Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => Topic started by: Banjo on 12 September, 2017, 10:39:51 am
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Its natural we are all upset and concerned for the victims but as there is likely to be a trial of the driver and compensation claims following that I think it would be wise not to discuss the terrible incident on an open forum.
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Everybody has been very careful not to speculate about the circumstances of and possible contributors to the collision, so I don't think what we say about the rest of it could affect things much.
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And the people that really shouldn't be openly discussing things related to this incident (e.g. the event organiser) have already said they won't be commenting on it here.
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I think thus far everybody has been sensible - certainly more so than one or two commenting on the media sites. But Banjo is right - we should all continue to be careful and not hesitate to flag up anything unhelpful to the mods asap.
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Wise words, and we also needs to (continue to) avoid the conclusion jumping that so badly affects the online world. I'ts hard enough being concerned about our injured comrades without being wound up by that.
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I think the discussions so far have been useful. There are folk on the perifery of this accident who need to tell their story. There are also other folk who are concerned about the safety of night riding. The experienced riders I think are giving the right kind of assurance that it's safe.
Having now had 4 RTAs with cars at fault the bottom line for me is that you can't predict 'if' and 'if' occurs where and when. It's just a lottery.
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For better or worse Audax rides have now (hopefully briefly) entered the public domain. I've no idea what the legality in terms of notifying TPTB etc of cycling events on public roads other than TTs / RRs is but we (along with sportives / night rides for charity etc) have to be careful to avoid getting dragged into a web of red tape in order to continue what we do
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Having now had 4 RTAs with cars at fault the bottom line for me is that you can't predict 'if' and 'if' occurs where and when. It's just a lottery.
I think that is the right conclusion. But one which people find very hard to accept, as we like to think we are in control of things. So we find it hard to accept that, when it comes to being hit by cars, not only are we are not in control, we probably have a negligible amount of influence on the matter.
Believing that we are in control leads people to a range of false fixes, from helmet compulsion to christmas-tree lighting and magic high-viz to better cycling infrastructure, when we would be better to focus on the things that will make a big difference - campaigning to change driver behaviour. That might be via stricter laws, better enforcement of existing laws, public education campaigns or other means, but however it comes about, that is what will change things.
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Having now had 4 RTAs with cars at fault the bottom line for me is that you can't predict 'if' and 'if' occurs where and when. It's just a lottery.
I think that is the right conclusion. But one which people find very hard to accept, as we like to think we are in control of things. So we find it hard to accept that, when it comes to being hit by cars, not only are we are not in control, we probably have a negligible amount of influence on the matter.
Believing that we are in control leads people to a range of false fixes, from helmet compulsion to christmas-tree lighting and magic high-viz to better cycling infrastructure, when we would be better to focus on the things that will make a big difference - campaigning to change driver behaviour. That might be via stricter laws, better enforcement of existing laws, public education campaigns or other means, but however it comes about, that is what will change things.
That's a counsel of despair, and fundamentally flawed.
HK is right, it is a lottery, but you are wrong because you can influence the odds in your favour. As to the quantity or method of influence, well, everyone has their own ideas, frequently flawed in their efficacity. But each and every action you take makes a difference. Some, like attaching FRICKIN LAZERS to your bike might actually be counter productive, just don't confuse making yourself visible by hi-viz etc with making yourself invulnerable. All you can do is shade the odds in your favour.
My personal mantra is, never be where the accident is going to happen. Whether driving or cycling.
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I agree with HK in that if it is your turn then not much is going to change that. You might be able to mitigate to a certain amount, but at times you simply hope and pray. My worst was when I was flicked completely over the roof of a car and in doing so was knocked out for a short time which allowed me to be relaxed on landing. Thankfully it was a small car going very fast that T-boned me. I was lucky. Some folk are less fortunate.
Regards the original post, I believe folk have been very sensitive in their discussions on the matter and if concern is about impending legal action, well quite a few comments regarding Mr Alliston while the case was taking place and I don't believe anything posted on YACF have any bearing on future legal action outside what has no doubt been provided to the Police via statements.
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That's a counsel of despair, and fundamentally flawed.
