Beginner's Hand pain.

[Sergeant Pluck]

Hmm. Yes. Could be wrong there, but I know from my own experience that when you feel the need to rotate the bars towards you like that, it is because your body wants them to be nearer (which can be bar height, the reach, or both).

Having said that, when I have had position woes on a bike I try to simplify things by looking first at my position in relation to the bottom bracket (saddle height and fore / aft adjustment), get that right first, and then do whatever is necessary with the bars (changing stem if needed) to make the bar position work with that saddle position.

[quixoticgeek]

Hmm. Yes. Could be wrong there, but I know from my own experience that when you feel the need to rotate the bars towards you like that, it is because your body wants them to be nearer (which can be bar height, the reach, or both).

Having said that, when I have had position woes on a bike I try to simplify things by looking first at my position in relation to the bottom bracket (saddle height and fore / aft adjustment), get that right first, and then do whatever is necessary with the bars (changing stem if needed) to make the bar position work with that saddle position.

The main reason for the rotation was because of the angle of the wrist. I can't make the stem much shorter, it's already a 80mm. If you look at the first photos I showed, the saddle is also pretty much as far forward as it goes. I'm 1.7m tall, this is a small frame. I can't go much shorter on this frame, and well, bike manufacturers don't make frames smaller than this.

My next thing to test is moving the saddle backwards by approximately 10mm, as suggested by someone earlier. I'll carry the torque wrench with me on the next ride (just a light 45k shake down ride), and see if I feel the need to change things.

J

[Brucey]

lots of 70mm and 60mm stems on ebay

cheers

[Samuel D]

I can't make the stem much shorter, it's already a 80mm.

Sure you can! By about 80 mm. But don’t touch it yet.

I’d try putting the saddle back by more like 20 mm in the first instance. You don’t look like a racing snake, and I suspect from these photos that you’re carrying a fair bit of weight on your hands even while pedalling. That aggravates a load of comfort problems and makes things like the handlebar height, reach, and hood angle critical. Remove some weight, and all of those things matter much less.

It’s counterintuitive, but very often a forward saddle makes the reach feel too long. But just look at your photos: your arms are coming down at 45-odd degrees, so it’s clear there’s not a strict reach problem. If you pointed your arms straight ahead you could easily reach another 6 inches! The reach only feels like a problem (if it does) because you’re asking your arms to bear significant weight.

[quixoticgeek]

I can't make the stem much shorter, it's already a 80mm.

Sure you can! By about 80 mm. But don’t touch it yet.

I’d try putting the saddle back by more like 20 mm in the first instance. You don’t look like a racing snake, and I suspect from these photos that you’re carrying a fair bit of weight...

I was about to comment that I'd gone to great lengths to make sure my beer belly wasn't in the photos... then I read to the end of the sentence...

... on your hands even while pedalling. That aggravates a load of comfort problems and makes things like the handlebar height, reach, and hood angle critical. Remove some weight, and all of those things matter much less.

It’s counterintuitive, but very often a forward saddle makes the reach feel too long. But just look at your photos: your arms are coming down at 45-odd degrees, so it’s clear there’s not a strict reach problem. If you pointed your arms straight ahead you could easily reach another 6 inches! The reach only feels like a problem (if it does) because you’re asking your arms to bear significant weight.

20mm it is then!

J

[mzjo]

If you want to fiddle with the position, do you have access to a hometrainer? It's not as good as testing on the road but it does allow you to play with things a lot more quickly. I set up Cat's initial position like that (on the basis that if it feels right it probably isn't very wrong) and debugged Hannah's very quickly. It helps to have a friend along to observe things that you can't see while pedalling.

On a different note, does that frame come in big sizes (like 57cm)? It looks like the sort of thing we need for Hannah.

[quixoticgeek]

If you want to fiddle with the position, do you have access to a hometrainer? It's not as good as testing on the road but it does allow you to play with things a lot more quickly. I set up Cat's initial position like that (on the basis that if it feels right it probably isn't very wrong) and debugged Hannah's very quickly. It helps to have a friend along to observe things that you can't see while pedalling.

On a different note, does that frame come in big sizes (like 57cm)? It looks like the sort of thing we need for Hannah.

Unfortunately I don't have access to a home trainer, it would indeed make things simpler.

