Author Topic: Energy Calculators Needed.  (Read 5038 times)

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Energy Calculators Needed.
« on: 23 February, 2016, 08:58:01 am »
I'm doing my save money with a hot water circulation pump calcs and I'd like to know...........

How much natural gas in cubic meters is required to raise the temperature of 1 litre of water from 10ºC to70ºC ?  ???

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #1 on: 23 February, 2016, 09:11:35 am »
60 kilocalories-worth.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Wombat

  • Is it supposed to hurt this much?
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #2 on: 23 February, 2016, 01:03:41 pm »
And study of your gas bill will show the calorific value of the gas, and a bit of calculator work will give you the answer.

I should really be working, not YACF-ing, so I'll leave you to it.

Wombat, qualified energy advisor, for what little its worth....
Wombat

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #3 on: 23 February, 2016, 04:31:11 pm »
Depends on how efficient the boiler is. ie how much heat is lost up the flue.

It seems a new boiler should be at least 88% efficient. http://www.which.co.uk/reviews/boilers/article/boiler-energy-efficiency

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #4 on: 23 February, 2016, 05:19:22 pm »
It's proving to be tricky.

I've finally found out the calorific value of the gas that we're supplied at 5.5KWh/Nm3, but that may as well be in Russian.

I expect the boiler to be at least around the 87% mark, as it's a condenser.

I've been looking at wood fired gasification boilers that have 91% efficiency, which I think is incredible.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #5 on: 23 February, 2016, 05:34:45 pm »
I've finally found out the calorific value of the gas that we're supplied at 5.5KWh/Nm3, but that may as well be in Russian.

I assume that 'N' is spurious...


http://www.wolframalpha.com/ is your friend for this sort of thing.  You can ask it questions like "(60kCal / 5.5kWh/m^3)/0.87"

...which gives  0.01457m3 of gas.  Or 2.9 times the volume of blood in a typical human.

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #6 on: 23 February, 2016, 05:57:50 pm »
Splendid Kim, thanks.

I can now calculate how much money we're throwing away whilst waiting for the hot water to come through the tap before we ...do the washing up, step in the shower, wash hands etc.

My rough calculations are 16.4 cubic meters of water are thrown away by this household each year, just waiting for the hot tap to be hot.

That water has been heated once and allowed to cool down to 10ºC or even colder in an unheated part of the hot water run.

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #7 on: 23 February, 2016, 06:34:41 pm »
And it works out roughly at a shocking £250.00, which means that the hot water circulation pump will pay for itself within about 8 months.


rr

Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #8 on: 23 February, 2016, 09:03:15 pm »
Won't circulating the hot water turn the pipes into a radiator and increase heat loss, as well as providing instant hot water?

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #9 on: 24 February, 2016, 07:20:27 am »
I'm installing a new loop with a pump.

The pipe is a continuous 50m roll within a single duct and 20mm insulation all round, and as long as I insulate the joints and the short spurs coming off to the taps and shower carefully, the heat loss should be fairly small.

The run from the boiler to the kitchen hot tap is 15m and that's what I've used to calculate the energy and water loss. I'm about to plumb a new bathroom 30m from the boiler, so I reckon having a loop with a 5w pump circulating the water back to the storage tank will save a lot more in the first year than it costs to install.

The pump (Grundfos Alpha2 15-50 N 130) costs about £200 because it has to be stainless steel, but the pipe (Wavin PEX-One with 20mm insulation) was supplied FOC from a government energy saving scheme. I'll plumb it myself and the tank already has a fitting for a circulator.

But you're right it does create a long radiator which is prone to heat loss, although efforts will be made to minimise it, including running the insulated heating and hot water pipes together within an insulated duct in the roof space.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #10 on: 24 February, 2016, 07:35:49 am »
How much power will the pump use over a year?
It is simpler than it looks.