HK is right, it is a lottery, but you are wrong because you can influence the odds in your favour. As to the quantity or method of influence, well, everyone has their own ideas, frequently flawed in their efficacity. But each and every action you take makes a difference. Some, like attaching FRICKIN LAZERS to your bike might actually be counter productive, just don't confuse making yourself visible by hi-viz etc with making yourself invulnerable. All you can do is shade the odds in your favour.
My personal mantra is, never be where the accident is going to happen. Whether driving or cycling.
Definitely it's best to be where the accidents are not, but if we think we have special skills that mean trouble always happens only to other people, we kid ourselves.
I've only been knocked off once, in broad daylight by a driver turning right out of a side street. I was wearing a bright red jacket which would have stood out well against grey buildings. The driver didn't look or didn't see. I had a fraction of a second's notice that the car was going to pull out and I was going to get hit. I could do nothing about it. I wasn't harmed so was lucky but I can't credit that to anything more than luck.
There are drivers who, at a critical moment, are not looking because they have fallen asleep, are texting, drunk, distracted, not expecting to see a bike, whatever, and if one of those is comes towards you, you are not in control!
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Definitely it's best to be where the accidents are not, but if we think we have special skills that mean trouble always happens only to other people, we kid ourselves.
I've only been knocked off once, in broad daylight by a driver turning right out of a side street. I was wearing a bright red jacket which would have stood out well against grey buildings. The driver didn't look or didn't see. I had a fraction of a second's notice that the car was going to pull out and I was going to get hit. I could do nothing about it. I wasn't harmed so was lucky but I can't credit that to anything more than luck.
There are drivers who, at a critical moment, are not looking because they have fallen asleep, are texting, drunk, distracted, not expecting to see a bike, whatever, and if one of those is comes towards you, you are not in control!
Agreed, but here's the sensitive bit. Everyone (OK not everyone) is a perfect driver, cyclist, whatever. They've been driving/cycling for years so they are GOOD. You really can't criticise people's driving/cycling (I'm lumping them together although I would say that as a group, cyclists are more aware of shortcomings) and precious few people take additional training to improve. Because, after all, you can't teach me anything useful can you? Whereas the truth is that any training that could help is worth doing.
Anyone that argues with me, and is in London, just answer: have you ever taken up the option of free 1:1 road training through TfL? (OK, OK, some here are trainers, I know. I also know they won't be arguing) Answer is almost certainly "no, because I'm not going to learn anything/I've been cycling to long/I haven't got time". Yeah, well.
You often hear drivers/cyclists say "there was nothing I could have done about it" and sometimes that may be the case. Other times, it most definitely isn't, but arguing against that begins to sound like victim blaming, which I'm really not.
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My personal mantra is, never be where the accident is going to happen. Whether driving or cycling.
I assume that hindsight is your most valued weapon in this strategy?
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My personal mantra is, never be where the accident is going to happen. Whether driving or cycling.
I assume that hindsight is your most valued weapon in this strategy?
Absolutely not. Foresight is what it is all about. If you don't know what I'm talking about (and you drive), I suggest taking an advanced driving course. You often have more options when driving but observation and anticipation is key.
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I tend to the "many drivers are incorrigible idiots / going too fast / texting / simply can't see me / Clarkson acolytes and how can I personally avoid or at least minimise the risk of them injuring / killing me?" mantra myself
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My personal mantra is, never be where the accident is going to happen. Whether driving or cycling.
I assume that hindsight is your most valued weapon in this strategy?
Absolutely not. Foresight is what it is all about. If you don't know what I'm talking about (and you drive), I suggest taking an advanced driving course. You often have more options when driving but observation and anticipation is key.
Can you say anything more specific? Your posts don't really give much away...
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My personal mantra is, never be where the accident is going to happen. Whether driving or cycling.
I assume that hindsight is your most valued weapon in this strategy?
Absolutely not. Foresight is what it is all about. If you don't know what I'm talking about (and you drive), I suggest taking an advanced driving course. You often have more options when driving but observation and anticipation is key.
And it's not always conscious. A while ago I spent a bit of time using a scooter daily round London. After a time, I realised that on an awful lot of occasions I'd ease off for no apparent reason - whereupon someone would do something *really* fuckwitted about twenty yards in front of me.
