Author Topic: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel  (Read 20474 times)

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #25 on: 29 January, 2015, 10:24:27 am »
When my Hope disc brake stopped working it was almost completely. Putting a foot on the floor would have been as much use. I assumed it was a failure of the pads on the 203mm steel rotor. Function did return after a period of inactivity. Perhaps the fluid had overheated? This is one of the previous generation of Hope six pot disc brakes, and Thorn (who made our tandem) now say the newer Hope V2 is much better at coping with heat. Very expensive, apparently. If you haven't already done so I suggest you look at Thorn's online Raven Twin tandem brochure for some strident views on everything tandem, including brakes. 

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #26 on: 29 January, 2015, 10:57:24 am »
FWIW, I've have cantilever brakes (on a solo) fail when the compound overheated, stank of burnt rubber and just stopped working. I've worn out multiple rims from rim brake wear - and when a rim fails catastrophically it is no joke.

Cycle couriers in York had a drum brake fail when the oil in the hub caught fire from overheating.

Roller brakes fade under heavy use.

I think cable disks are the most reliable brakes out there.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #27 on: 29 January, 2015, 11:36:43 am »
I think we accept the discs can work very well on solos, but there have been problems on tandems because of the much higher forces involved. I've never had a rim brake fail, but I have had a tyre tube explode due to overheating of the rim (40mph, French Alps, change of underwear). And there is the problem of rim wear.

On our tandem the notional extra stopping power of discs is of no importance because I can lock the wheels using the vee brakes or the rear disc, even in the wet. I use the rear disc for less urgent braking simply to keep rim wear close to zero.

I honestly don't know about cable operated disc brakes on tandems.

srw

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #28 on: 29 January, 2015, 11:50:45 am »
You don't need three brakes on a tandem - our Thorn only has two, both rim brakes (top-of-the-range Shimano MTB jobs with dual compound pads) and we've never had any problems with stopping or excessive wear or hairy moments. That's despite it being a heavy steel bike with two heavy riders and having been used for a fully laden B&B tour. And me being a wuss when it comes to downhill riding. A programme of cable and pad replacement and inspection reduces the risk of sudden snappage, and there are always other options.

Our Santana (used for lightly laden riding) now has a cable disc on the rear (I think it's a Bengal with a 10" or so rotor) recommended by those nice people at JD Tandems to replace the rather clutzy cable-hydraulic combo it came with. On the front we have a mid-range V-brake operated by drop levels via a travel agent - I've never wanted anything more. We also have a parking brake on the rear (again a V-brake, operated by a bar-end lever from the pilot's bars) which I've only used a couple of times, when the clutzy hydraulics began failing because the disc pads needed a good clean.

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #29 on: 29 January, 2015, 12:18:08 pm »
disk brake front forks, heavy, rigid, = harsher ride - but I am p***ing into the wind of fashion.
Have pringled a rear disk rotor on a tandem. Solution, as up thread, lots of different types of brake.

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #30 on: 29 January, 2015, 12:25:36 pm »
If I were riding a tandem in hilly country with only two brakes I would choose rims brakes, at least until someone could convince me that a disc is reliable on a tandem on Welsh 1 in 4s. But having blown a tyre through overheating the rim on a solo bike, I would be unhappy spending too long on a front vee brake on a technical descent. That front tyre going would be unthinkable. So at the moment for me, riding in Wales, three brakes is what it takes to make me feel safe.

Thorn say a front disc on a tandem requires a very strong  fork that leads to a harsh ride. They prefer to use a springy fork and use a vee brake at the front. They also use vees at the back but offer a rear disc as an expensive optional extra. 

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #31 on: 29 January, 2015, 01:54:04 pm »
#1 for thorn - not followers of fashion.  2x V brakes + rear disc.

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #32 on: 29 January, 2015, 10:16:25 pm »
Me too, although I love the power and wet performance of discs I’m yet to be convinced of their use on any front end except MTB sus forks (and bents).
I test rode a Spa Ti Adventure a few months back expecting to love it. Sadly the front end felt awful due to the telegraph pole forks required for the brakes. For me any benefit for discs over vee’s isn’t worth the loss of comfort that a really nice fork provides.
That said if you run on something like Big Apples perhaps you could run a beefy front fork and still get a comfortable front end.
There was I recall an article in VeloVision two or three years ago about twin front discs on a tandem, might be worth searching for if you are considering discs on a tandem.