I think the frame comes in S, M, L and XL. I am 1.7m tall, and have an S. So without knowing how tool Hannah is, I'd guess "probably". Just be aware that the Genesis Vagabond can't take 50/34 road chainset, I had to go down to a 40/28 as the 50/34 hit the chain stay. Genesis doesn't mention this in any documentation I found. I really like it, I took the bike out for a bike packing trip last night, this is her with all the luggage on, on the train home:



J

[mzjo]

If you want to fiddle with the position, do you have access to a hometrainer? It's not as good as testing on the road but it does allow you to play with things a lot more quickly. I set up Cat's initial position like that (on the basis that if it feels right it probably isn't very wrong) and debugged Hannah's very quickly. It helps to have a friend along to observe things that you can't see while pedalling.

On a different note, does that frame come in big sizes (like 57cm)? It looks like the sort of thing we need for Hannah.

Unfortunately I don't have access to a home trainer, it would indeed make things simpler.

I think the frame comes in S, M, L and XL. I am 1.7m tall, and have an S. So without knowing how tool Hannah is, I'd guess "probably". Just be aware that the Genesis Vagabond can't take 50/34 road chainset, I had to go down to a 40/28 as the 50/34 hit the chain stay. Genesis doesn't mention this in any documentation I found. I really like it, I took the bike out for a bike packing trip last night, this is her with all the luggage on, on the train home:



J

Thanks Julia that's very useful to know (although I am surprised that you have an S, being that tall)

[Si S]

Another thing you may want to consider is saddle angle, if you've got a it nose down you may well be be using your arms to hold yourself on the saddle.

[chrisbainbridge]

I would say that there are three things wrong with your hands on the bars.

• 1

Your elbows are straight.  This means that the shock absorber effect of the biceps and triceps are removed and all the force of your weight and impact from the forks is felt in your hand

• 2

Your wrists are extended which puts your median nerve under stretch and increases the pressure on your nerve

• the forearms are slightly externally rotated/supinated so that the ulnar nerve/pisiform are sitting at the point of maximum impact

These three things in addition to anything else will cause problems with long distance riding and hand pain.

Almost all hand pain fundamentally has nothing to do with the handlebars.  People bulk up their bars, buy new ergonomic bars etc, when it is a problem with core strength and hand /elbow position.  If the hands did not hold the handlebar then there would be no pain so the stronger your core the better you will be able to relax on the bike.  Now obviously this is related to saddle position, etc but once that is right then the core is fundamental.

Secondly slide the hand round on the hoods so that the wrist are straight and the elbows bent about 30 degrees and you will be just about perfect.

[zigzag]

i concur with others that arms/shoulders should be relaxed and forearms more parallel to the floor with bigger bend at the elbow to absorb the shocks from the road before they start damaging nerves at the base of your palm.

[Kim]

Another thing you may want to consider is saddle angle, if you've got a it nose down you may well be be using your arms to hold yourself on the saddle.

I've always found that it's a tradeoff between genital pain and hand numbness, unless the riding position is so upright that you're fighting the wind and getting saddle sores instead.  The only way to really win for prolonged riding (where you end up with relatively little weight supported by the pedals) is the Dark Side.  Other people do seem to manage it, though.

The posts above are absolutely right about straight elbows, that's a recipe for doom.

[Brucey]

I'd comment that whilst straight elbows are highly undesirable, the cause and effect are not always clear; in particular if the weight distribution is wrong, no amount of fiddling with minor handlebar adjustments will fix the underlying problems.

By contrast if the weight distribution is better, it doesn't really matter if the handlebars are set 'just so' or not; there is little or no weight on the hands anyway.  There is almost always somewhere on dropped handlebars that offers a good enough hand position to verify if the weight distribution is improved or not; the handlebars can be set better (so you are comfy on the hoods etc) at some later date.

So my advice is (in a nutshell) to concentrate on the weight distribution (saddle position mainly) first, then sort the handlebars out.

cheers

[chrisbainbridge]

in particular if the weight distribution is wrong

Brucey, I perhaps did not state clearly enough that being centred on your saddle is paramount.  If your weight is not going directly down through your saddle then you have to keep pushing yourself up the saddle with your arms.

One good test is, can you take one hand off the bars and reach down to get your water bottle, drink and return whilst moving.

The other test is to cycle no handed.

if you cannot do these then the saddle height, position is wrong