Author Topic: Pedal go thunk...  (Read 2089 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Pedal go thunk...
« on: 25 February, 2018, 03:23:02 pm »

I have a pair of Shimano M323 pedals on my bike. When riding with shoes with a cleat on, there is a clunk when applying the power as the pedal passes the 10 o clock position. It happens if I'm on the clipped in side, or the non clipped in side. I can feel something going clunk through the sole of my foot. It doesn't happen if I pedal backwards, and it doesn't happen if I only use the right pedal... If I try rotating the cranks by hand, I can't detect the clunk.

So the question I've been leading up to is: How the fsck does one begin to debug this one? Is it Bottom bracket? is it pedal spindle? Help!

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Pedal go thunk...
« Reply #1 on: 25 February, 2018, 03:29:37 pm »
First choice would be pedal bearings, easily checked with a different pedal.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Pedal go thunk...
« Reply #2 on: 25 February, 2018, 04:09:10 pm »
pedals first for sure, but  I'd be very suspicious of the LH crank being loose on the spline in a HT-II setup. I have seen several cranksets wear so badly at this point that they have had to go for scrap.

cheers

TheLurker

  • Goes well with magnolia.
Re: Pedal go thunk...
« Reply #3 on: 25 February, 2018, 04:25:22 pm »
Oooh Sir! Sir! I know this one.  Well mebbe not,  but the first thing I'd try is making sure the pedal is tightened into the crank.  My cranky old grid used to do this on a near annual basis with M520s and it always turned out to be an ever so *fractionally* loose pedal.
Τα πιο όμορφα ταξίδια γίνονται με τις δικές μας δυνάμεις - Φίλοι του Ποδήλατου

Re: Pedal go thunk...
« Reply #4 on: 25 February, 2018, 07:29:12 pm »
What are the cranks made of?

I had that on a bike with carbon cranks.  The pedal insert was coming loose from the carbon.  Bike shop were very concerned about it as it could have led to a crash if it gave way completely so told me not to ride it.  Cannondale gave me a replacement chainset (warranty). 

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Pedal go thunk...
« Reply #5 on: 25 February, 2018, 07:40:09 pm »
What are the cranks made of?

I had that on a bike with carbon cranks.  The pedal insert was coming loose from the carbon.  Bike shop were very concerned about it as it could have led to a crash if it gave way completely so told me not to ride it.  Cannondale gave me a replacement chainset (warranty).

Shimano Deore XT chain set. So Ali at a guess.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Torslanda

  • Professional Gobshite
  • Just a tart for retro kit . . .
    • John's Bikes
Re: Pedal go thunk...
« Reply #6 on: 25 February, 2018, 07:46:14 pm »
If I had to bet - from hundreds of miles away - I'd reckon Brucey has got it. Remove and reinstall the chainset.

<Light bulb> This is your mixed transmission roadbike? You originally started out with Tiagra group IIRC. Did you fit the MTB BB when you opted for the crank change? With the necessary spacers?

Feel free to ignore me if I'm talking fluent bollocks . . .
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Pedal go thunk...
« Reply #7 on: 25 February, 2018, 08:04:37 pm »
if you lean on your bike from a side and try to move both pedals up and down (with cranks horizontal) at the same time - can you feel any play?

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Pedal go thunk...
« Reply #8 on: 26 February, 2018, 12:45:07 pm »
I have this problem with a set of M324 pedals and in my case it's definitely the pedal bearings. Presumably the M323 are a similar design internally.

As well as clunking, they sometimes stick and sometimes crunch. I've seen guides online for servicing the bearings but it looks like more faff than I can be bothered with and they're cheap enough that I'm more inclined just to replace them. For the time being, I've just swapped them for a set of flat pedals - tbh, I might not even bother going back to SPDs on that bike.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Pedal go thunk...
« Reply #9 on: 26 February, 2018, 01:30:50 pm »
I have this problem with a set of M324 pedals and in my case it's definitely the pedal bearings. Presumably the M323 are a similar design internally.

As well as clunking, they sometimes stick and sometimes crunch. I've seen guides online for servicing the bearings but it looks like more faff than I can be bothered with and they're cheap enough that I'm more inclined just to replace them. For the time being, I've just swapped them for a set of flat pedals - tbh, I might not even bother going back to SPDs on that bike.

Hmmm, that's worrying, I only replaced the bearings 1566km ago...

I've got the special tool to maintain these pedals so I may just do a service. That said I was going to use the same pedals on a new bike I'm building, so maybe I'll order a second set in advance...

Curiously cycling into work today I didn't notice it, the only difference being I was wearing normal trainers and not cleats...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Pedal go thunk...
« Reply #10 on: 26 February, 2018, 01:37:41 pm »
I've got the special tool to maintain these pedals so I may just do a service. That said I was going to use the same pedals on a new bike I'm building, so maybe I'll order a second set in advance...

