Author Topic: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach  (Read 2960 times)

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Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« on: 07 September, 2017, 11:55:29 pm »
Tonight's prom. He played Book 1 from Das Wohltemperierte Klavier. Wonderful!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b093m78b
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Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #1 on: 08 September, 2017, 12:20:08 am »
My god he makes those pieces look - and sound - so easy! Some of them are fiendishly difficult.
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Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #2 on: 08 September, 2017, 10:20:05 am »
Brilliant wasn't it.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

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Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #3 on: 09 September, 2017, 05:39:09 pm »
It was indeed! It has inspired me to try to learn the rest of Book 1. I know a few of them - mostly the preludes because they tend to be easier - at least, that's my impression. I have been trying out number 24 in B minor. Bach's harmonies in that are mind-boggling. They make perfect sense when Schiff plays them but for some reason they sound less logical when I do - and I think I am playing the right notes.  ;D

I hope the BBC make that prom one of their "stickies" - it is in the same league as Yo Yo Ma playing all the cello suites a few years ago, and I think they can still be listened to at will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu9MDqGhIak

It's on Youtube rather than Iplayer, but the BBC clearly don't object to it being there.
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Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #4 on: 09 September, 2017, 09:07:35 pm »
Yo Yo Ma was only two years ago!

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Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #5 on: 11 September, 2017, 02:10:02 pm »
True! "Two" is in the lower range of "a few".  :P
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Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #6 on: 11 September, 2017, 02:52:53 pm »
This was shown on BBC 4 several years ago:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003IP2XYU/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=35VXLW3XTEUVD&coliid=IXZXR8O4KUUU8

Some great performances. I wish they would show it again or I might have to buy it.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #7 on: 13 September, 2017, 09:23:59 am »
I have to post a slightly contrarian view.

Firstly, I am not sure why anyone would want to perform or listen to 24 pretty much unrelated pieces in quick succession, somewhat like a piano Audax 200, but with much higher concentration :).  Especially when the musical quality of each one is fabulously dense.  Speaking personally, my brain is not up to paying the attention that Bach's pieces deserve in such quick succession.

Now Bach wrote some of the finest music that demands to be played with total musicianship and technical excellence.  This in itself is a non-sequitar in today's world of recording and on demand playback, if you've just played the finest performance ever then how can it be done again?

All that said, there are some fine moments in Schiff's performance and some great technical mastery.  I enjoyed listening but felt emotionally cold.  It would have been well worth attending.

Now Glenn Gould's recordings consistently make me cry, both in wonder at Bach and Gould, and often in frustration.

After listening to the Prom, I listened to Schiff's Goldberg Variations, again good but doesn't pass the tear test.

Listening to this on catchup forced me catch up (sorry) on BBC downloading:

1. The Android iPlayer Radio App now downloads, but only keeps it available for 30 days after broadcast
2. get_iplayer works fine to either download as an m4a or piping through ffmpeg to get an mp3.  Good music and fun in the Bourne Again Shell - what could be better!

I generally miss the point of having video for classical music, as I enjoy it and concentrate better with eyes closed.  Unless you want to see what the pianist is sitting on, or what instruments the wind section are using, but that all detracts from the perfomance (IMO).

Thanks for raising the topic!



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Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #9 on: 17 September, 2017, 06:36:57 pm »
Vengerov is superb. Haven't heard him for a while.
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Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #10 on: 31 December, 2017, 04:55:58 pm »
I have been having a long think (3 months' worth on & off!) about PlugIn's post above. Very thoughtful and thought provoking.

I have been wondering for a long time why it was that Bach restricted his keyboard output (as opposed to his specifically organ output) to just a 4-octave range. The 48 preludes & fugues, the French & English suites, the 2 and 3 part inventions, all are restricted to just the 4 octaves C to C, in which Middle C (260 hertz approx) is in the centre, and he does, in most pieces, use the entire range, or close to it. The harpsichord, which I had assumed to be the instrument he was aiming at, has a bigger range than this. Normally they are at least 5 octaves. Then I bought a score of the partitas, and suddenly there we are with a bigger range! Why?

Well, thanks to Dez's Christmas present to me, I now know the answer - insofar as there is a definitive one! Much is surmised because hardly any of Bach's output was published in his lifetime and much has been copied longhand before being published much later. The answer is that they were aimed at the clavichord. This is a small instrument with very little volume to its sound. The implication here is that hardly any of Bach's keyboard works were written with the intention of being played in a concert hall. Some of it was teaching material. The 48 Preludes and Fugues were to demonstrate "equal temperament", hence one in each major and one in each minor key, in each book (apparently Book 1 was written in the 1720s, book two about 20 years later). Any performances would have been quite intimate gatherings in small rooms.

That brings us to another problem - tuning: you had to tune your own instrument! It is still possible to buy a clavichord - Morley's of Lewisham sell them and used to make them - I don't know if they still do - and the instrument comes with a tuning spanner. So the keyboard player would also have had to be able to tune his instrument to equal temperament before playing it. In that sense there is a connection between 48 preludes & fugues. The idea is that the instrument, when in tune, is OK for all of them and does not need to be retuned when switching from one key to another.