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #33 on: 29 January, 2015, 10:23:11 pm »
We use BB7 discs front and rear with 200mm rotors.
No complaints. They work really well and give plenty of confidence.
We've not done a long sustained alpine descent, but have tackled some very steep west country downhills with a combined rider weight of 150kg + 30kg of luggage.
I've not used rim brakes on a tandem, so can't offer a direct comparison.
It's great to be able to brake powerfully using just one or two fingers.
I've just procured a new solo with discs, because of the positive experience with discs on the tandem.

srw

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #34 on: 30 January, 2015, 12:45:00 pm »
JD Tandems specifically recommend against BB7s because they can overheat and bugger up the plastic adjustment thingy - there's a report somewhere online of a test of BB7s on a tandem which had to be aborted when exactly that happened.

And, for the record, I can brake powerfully with one or two fingers using rim brakes. Combined rider weight is rather considerably more than 150kg!

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #35 on: 31 January, 2015, 01:14:10 pm »
If I were riding a tandem in hilly country with only two brakes I would choose rims brakes, at least until someone could convince me that a disc is reliable on a tandem on Welsh 1 in 4s. But having blown a tyre through overheating the rim on a solo bike, I would be unhappy spending too long on a front vee brake on a technical descent. That front tyre going would be unthinkable. So at the moment for me, riding in Wales, three brakes is what it takes to make me feel safe.

Thorn say a front disc on a tandem requires a very strong  fork that leads to a harsh ride. They prefer to use a springy fork and use a vee brake at the front. They also use vees at the back but offer a rear disc as an expensive optional extra.

I have three tandems.
1. Custom Longstaff with 2 X Dia-Compe cantilevers of the non low profile variety. This is fine for unloaded riding on not particularly hilly terrain. It was bought with no intention of touring!
2. Dawes Super Galaxy 2 x cantilevers and a drum brake. This was our main touring tandem until recently. I would not carry a full set of panniers without the drum brake. We have twice had front tyre blowouts at speed when the drum was malfunctioning.
3. Thorn with two V brakes and a rear hydraulic disc brake. This is my favourite combination. I don't apply any of these brakes continuously on long descents and so far the setup has been brilliant.

I have to concur with the opinions above that the best arrangement is for three brakes. Nowadays I follow the Thorn advice on braking tandems on long descents, though this braking style does make my stoker slightly nervous. The Arai drum brake on the Dawes was really useful on long descents with a full camping load, but not useful for actually stopping.

Robert

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #36 on: 31 January, 2015, 01:48:46 pm »
Yes, I really miss the drag brake that we had on our first tandem, an early 90s Galaxy. For control on long or steep descents they are superb. But I like my Rholoff too and can’t have both.

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #37 on: 31 January, 2015, 03:43:06 pm »
Yes, I really miss the drag brake that we had on our first tandem, an early 90s Galaxy. For control on long or steep descents they are superb. But I like my Rholoff too and can’t have both.

Exactly the case with our Thorn tandem - it's one of the Raven Discoveries with a Rohloff and Hope disc. Terrific tandem, an as an aside, I am so glad we decided to have S&S couplings...

When the Arai was working well, it was really useful when carting a full camping load round the Highlands and Islands on the Dawes tandem (which accelerates astonishingly quickly downhill!).

Robert

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #38 on: 01 February, 2015, 08:17:43 pm »
JD Tandems specifically recommend against BB7s

They can't feel that strongly about it because they were the ones that sold me the tandem!

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #39 on: 02 February, 2015, 09:11:49 pm »
Has anyone decended Rosedale Chimney on a tandem?  How did your brakes cope, and what brakes did you have?

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #40 on: 02 February, 2015, 10:52:14 pm »
I'd walk down that.

