Author Topic: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63  (Read 18939 times)

Karla

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Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« on: 23 January, 2018, 01:24:48 am »
A proposal has been published by Highways England to ban cyclists from This 12 mile stretch of the A63 going into Hull.  The proposal is viewable on the Hull Thursday Road Club facebook page.  It's also hit the cycling press, e.g. here:

Highways England wants to ban cyclists from the UK's fastest time trial course - road.cc

The fuss is because half of the stretch to be banned comprises the V718, which is well known as a fast and very popular time trial course.  The feeling is that this was quite possibly prompted by NIMBYism from local residents.  It is of course couched in the language of road safety, but the arguments are specious and don't have the evidence to back them up.  Time trialling on the course (which let's face it, is the main use of the road) actually has a very good safety record.  The road lacks many risk factors e.g. spearpoint junctions that endanger cyclists on other main roads, and despite it being probably the most heavily raced road in the country, the solitary death in the last 20 years was very much due to rider error.

I think this is an important issue to all of us, because this is an attempt to ban cyclists from an arbitrary, safe stretch of non-motorway road, basically because we're annoying and they feel like it. 

There is now a three week period to file objections, posted to the address in the linked road.cc article.  My own letter will major on the following points, which are free for anyone to plagiarise.  If you're feeling activist, I'd appreciate it if you objected too. 


1) Looking at www.crashmap.co.uk shows that the number of crashes is about the same as everywhere else in East Yorkshire.  Why this road in particular?

2) While there have been a few deaths further into Hull, on the stretch east of North Ferriby (i.e. the V718) there has been one single cyclist death, which the coroner concluded was accidental death due to the rider looking down.  Why is this stretch of road included in the order?

3) There are other steps that can be taken before implementing a drastic measure such as banning a whole user group from a road.  What measures have been put in place so far, and how successful have they been in reducing risk to an acceptable level?  For instance, what steps have been considered to calm the traffic exiting the M62 at Newport, to the east of the course?

4) As cyclists are just one user group, there must surely be other groups that are equally at risk on many of the county's roads.  Could they please tell me what other orders will be put in place to ensure their safety?

Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #1 on: 23 January, 2018, 08:04:04 am »
It's a stretch of road I know very well and often use as a driver.  The speeds are high as it's a dual carriageway and starts where the M62 ends at junction 38. Can't recall any problems at all with cyclists although I have seen time-triallists.  They tend to have very good daytime rear lights. Drivers who seriously weren't paying attention or whose eyesight was very bad would be a danger, as they would be anywhere.

WRT the death, not far from me a cyclist died in a 30 limit after hitting the back of a parked car - no witnesses and it had to be assumed she didn't see it in time.  She wasn't competing in anything.
Move Faster and Bake Things

Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #2 on: 23 January, 2018, 05:08:15 pm »
A lot of london edinburgh london riders used that road through the night..when you want to get from a-b quickly.

Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #3 on: 23 January, 2018, 05:14:23 pm »
It gets used on easter arrows as well. Pretty much empty of all traffic at 3-4 am

Ridiculous to ban, IMO.  No hard shoulder, so if traffic is heavy then it is a bit lairy, but whenever traffic is light it is fine.
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Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #4 on: 23 January, 2018, 07:01:01 pm »
Easy solution. TT between 0300 and 0500.

mattc

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Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #5 on: 23 January, 2018, 07:29:43 pm »
Easy solution. TT between 0300 and 0500.
Are you aware of the role Traffic Counts play in the CTT?
Has never ridden RAAM
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #6 on: 23 January, 2018, 08:12:14 pm »
Although the proposal is not to ban time trialling, it's to ban cycling on this road.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #7 on: 23 January, 2018, 09:35:18 pm »
We  had  better all get  writin' then I guess from the postal address up-thread  it's smail only?

Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #8 on: 23 January, 2018, 10:10:51 pm »
Easy solution. TT between 0300 and 0500.
Are you aware of the role Traffic Counts play in the CTT?

Very much so having been involved in TT events from an organising club perspective.  Also from a perspective of having a fatality during a TT event that I was helping out with and all that was involved.

Obviously my timing was a jovial suggestion.

Karla

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Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #9 on: 23 January, 2018, 10:29:20 pm »
We  had  better all get  writin' then I guess from the postal address up-thread  it's smail only?