Performing any of these pieces in front of a large audience is therefore a very long way away from Bach's intentions. Playing the whole lot in one sitting on a Steinway D274 in front of 6000 people in a city some 700 miles away from Leipzig? Ludicrous! But, as PlugIn suggests, because it can be done, in the 21st century it has to be done. With regard to Schiff's performances, I think I regard him as technically very correct but, as PlugIn says, somewhat lacking in emotion. I think, from the pianist's point of view, it is a very useful yardstick to measure oneself against. All the top piano teachers these days suggest listening to virtuoso performances and, indeed, recording oneself play to see if what you produce is in itself worth listening to. With modern technology, it's easy. For under £70 you can buy a really good digital stereo recording device that is capable of writing .wav and .mp3 files to a SD card. And there is Youtube. How learning the piano has change hugely even in my lifetime!

Oh, the partitas were, apparently, written for harpsichord. That explains the greater range and, it appears (I haven't tried learning any yet!), the more virtuosic demands on the performer. Bach probably did have public performance in mind when he wrote these. They were, I understand, the last keyboard works he produced.
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Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #11 on: 02 January, 2018, 03:56:36 pm »
I have never tuned my own piano. Always paid someone else, who has passed exams and things, to do it for me.
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Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #12 on: 03 January, 2018, 06:02:28 am »
We should create a new thread for tuning issues - i.e. a tuning fork?

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Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #13 on: 03 January, 2018, 09:25:55 am »
I do possess one (A440) but I think most tuners these days use an app on their phone.
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Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #14 on: 03 January, 2018, 09:39:41 am »
I just bought a Boss TU3 but I don't think it would work with a piano.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

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Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #15 on: 03 January, 2018, 05:30:13 pm »
I didn't mean that the tuners do every note from the app - just start off with A, or middle C, or whichever note they start with, and then tune in the same way.
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Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #16 on: 03 January, 2018, 06:43:18 pm »
I just bought a Boss TU3 but I don't think it would work with a piano.

I still use a TU-12h, bought in NY about 30 years ago.  I´ve installed the Boss app on my phone but the real thing seems to be a lot smoother. 

It really helped me get to grips with playing a clarinet (almost) in tune.  Clarinets are such a collection of acoustic compromises that some bad intonation is inevitable.

Now maybe we could use those tuners in wheel building, hmm.....

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Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #17 on: 03 January, 2018, 09:23:20 pm »
I just bought a Boss TU3 but I don't think it would work with a piano.

I still use a TU-12h, bought in NY about 30 years ago.  I´ve installed the Boss app on my phone but the real thing seems to be a lot smoother. 

It really helped me get to grips with playing a clarinet (almost) in tune.  Clarinets are such a collection of acoustic compromises that some bad intonation is inevitable.

Now maybe we could use those tuners in wheel building, hmm.....

Just to pretend we are part of a cycling forum for a moment, there is a lovely scene from Belleville Rendezvous in which the grandmother is building a wheel and when she taps the spokes to test their tension, she plays the C minor prelude from Book 1 of Das W K.
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Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #18 on: 04 January, 2018, 05:51:23 am »
A brief hint to the admirers of Andras Schiff.  He has said that he will play Book 2 of the 48 in the 2018 Proms.  It's counter-intuitive to have a solo piano in a place as huge as the Albert Hall but the lighting plus the collective concentration of the audience actually did produce a spell-binding effect.

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Re: Andras Schiff plays J. S. Bach
« Reply #19 on: 20 May, 2018, 10:58:02 pm »
My son has just told me that he has bought me two tickets for Schiff's performance of Book 2 on 29th August. It's a 9.30 kick-off and the prom goes on for 145 minutes without an interval. I have booked some accommodation at the Imperial College halls of residence. Under £100 for a night in London! That's not bad. I only hope our bladders can withstand the length of time we will be listening to Schiff, otherwise there might be some Water Music...

A brief hint to the admirers of Andras Schiff.  He has said that he will play Book 2 of the 48 in the 2018 Proms.  It's counter-intuitive to have a solo piano in a place as huge as the Albert Hall but the lighting plus the collective concentration of the audience actually did produce a spell-binding effect.

I would respectfully disagree. We had the discussion last year about whether it is appropriate to play Bach's preludes & fugues all in one sitting. Given that Bach almost certainly had a clavichord in mind when he wrote them (so far as I know, almost all of Bach's keyboard - as opposed to organ - works fit into a 4 octave span. The partitas are an exception to this. They were written much later than most of his stuff and are specifically for harpsichord) then there is no way that they would have been played in a concert hall even in his day. They were for an intimate group in a drawing room and no more. (Just realised I posted much the same in January...)

Schiff played on a Steinway D274 last year. That's a 9' piano, easily capable of filling the Albert Hall with sound. It can compete on level terms with a full orchestra and still be heard. He might have gone one better and used a Bösendorfer Imperial, which in 9' 6" and has something like 9 extra keys at the bass clef end of the instrument just in case you need them. Bear in mind that Yo Yo Ma played his solo cello there for Bach's cello suite a few years ago. I doubt if that sound carried all the way up to the gods...
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