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #41 on: 02 February, 2015, 10:59:30 pm »
Has anyone decended Rosedale Chimney on a tandem?  How did your brakes cope, and what brakes did you have?

Going up is far more fun - at the other side, there's a wonderful downhill to Hutton-le-Hole.


321up

  • 59° N
Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #42 on: 03 February, 2015, 01:24:39 am »
Has anyone decended Rosedale Chimney on a tandem?  How did your brakes cope, and what brakes did you have?

Going up is far more fun - at the other side, there's a wonderful downhill to Hutton-le-Hole.

I can confirm that descending that way is fine with just cantilever rim brakes.  That machine also had a stoker operated side pull rear rim brake but it was fairly useless (despite the stokers best attempts I managed to do >50mph on different decent that day).

Mr Larrington

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Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #43 on: 03 February, 2015, 09:01:28 am »
When my Hope disc brake stopped working it was almost completely. Putting a foot on the floor would have been as much use. I assumed it was a failure of the pads on the 203mm steel rotor. Function did return after a period of inactivity. Perhaps the fluid had overheated? This is one of the previous generation of Hope six pot disc brakes, and Thorn (who made our tandem) now say the newer Hope V2 is much better at coping with heat. Very expensive, apparently. If you haven't already done so I suggest you look at Thorn's online Raven Twin tandem brochure for some strident views on everything tandem, including brakes.

I had a front Hope stop working on a short sharp descent in south London on the recumbent.  By the time I was halfway back from New Cross to Heffalump normal service had been resumed and it never did it again ???
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
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Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #44 on: 03 February, 2015, 10:36:29 pm »
I'd like to introduce myself, a novice tandem user with only one tour and a few day rides to our credit. Our bike is an older "made in Sheffield" Orbit but has been fitted with Deore V brakes and a BB7.
I have been very impressed with the power and controllability of the BB7. I have considered upgrading to two, but will probably remain "single". Our carrier is of the "wheel off" variety. I have noticed that closely adjusted discs may need a slight tweak when the wheel has been disturbed and I don't want to start every ride with Allen keys in hand.
I hope its not going too far off topic to ask: How do other riders with a rear disc utilise their brakes?
I found that the BB7 rapidly became my first choice for all "normal" braking. It seemed quite logical to me, as its use led to no rim wear etc. However I have wondered if using a rear brake for most things was a bad habit. I'm delighted to see that I'm not alone in this practice.
The front V, obviously, is called on for emergencies and descents, but what about the rear one?
Our rear V currently has its own full size brake lever, giving us three independent brakes to play with. This is an approach I read about and felt to be a good idea, although the handlebar is now somewhat cluttered. On our only steep and twisty descent to date, I succeeded in bluing the disc slightly  and in getting both rims surprisingly hot. I can't imagine that using it with a thumb shifter as a sort of drag brake would have improved matters, but if only we had two discs I could happily relegate it to being a parking brake...
Or I could leave well enough alone...


Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #45 on: 04 February, 2015, 05:36:47 am »
Welcome, Dave, to the wonderful world of tandems!

I hope its not going too far off topic to ask: How do other riders with a rear disc utilise their brakes?

It depends on where the brake levers are!

On our tandem, the two rim brakes are operated by two levers on the front bars. These are our "normal" brakes, I mean they are sufficient for, say, 98% of our braking needs. The third brake is a rear disc operated from the rear (stoker's) bar. This is for us a sort of drag brake that we use only on long descends. I reckon that it would be possible to use discs as "normal" brakes, and rim brakes as "drag" brakes, but we never tried.

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #46 on: 04 February, 2015, 08:05:38 am »
I have the front V-brake and rear disc brake operated from regular bar levers, and the rear V-brake from a thumbshifter. Thorn Cycles (in their usual slightly didactic way) have an article on tandem braking.

When we ordered out Thorn tandem, we had S&S couplings fitted, which means we can transport the tandem without a roof rack. The tandem comes apart (see this blog article) and fits in the back of our Focus with its rear seat folded down, without taking either wheel out.

Robert

321up

  • 59° N
Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #47 on: 04 February, 2015, 09:09:51 am »
How do other riders with a rear disc utilise their brakes?