Yes, as far as I can tell.

Graeme

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Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #10 on: 24 January, 2018, 10:57:51 pm »
http://balancingontwowheels.com/2018/01/highways-england-to-ban-cyclists-from-trunk-road/

If we are banned from riding on a road because we can't keep up with traffic - 'for our own safety' - then how long before we're prohibited from any National Speed limit road some council or motorist complains about. I've written a letter as the A63 passes through my parish and I've cycled along it without suffering ActualDethTM.

If anyone else wants to write a letter - they must be received by the 19th Feb.

Director,
Operations Directorate (Yorkshire & North East),
Highways England,
3rd Floor South,
Lateral,
8 City Walk,
Leeds,
LS11 9AT

Quote Order Title:
“The A63 Trunk Road (North Cave Interchange to Daltry Street Interchange) (Prohibition of Cyclists) Order"

Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #11 on: 25 January, 2018, 08:37:38 am »
Local article here:

http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/cyclists-could-soon-banned-riding-1111202

Police support proposal.

Poll also supporting ban.

I certainly try to avoid such roads when cycling but understand why from a TT point of view the course is attractive.  Also understand the 'thin end of the wedge' argument.

Chris S

Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #12 on: 25 January, 2018, 08:52:12 am »
It's not without precedent though - parts of the A19 are off-limits to cyclists, and with good reason.

My thinking is - whilst traffic levels are so high, there are inevitably places where cycling should be banned - and most certainly competitive cycling; I find it very hard to justify why cycle racing should happen on the public highway, even though - yes, it IS a public right of way.

However, and this is the fucker because it'll never happen; a general cycling ban should ONLY happen on a section of road if there is an alternative route for cyclists/pedestrians/horses that is at least a good a standard and route as the road they're being banned from.

T42

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Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #13 on: 25 January, 2018, 08:53:18 am »
All 4-lane dual carriageways with central dividers are taboo for cyclists here. Count your blessings and don't whisper it to H.E.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #14 on: 25 January, 2018, 09:02:00 am »


If we are banned from riding on a road because we can't keep up with traffic - 'for our own safety' - then how long before we're prohibited from any National Speed limit road some council or motorist complains about.

Not just NSL, I'm told that the council are investigating ways to get cycling banned on Cragg Vale, a 30/40/50 limit B road and the adjoining A646, somewhat ironically part of the NCN.  :facepalm:

Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #15 on: 25 January, 2018, 09:19:13 am »
http://balancingontwowheels.com/2018/01/highways-england-to-ban-cyclists-from-trunk-road/

If we are banned from riding on a road because we can't keep up with traffic - 'for our own safety' - then how long before we're prohibited from any National Speed limit road some council or motorist complains about. I've written a letter as the A63 passes through my parish and I've cycled along it without suffering ActualDethTM.
Just remember that there is not a single NSL. 60 for single carriageways. 70 for dual. 30 for built-up areas.

<i>Marmite slave</i>

Kim

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Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #16 on: 25 January, 2018, 01:49:55 pm »
However, and this is the fucker because it'll never happen; a general cycling ban should ONLY happen on a section of road if there is an alternative route for cyclists/pedestrians/horses that is at least a good a standard and route as the road they're being banned from.

Agreed.  It would be nice if it was mandatory to provide a Dutch-quality cyclepath if there wasn't an alternative minor road route of similar distance and flatness.  But we all know what would actually happen is they'd slap some magic paint on an overgrown, debris-infested footway and consider the job done.

Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #17 on: 25 January, 2018, 09:25:18 pm »
If we are banned from riding on a road because we can't keep up with traffic - 'for our own safety' - then how long before we're prohibited from any National Speed limit road some council or motorist complains about.

Ah yes, the "for our own safety" argument.

Cyclists shouldn't ride on a trunk road because of the speed of the other traffic.
... shouldn't ride on a country lane because they're so twisty and they can't be seen round the bends.
... shouldn't ride in town because there are so many cars and lorries wizzing about.
... shouldn't ride on a bridle path because they scare the horses.

These are all genuine comments from a conversation with colleagues a few years ago. If we get banned from certain roads because of public concern over our safety we'll end up consigned to the park or velodrome.
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that's not science, it's semantics.

