and allows for a riders wanting to ride at short notice. After all, I can decide to ride one of my Perms with no notice, so I try to offer this advantage to riders. For Brevet return, it is up to the rider’s conscience if he/she provides SAE but not a great loss to me considering original £4. Riders do have a choice to use PP or post. I am finding PP very popular, as I think it is an easier rider option (I normally use PP for Cals!).

I am now providing gps tracks via ridewithgps, which is quite time-consuming; but as most of us use gps, it is a small way to provide improved route support. I already include an outline map of the route based on my Autoroute route design.

I have ridden most of my Perm routes in my RRTY programme, so regularly update these as necessary. I do not want to keep the superb Cotswolds, Wiltshire, Marches and S Welsh countryside to myself.

I cannot rule on riders using my routes for DIY but by providing the base for the ride, why should the DIY-organiser benefit? A lot depends how far off a rider’s home start the route might be, though with a Perm you can start anywhere on or close to the route.

[Martin]

Blacksheep, if you are making a loss on perms simply increase the price for non gps validated entries to cover the SAE's; simples! (in the setup page you can specify a + or - amount for Paypal)
Thank you for the advice Martin.  I was under the impression that the £3 for perms was cast in stone.

I've not set one up for a while but I think the proforma says £2.50; I increase this to £3 for Paypal as it covers the Paypal commission and the occasional rider who wants a brevet card posted (the vast majority of mine are validated by gps or Strava etc. link). In theory you can charge what you like I suppose

[citoyen]

prefer members to ride the perm as it cuts down on DIY organisers already heavy workloads

I hadn't considered this aspect but it's a good point.

Aside from the financial matters raised by Black Sheep, I presume organisers will want to see take-up of their events so they know it's worthwhile continuing to offer them. If everyone just does the route as a DIY, the organiser might end up assuming there's no demand and withdraw it from the listings. And might be less inclined to offer new perms too.

I've thought about offering my 200 route as a perm but I would need to make some alterations to remove the need for info controls and ultimately I'm not sure it's worth the effort. However, I'm happy to share the GPX files with anyone who fancies doing it as a DIY by GPS, or even just ride it for fun. I don't feel at all proprietorial about the route - I like it so I want to share it with others, who I hope will enjoy it as well.

[Cudzoziemiec]

If I've understood this thread correctly, when entering a perm by post you're not expected to send off SAEs, whereas you are with a calendar event. Why the discrepancy?

[Martin]

If I've understood this thread correctly, when entering a perm by post you're not expected to send off SAEs, whereas you are with a calendar event. Why the discrepancy?

you are supposed to include SAE's with both entering by post, entering by Paypal there is no facility to include the SAE unless you charge an extra Paypal fee;

even with calendar events SAE's are not always required if the rider downloads the route sheet and / or gets their card back at the finish

many perms are now validated by gps so no post no SAE no brevet card. I don't charge more or less for either type of validation / entry as it evens out

[Karla]

Is it considered poor form to do a DIY that is largely based on an existing perm route? I have a window of opportunity this Friday but reckon I'm too late to enter the perm I want to ride (postal entry only).
Also, when riding a hilly DIY, are AAA points awarded automatically or is there a process to follow? Would like to keep my AAARTY on track!

If the organiser has made it unnecessarily hard for you by going postal only, do it and consider it their problem!

[BlackSheep]

If the organiser has made it unnecessarily hard for you by going postal only, do it and consider it their problem!

I think the question needs to be asked, why have the organiser gone to postal only?  I can't think of any organiser that doesn't want cyclists to enter and ride their events. They will have made considerable investment in setting-up the perm, and as others have eluded to, it does appear disrespectful to not only the organiser, but also the diy validator.

[Martin]

If the organiser has made it unnecessarily hard for you by going postal only, do it and consider it their problem!

I think the question needs to be asked, why have the organiser gone to postal only?  I can't think of any organiser that doesn't want cyclists to enter and ride their events. They will have made considerable investment in setting-up the perm, and as others have eluded to, it does appear disrespectful to not only the organiser, but also the diy validator.

I think some organisers (perm as well as calendar) are just old school; their prerogative and (in this case) their loss

The moral is if you need a short notice 200 or AAA ride always keep a spare brevet card in the draw

[Cudzoziemiec]

If I've understood this thread correctly, when entering a perm by post you're not expected to send off SAEs, whereas you are with a calendar event. Why the discrepancy?

you are supposed to include SAE's with both entering by post, entering by Paypal there is no facility to include the SAE unless you charge an extra Paypal fee;

even with calendar events SAE's are not always required if the rider downloads the route sheet and / or gets their card back at the finish

many perms are now validated by gps so no post no SAE no brevet card. I don't charge more or less for either type of validation / entry as it evens out

My misunderstanding then. But people who use Paypal obviously have email; surely the organiser could email either a gpx or a route sheet as pdf, word, whatever for the entrant to print out, telling them at the same time that they need to send SAE if they want a card. If they're not bothered about the card, because they're not concerned about points, validation, etc, but just want a nice route to ride, then they needn't send an SAE. That way the rider saves the cost of SAEs(!) and doesn't have to worry about receipts or info Qs and the organiser saves a bit of admin but still gets the entry fee. And the rider still gets a ride and AUK has increased the amount of long-distance cycling.

[Martin]

yes but they are always bothered about validation otherwise why would they even enter rather than just going out and riding the route?

just that there are various methods of entry and validation; it all works very well almost all of the time!

[Cudzoziemiec]

Because they don't know the route but know the organiser produces enjoyable routes. Wowbagger has mentioned in the past entering audaxes and not bothering with the card cos he's only interested in riding the route in his leisurely fashion, though I don't know if any of them were perms. Might seem odd to a 'proper' audaxer but clearly happens sometimes.

[Karla]

If the organiser has made it unnecessarily hard for you by going postal only, do it and consider it their problem!

I think the question needs to be asked, why have the organiser gone to postal only?  I can't think of any organiser that doesn't want cyclists to enter and ride their events. They will have made considerable investment in setting-up the perm, and as others have eluded to, it does appear disrespectful to not only the organiser, but also the diy validator.

I think some organisers (perm as well as calendar) are just old school; their prerogative and (in this case) their loss

The moral is if you need a short notice 200 or AAA ride always keep a spare brevet card in the draw

The world would be a better place if everyone discouraged this rude 'old school' behaviour by stealing these people's routes.

[Greenbank]

Reminds me, I still need to do my "name that route based on GPX upload" website.

(You upload a GPX and it compares it against a database of known Calendar/Perm controls/tracks and tells you how much it has in common with known rides.)

Eventually it could be used to assign attributions to DIY by GPX rides to give the original organisers credit (and possibly even suggest royalty assignments...)

[RichForrest]

Re perm rides.
For instance recently I've been looking for a 100km ride from York as we're at Sheriff Hutton for the weekend later this month.
As mentioned various times on threads on here the AUK perm page has no way of seeing which routes go anyway near where you want to ride.
I can search for York and it brings up rides with no map or controls listed so I don't know if they are anyway near where we are on any part of the route.
I'd rather ride the perm over a DIY as it supports the orgs (if I knew where the route was) but as I've no idea we will likely enter and ride a DIY instead.