Wombat

  • Is it supposed to hurt this much?
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #11 on: 24 February, 2016, 08:06:17 am »
Can I suggest going for a thicker pipe insulation, for your pumped circuit?  I know its not that straighforward, but to avoid it becoming a big radiator as mentioned upthread, I think its worthwhile.  I think the dreaded part L may have something to say about pumped hot water circuits, but I try to avoid studying that...

That is indeed about the most energy efficient pump you can find easily, but it might still be overkill, power wise.  Not sure if they do a smaller one, but I suspect if they do, its specialist enough to escalate the price even more.

There is also the matter of the users making intelligent judgements about when to put the plug in the basin, i.e. before the water has reached the desired washing temperature, because it will soon be above the desired temp, so the cooler and the too hot water will mix to make the ideal temp.  Of course this doesn't work for showers!

I bemoan the passing of hot fill washing machines, there was a theory that the initial cold draw-off negated having the water heated, but a few moments thought shows that to be false.  The whole issue was not helped by the Energy Saving trust doing their comparisons between hot and cold fill machines, on a cycle that did not use hot fill anyway....  Although I have worked with the EST for around 12 years, I find much of their stuff inaccurate and amateurish, and poorly researched.  Their quoted figures for the amount of water used when hand washing dishes, is utter bollocks.
Wombat

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #12 on: 24 February, 2016, 10:39:53 am »
It's a standard installation in Denmark, so no part L, although I can imagine that as pumped HW circulation systems are common in most of Northern Europe, it won't be long before they become standard spec for new builds in the UK.

The Pump goes down to 3W and is what Grundfos have recommended for the installation, so I can't imagine it uses much power compared to heating and cooling and pouring the water down the drain for a 30M run of pipe.

The pipe starts with 20mm of insulation and will be bundled together in an insulated duct, so there will be another 50mm of Kingspan around the whole thing.

Btw, we suffer from some of the most expensive water, electric and gas prices in the EU.

******** Managed to get the Grundfos Alpha2 15-50 N 130 pump off ebay @£120.00 for a new one **********

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #13 on: 24 February, 2016, 01:07:55 pm »
How much power will the pump use over a year?

What I'd do is only run the pump when there's someone in a room with a hot tap (hopefully freshly heated water can fill the loop in the time it takes them to decide to use a tap).  Occupancy detection is, as ever, left as an exercise for the reader...

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #14 on: 24 February, 2016, 05:53:34 pm »
Your faith in electro gizmo wizardry is far greater than mine, so I'll probably just leave the thing to run at the minimum flow rate and see how it goes. It's not the smallest pump they do, but I think I've got as good a pump as I can find at twice the price.

As the pipe was free I might try and take the heated loops right down to the hot taps, so the water waste is zero. I'm not sure if that will increase the head of pressure or not when it drops out of the loft and rises again for the same distance. I'll have to drop it down three times, but the hot water is at mains pressure, so it should be ok.

I'm assuming if the 5 Watt rating is the minimum per hour. So if it actually uses 20 watts on its minimum setting and I run it all the time, it'll cost £50 per year or there about.

Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #15 on: 24 February, 2016, 06:30:01 pm »
Sorry, I understand not wanting to wait 2 minutes for the water to become hot at the tap, but surely this will cost money rather than save money?
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #16 on: 24 February, 2016, 06:35:34 pm »
I've finally found out the calorific value of the gas that we're supplied at 5.5KWh/Nm3, but that may as well be in Russian.

I assume that 'N' is spurious...


http://www.wolframalpha.com/ is your friend for this sort of thing.  You can ask it questions like "(60kCal / 5.5kWh/m^3)/0.87"

...which gives  0.01457m3 of gas.  Or 2.9 times the volume of blood in a typical human.