Our setup is disc rear, rim brake front.

To minimise rim wear on the front I use the rear disc brake for as much braking in normal conditions as I can, but this is limited by the grip of the rear tyre.  To decelerate quickly I use both brakes together.  On long/steep decents I share the breaking between the front and rear brakes to prevent overheating one or the other brake.  Under heavy breaking and steep decending the front wheel has more weight on it so the tyre has better grip, so in these conditions more of the braking power is available from the front brake.  To slow when decending at speed I first increase our air drag by sitting up, then apply the rear brake moderately, and shortly after the front break more powerfully.  On steep/long hills I release the brakes periodically to allow them to cool (either together or alternately).  I alter my braking style according to the conditions. 

Our tandem was supplied with a 2nd rear brake controlled by a bar end friction lever.  I tried this on a 1:4 decent to provide gentle drag braking throughout the decent.  It was a narrow twisty decent with a bumpy poor surface.  On a couple of occasions the rear wheel locked due to bumps and poor grip and I did not feel in control of the drag brake as I could not release the friction lever quickly.  After that experience I removed the friction lever and the 2nd rear brake.  I would only use such a brake on a steep decent if there was a lot of weight on the back of the tandem and the road surface was good.

Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #48 on: 04 February, 2015, 09:25:48 am »
Dave P

Thorn have a lot to say on the topic of tandem braking, so have a read when you have (a lot of) time on your hands. Your brake set-up is one that I would be very happy with. Using the rear disc brake for most of your braking is the best way of making your rims last a long time, and tandems have enough weight on the back wheel to make a rear brake a good stopper on flat roads or gentle hills. So, as you suggest, save the rim brakes for serious braking on steep descents or when you have to slow down fast.

With your set-up you have three brakes to share the job on long, steep hills. The first way of avoiding excessive heat build-up is to avoid unnecessary braking. So when it is safe to go fast, do so.

The second way is to brake hard at the last moment  rather than gradual braking. This applies on the hairpin roads you get in the Alps.

But on twisty, steep descents you obviously cannot let speed build up, so you should alternate between the brakes, allowing each to have periods of rest. The worst one to overheat is your front rim brake. Use it hard when you use it, but allow it to rest and cool as much as possible. Overheated wheel rims cause inner tubes to blow.

If you are uncertain, pull over and check the rims. If you can keep hold of them there is nothing to worry about. If they are too hot to hold, take a break. Let them cool. In practice few hills will require this, so be willing to do it when you feel the need.

Thorn say that front disc brakes on tandems require forks so beefy that they give poor ride quality. Others may disagree.


Re: Disc brakes vs rim brakes on front tandem wheel
« Reply #49 on: 05 February, 2015, 06:35:33 pm »
Four replies (Thank you) and four differing approaches to the task. I'm glad I didn't just ask if I was doing it right!
Its quite reassuring that my description of the technique I have been trying has generated neither hilarity nor horror. I feel free to carry on.
I had seen the "Thorn" article before, and I agree, its pretty long winded, but in my case its preaching to the converted. I've been using my car brakes in the approved manner for years, and for the same reason. Isn't it odd that brake fade has ceased to be a topic of conversation?
The main problem I have with applying this advice is lack of experience, showing as lack of confidence in knowing just how hard I can head into a corner and survive. Its one thing to find yourself and bike sliding up a grassy bank at sixteen, and another to launch self and wife into oncoming traffic at sixty.
The other area where lack of experience tells, is that of detecting that your brakes might be getting too hot - before its a little late. Experience comes at it's own pace...
I was intrigued to read that there can be problems with using v brakes as a drag. I actually thought that there might be difficulty in exerting any effective pressure with something as small as a thumb shifter. I imagine that the Arai brakes would have been less likely to lock up because they were a weaker brake in the first place.

With regard to the earlier warning about BB7 brakes, I found this:
https://tandemgeek.wordpress.com/2011/09/18/hot-disc-brake-news-or-news-about-overheated-disc-brakes-if-you-prefer/
My next disc calliper might need to be a different brand!