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Isnt that a bit different?
Should a car plough into one of us from behind on a dark road, I fear we may find the range of options to be rather more limited!
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The A15 is VERY straight and mostly flat.
Just saying.
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My personal mantra is, never be where the accident is going to happen. Whether driving or cycling.
I assume that hindsight is your most valued weapon in this strategy?
Absolutely not. Foresight is what it is all about. If you don't know what I'm talking about (and you drive), I suggest taking an advanced driving course. You often have more options when driving but observation and anticipation is key.
Can you say anything more specific? Your posts don't really give much away...
Without wanting to turn this into a lecture or soapbox, advanced driving training involves constant observation (and commentary to prove it) on everything going on around you, on and off the road, front and back, and modifying your driving according to that observation. For example, one of the driving techniques that transfers well to the bike is, where you have seen a potential hazard you cover the brake, with a foot in a car, with your hands on the bike. In the car that means you decelerate, on a bike it cuts down your reaction time dramatically. Another useful cross discipline technique is Mirror Signal Manoeuvre, with Mirror turning into "look" on a bike. Yeah, that bit every learner gets taught but - apparently - few drivers stick to 100%. For sure, many people will use some of these techniques but turning it into a system makes it more valuable.
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Without wanting to turn this into a lecture
I think that ship has sailed my friend.
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Its natural we are all upset and concerned for the victims but as there is likely to be a trial of the driver and compensation claims following that I think it would be wise not to discuss the terrible incident on an open forum.
It would. I know that road well.
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Its natural we are all upset and concerned for the victims but as there is likely to be a trial of the driver and compensation claims following that I think it would be wise not to discuss the terrible incident on an open forum.
Indeed.
Following conversations with the families of the victims, I have been asked not to divulge names or to comment on this terrible incident, which I am of course respecting.
In due course I shall be submitting an accident report to AUK.
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have you ever taken up the option of free 1:1 road training through TfL?
I didn't know it existed, but have now signed myself up for a session next week.
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Its natural we are all upset and concerned for the victims but as there is likely to be a trial of the driver and compensation claims following that I think it would be wise not to discuss the terrible incident on an open forum.
Indeed.
Following conversations with the families of the victims, I have been asked not to divulge names or to comment on this terrible incident, which I am of course respecting.
In due course I shall be submitting an accident report to AUK.
+1
And hopefully the audax/YACF community will respect and support those sentiments.
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Indeed.
Following conversations with the families of the victims, I have been asked not to divulge names or to comment on this terrible incident, which I am of course respecting.
In due course I shall be submitting an accident report to AUK.
Apart from being actually hit by a car, being the organiser for an event on which something untoward happens is probably the next worst thing! I'm sure we all hope you are coping ok with the extra stresses and time demands that this will have inevitably caused you.
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Indeed.
Following conversations with the families of the victims, I have been asked not to divulge names or to comment on this terrible incident, which I am of course respecting.
In due course I shall be submitting an accident report to AUK.
Apart from being actually hit by a car, being the organiser for an event on which something untoward happens is probably the next worst thing! I'm sure we all hope you are coping ok with the extra stresses and time demands that this will have inevitably caused you.
+ 1
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Tomsk .. you have my supportive thoughts for you and your family handling the fall out from this ghastly accident, as you have both the legalities to cope with as well as the emotional links with the riders and their families.
I appreciate that if the families do not wish to have names disclosed.. so be it.. but could you let us know how those in hospital are doing.. how serious were their injuries , and how are they doing? They may not be individuals that I know , but they are likely to be names that I recognise .. so even if they are not named , I still feel very involved in supporting them and wishing them all the best as they start the recovery process.
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Tomsk .. you have my supportive thoughts for you and your family handling the fall out from this ghastly accident, as you have both the legalities to cope with as well as the emotional links with the riders and their families.
I appreciate that if the families do not wish to have names disclosed.. so be it.. but could you let us know how those in hospital are doing.. how serious were their injuries , and how are they doing? They may not be individuals that I know , but they are likely to be names that I recognise .. so even if they are not named , I still feel very involved in supporting them and wishing them all the best as they start the recovery process.
I echo the first of sentiments.
The second is private - not for disclosure.