No, the N is not spurious

N is for Normal m^3, i.e at 0C and 1 atmos
S is Standard m^3 i.e. @ 15C and 1 bar
S can also be 25C in the oil industry

Then I also have to deal in mmscf (million standard cubic feet), bbls (barrels, oil) etc

Calorific values and CO2 content are published annually for a variety of purposes including emissions trading, such as here
 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/425887/2015_EUETS_CEFs_and_GCVs-April_2015_for_publishing.xls

Its not very exciting
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #17 on: 24 February, 2016, 07:07:49 pm »
No, the N is not spurious

N is for Normal m^3, i.e at 0C and 1 atmos
S is Standard m^3 i.e. @ 15C and 1 bar
S can also be 25C in the oil industry

Ah, fair enough - not a notation I've come across.  I read it as Newtons, which didn't make sense, and assumed some implied temperature and pressure standard.

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #18 on: 24 February, 2016, 07:37:56 pm »
Sorry, I understand not wanting to wait 2 minutes for the water to become hot at the tap, but surely this will cost money rather than save money?

I hope it will save money and here's my reasoning.

We currently waste 16.5 cubic meters of water waiting for the taps to run hot. That currently costs about £30 for the water and draining it away.  The water we waste has been heated and sits in the pipe which cools down to a very rough average of about 10 deg C over the year and it costs £200 to heat that 16.5 cubic meters to about 70deg C, providing I've done my sums right.

If I circulate the water continuously back to the boiler and it looses some heat ( I'm not sure how much), I'll have to spend less on gas and have minimal waste water at an electricity cost of £50 per year.

The new bathroom will be double the distance (30m from the boiler and storage tank) from the current furthest hot tap to the boiler, so I'll waste even more hot water waiting for it to reach the new hot tap and shower.

It's all back of fag packet maths, but I reckon it's near enough to see if it's going to save enough money in the first year to make it worthwhile.

Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #19 on: 24 February, 2016, 08:15:15 pm »
Are you sure abut the 16.5 waste? It seems an awful lot.

My last years total bill was for 90 cubic metres and that's for the three of us plus daughters boyfriend and garden watering.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #20 on: 24 February, 2016, 08:22:38 pm »
The heavily insulated pipe can only be a win, so seems like a good idea regardless.

Heat losses (including the electricity powering the pump) are presumably going to end up heating the space, so not a total loss.

And the pump can always be turned off, at which point it's not wasting anything other than the up-front costs.  In the absence of clever electronics, a simple time switch could be used to good effect overnight (assuming you don't need piping hot water for nocturnal loo visits) or if nobody's in during the day.


I've often wondered how much there is to be gained from a heat exchanger on the grey water.  Particularly for things like showers (I'm imagining a small tank under the bath with the cold feed to whatever heats the water looped through it).

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #21 on: 24 February, 2016, 08:51:41 pm »
The heavily insulated pipe can only be a win, so seems like a good idea regardless.

Heat losses (including the electricity powering the pump) are presumably going to end up heating the space, so not a total loss.

And the pump can always be turned off, at which point it's not wasting anything other than the up-front costs.  In the absence of clever electronics, a simple time switch could be used to good effect overnight (assuming you don't need piping hot water for nocturnal loo visits) or if nobody's in during the day.


I've often wondered how much there is to be gained from a heat exchanger on the grey water.  Particularly for things like showers (I'm imagining a small tank under the bath with the cold feed to whatever heats the water looped through it).

Probably not as much as a decent PV or solar accumulator installation.  It's all low grade heat and pretty intermittent.  5 mins for a shower?  Waste heat from a cooled bath?  Capital cost way outside any decent payback.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #22 on: 24 February, 2016, 08:59:12 pm »
The problem is that heating systems tend to be engineered by people with short hair and weird idea of what constitutes a decent water temperature.  5 minutes is hardly a proper shower...  :P

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #23 on: 24 February, 2016, 09:44:31 pm »
The problem is that heating systems tend to be engineered by people with short hair and weird idea of what constitutes a decent water temperature.  5 minutes is hardly a proper shower...  :P

5 minutes is a luxury  :hand:
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Energy Calculators Needed.
« Reply #24 on: 24 February, 2016, 10:22:17 pm »
Got to carbon-offset all that utility cycling somehow...