Graeme

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Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #18 on: 25 January, 2018, 10:54:56 pm »
I've written... I wonder whether it will do any good.

Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #19 on: 26 January, 2018, 11:22:48 am »
It's not without precedent though - parts of the A19 are off-limits to cyclists, and with good reason.

My thinking is - whilst traffic levels are so high, there are inevitably places where cycling should be banned - and most certainly competitive cycling; I find it very hard to justify why cycle racing should happen on the public highway, even though - yes, it IS a public right of way.

However, and this is the fucker because it'll never happen; a general cycling ban should ONLY happen on a section of road if there is an alternative route for cyclists/pedestrians/horses that is at least a good a standard and route as the road they're being banned from.


I've some sympathy with this view - there are quite a lot of roads I don't want to ride on because of traffic volume, speed and potential driver inattentiveness, but if any group of users is to be banned we need to go back to the idea that roads and paths are for people and, consequently, require a suitable high quality segregated alternative route to be put in place alongside. This could do a lot to encourage more utility cycling amongst those less confident as well I suspect.

When the Middlesbrough section of the A19 was closed to cyclists there was concern mentioned over alternative routes for cycle commuters, but I don't think a decent alternative path currently exists. On the other hand, I have seen chaps on old and slow MTBs making their way along that section to and from work and it is terrifying. It would only take one inattentive or distracted driver and it wouldn't matter that he/she was in the wrong...

Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #20 on: 26 January, 2018, 11:23:51 am »


If we are banned from riding on a road because we can't keep up with traffic - 'for our own safety' - then how long before we're prohibited from any National Speed limit road some council or motorist complains about.

Not just NSL, I'm told that the council are investigating ways to get cycling banned on Cragg Vale, a 30/40/50 limit B road and the adjoining A646, somewhat ironically part of the NCN.  :facepalm:

Given my couple of cycling experiences across on the dark side of the Pennines, I think that car drivers should be banned in the NW

Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #21 on: 26 January, 2018, 12:50:07 pm »
This is local to me, I had an interesting discussion with some of my colleagues who live in the villages adjacent to the A63.

When I started the conversation with "Have you seen the proposal to ban cyclists etc" I was met with replies such as "About time" "Too right" As we talked further their replies were based on experiences regarding the TT around the Ferriby/ Melton interchange; one of my colleagues said she was worried about using the interchange while the TT is in progress and said she'd been verbally abused by a rider there in the past.

Their main area of concern appears to be that the TT is held on roads open to the public, I think they's be more accepting if the road was closed / better marshalled rather than an outright ban.

Karla

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Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #22 on: 26 January, 2018, 02:01:22 pm »
The locals would hardly be happy if the road was closed for a bike race though, would they? 

The local TT organisers are extremely competent and the marshalling has never been anything less than top notch when I've been on there, or when I've passed by while another race is running.  We've voluntarily placed a ban on competitors riding through or into South Cave and also on U turning on the road that leads into it - all on pain of a DQ - so as not to cause any traffic disruption there.  I appreciate your stories are mostly at the other end of the course, but what exactly are we meant to do that would make them happy, short of sodding off and ceasing to exist?

one of my colleagues said she was worried about using the interchange while the TT is in progress and said she'd been verbally abused by a rider there in the past.

Interesting.  Did you get any more detail out of her?  Whenever I've raced, I've neither had the time nor the breath to verbally abuse anyone even if I've wanted to!

Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #23 on: 26 January, 2018, 02:10:07 pm »
No, I don't think they'd really be happy about a total closure either, it was just one of the alternatives we explored.

As for my colleague getting the abuse, my understanding of it was that she'd misjudged the rider's speed and pulled out in front of him.

I don't know how best to resolve it, certainly a ban isn't the answer, I posted the conversation as an insight into how some non-cyclists are seeing it.

Re: Proposed Traffic Regulation Order banning cyclists from the A63
« Reply #24 on: 26 January, 2018, 05:30:18 pm »
As for my colleague getting the abuse, my understanding of it was that she'd misjudged the rider's speed and pulled out in front of him.

Unbelievable - basically she wants cyclists to be banned from the A63 because of her own mistake.  ::-)

Better to resolve the problem at source and hand in her driving licence.