I suspect that bearing lifespan for these pedals is highly variable and largely dependant on luck, so I wouldn't be too concerned if one pedal is shot after 1566km use. I've got two sets of M324s and the bearings have only gone on one out of four pedals after several years of use in all weathers. If you've got the tool, it's probably worth servicing them.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Pedal go thunk...
« Reply #11 on: 26 February, 2018, 04:31:23 pm »
after many years of wondering I think I finally found out the difference between PD-M323 and PD-M324 recently.  It turns out that in ~1997 shimano redesigned the SPD cleat slightly. They did so in a slightly weird way (for anyone, especially shimano) because they kept the same part numbers for the cleats but actually started making completely different parts with the same number on them.

The main change to the cleat was that the radius of the part that bears against the rear jaw was changed.  Newer pedal designs (starting with PD-M515 I think, but I'm not sure about all models) adopted rear jaws with a larger radius. The consequence of this is that if you use first generation cleats  with  later pedals, you get more float (and faster wear to the cleat), alternatively if you use current cleats with a first generation pedal, you get less float (about zero in fact). Folk who have tried this combination who need float quickly abandon the arrangement as unworkable.

 So PD-M323 is a first generation SPD pedal and PD-M324 is a second generation pedal, but the pedals are otherwise the same, I think. It is possible to convert a first generation pedal to a second generation pedal with some dremel tool action on the rear jaw, or perhaps by replacing it.

 BTW I have heard of tolerancing problems between the cones and the (ludicrously expensive) special tool, such that the tool won't fit over the cones, because the corner radii don't match in some cases.

My money is on the crank as being a cause of problems, but you should check out the pedals (most easily done by substitution BTW).

If the bearings come adrift the normal thing is for the LH cone to wind itself inwards due to precession (whereas the RH pedal goes slack; the difference is because the cones and locknuts are RH threaded both sides). This can  eventually cause all kinds of problems but in the short run a clunk as described is one of the less likely ones. 

Shimano don't specify a torque setting for the cone and locknut but I suggest  that

a) you torque it a bit like most other M5 threaded fasteners (NB this is a very fine pitch one) and
b) that you use some threadlock on the cone and locknut if you have the pedal apart.

If the pedal is just being adjusted, I normally don't bother with threadlock, reckoning that if problems arise they will soon be noticed (by contrast if you don't notice that your bearings need adjusting in the first place, you won't notice if they suddenly go out of adjustment, either). However if the pedal soon needs adjustment again because of precession, then threadlock is called for.

IME shimano pedal bearings using the tiny 3/32" balls can last virtually indefinitely if they are kept correctly lubricated and adjusted, but can equally  wear quickly if this is not the case. In particular the balls cannot share the load properly if the adjustment is bad, so out of the saddle efforts will fairly  quickly mangle everything, even if tapping along in the saddle might not.

FWIW I have taken a set of very worn PD-M515 just to see what would happen if I tried to save them. They had been run loose for some time so that they were worn such that the cones were not breaking up but were somewhat oval, so that (at best adjustment)  the bearing was alternately slightly tight and slightly loose as it went round. To my surprise, after about three cycles of adjustment and regreasing (with a grease that has a high MoS2 content), the bearings started to behave themselves again; in fact I'm still using them. They have not required attention for the last 4000 miles.

cheers

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Pedal go thunk...
« Reply #12 on: 13 March, 2018, 05:42:24 pm »

Today I noticed the thunk when riding in normal shoes for the first time, so decided to bite the bullet and ordered a new bottom bracket, and a new pair of pedals. This should allow me to diagnose if it is the pedals or not, and if it's not the pedals, then BB is most likely next candidate. If it's not the pedals, well I'm gonna need a set on the N+1 that I'm building anyway, and if it's not the bottom bracket, well it's €12, and I'm likely to need a new one at some point, they don't last for ever and I've already done 1600km on this one...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Pedal go thunk...
« Reply #13 on: 13 March, 2018, 06:57:53 pm »
one thing at a time, and you should be able to work out what the cause is.

Did you eliminate the possibility of a left crank that is moving around?

cheers

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Pedal go thunk...
« Reply #14 on: 13 March, 2018, 07:07:30 pm »
one thing at a time, and you should be able to work out what the cause is.

Did you eliminate the possibility of a left crank that is moving around?

cheers

Not yet, I wanted to make sure I had the parts necessary to do any work before I took the bike apart. Will put the bike up on the stand tomorrow and see what I can come up with.

J
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Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Pedal go thunk...
« Reply #15 on: 14 March, 2018, 08:17:23 pm »
Put the bike up on the stand. Rotated the cranks by holding the pedal. Grating grinding feeling... hmmm.

Rotated by crank. Smooth. Spin pedal. Eeeeeeeeew. Right the pedals screwed.

Have swapped to the new pedals, will fix the old pedal one evening. The bike is rideable again.

J
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Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/