Help with frame related questions

[Torslanda]

Looks like I'll need a pair of the 600 or Dura Ace AX levers. Anyone got anything in the loft/shed/bits box? 

[croissante]

Hi Dave,

An old frame of yours (maybe 10-15y old? I don't know) was recently passed on to me by an old cyclist who no longer needed it. I've just gotten around to building it up, and was wondering if you could tell me a bit about the frame? I had initially fingered the frame as a light tourer, but looking at it all componented up it strikes me now more as an audax/randonneé bike. Any chance you can clarify? Regardless, I have been told that it was used to tour France, so it should fit my purposes, but it'd be interesting to know!

Secondly, could I ask about frame clearances/space for mudguards? I have built it up with 28c Schwalbe Marathons (+Greenguard), and at the rear stays, there is about 2mm of clearance at the lowest, where there is a protrusion of the brake bridge, which I assume is a mudguard mount of some kind (it is threaded). Not even enough clearance for Crud Roadracers! Is this simply a matter of choosing a smaller tyre, or am I missing something? I reckon that with a different rear brake (the current one only clears the tyre when you tension the cable) and by filing off the mount that I could fit a Crud mudguard in the gap. Thoughts?

In any case, I gotta say: this is possibly the nicest frame I've ever ridden, and I've only done about three miles on it so far! The ride is ultra smooth, and I'm barely feeling bumps in the road... (it's also nice to be on a frame that isn't two sizes too big for me)

Frame (click through for bigger):


Rear clearance:


Mudguard mounts (?)

[Torslanda]

<sticks nose in where it's not wanted>

Marathons have a deep tread - the 25mm have a gigger profile than some 28s. I once tried to fit some 28s on a Carrera Gryphon and couldn't get the damned wheel back in! May I suggest you look at some 25mm Durano Plus or similar. It looks like you'll get those in with room for some proper gaurds . . .

[croissante]

<sticks nose in where it's not wanted>

Marathons have a deep tread - the 25mm have a gigger profile than some 28s. I once tried to fit some 28s on a Carrera Gryphon and couldn't get the damned wheel back in! May I suggest you look at some 25mm Durano Plus or similar. It looks like you'll get those in with room for some proper gaurds . . .

Reckon 25s would do for touring, though? Was planning on taking this bike on a tour of the west coast of Scotland somepoint this summer, I'll be needing tyres of a suitable width!

In any case, if all fails I could pick myself up a pair of these, which may fit. Either that or get some VO metal mudguards and cut/file them similarly into submission.

[JohnR]

I bought a pair of these for my giant ocr3 just fitted but rear one was short @ seat tube by about 3" or so and not enough clearance on 23mm gp4000's. Took them off in the end.

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Looks like I'll need a pair of the 600 or Dura Ace AX levers. Anyone got anything in the loft/shed/bits box? 

Just got back in the workshop today, busy doing other stuff all weekend. I cannot find the lever bosses I know were there !! I have been reorganising the workshop storage and have moved stuff around. I have no doubt they will turn up one day.
The link provided by jsabine looks like a viable option. You will be able to re tap the boss to M5 but dont use a drill press recipe for disaster if the drill snatches. The other thing to do is grind the point off the M5 tap or you will put a large dent in the down tube under the boss. (dont ask how I know this)
Your other alternative, as you have already mentioned, is to find some AX levers. It looks like a halfway decent frame so worth doing something with

Cheers

Dave Yates

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Hi Dave,

An old frame of yours (maybe 10-15y old? I don't know) was recently passed on to me by an old cyclist who no longer needed it. I've just gotten around to building it up, and was wondering if you could tell me a bit about the frame? I had initially fingered the frame as a light tourer, but looking at it all componented up it strikes me now more as an audax/randonneé bike. Any chance you can clarify? Regardless, I have been told that it was used to tour France, so it should fit my purposes, but it'd be interesting to know!

Secondly, could I ask about frame clearances/space for mudguards? I have built it up with 28c Schwalbe Marathons (+Greenguard), and at the rear stays, there is about 2mm of clearance at the lowest, where there is a protrusion of the brake bridge, which I assume is a mudguard mount of some kind (it is threaded). Not even enough clearance for Crud Roadracers! Is this simply a matter of choosing a smaller tyre, or am I missing something? I reckon that with a different rear brake (the current one only clears the tyre when you tension the cable) and by filing off the mount that I could fit a Crud mudguard in the gap. Thoughts?

In any case, I gotta say: this is possibly the nicest frame I've ever ridden, and I've only done about three miles on it so far! The ride is ultra smooth, and I'm barely feeling bumps in the road... (it's also nice to be on a frame that isn't two sizes too big for me)

Frame (click through for bigger):


Rear clearance:


Mudguard mounts (?)

Having been responsible for some 12000 plus frames a frame number would be useful to narrow the possibilities 
I looks like one of our Audax style frames built for 49 drop brakes and max 25 tyres. Those tyres you have fitted are too big !!
The frame number is under the BB shell and on the steering column.
I am afraid the componentry means nothing as we never built "standard" bikes every one was different and the bits will have changed over the life of the bike.

Cheers

Dave Yates

[croissante]

Having been responsible for some 12000 plus frames a frame number would be useful to narrow the possibilities 
I looks like one of our Audax style frames built for 49 drop brakes and max 25 tyres. Those tyres you have fitted are too big !!
The frame number is under the BB shell and on the steering column.
I am afraid the componentry means nothing as we never built "standard" bikes every one was different and the bits will have changed over the life of the bike.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Hi Dave,

Cheers for the reply- that description seems to fit the frame perfectly; the brake pads (on 47-57mm calipers) are hovering just near but not quite the top. Guess I'll have to get me some new tyres if I want to fit guards! Here's hoping that 25s will stand up to some light touring.

Regarding the frame number, I see a number on the BB shell, but nothing on the steering column. It reads 10796, and near it, embossed rather than engraved there seem to be the letters either E or F and a 1. Not sure that latter part is relevant!

[Bicycle Repair Man]

10796 is a Super Randonneur made as a custom frame in Feb. 2001. It may have been sold as a bike but I dont have that info. At the time that model was made for 49 drop brakes and 25mm max tyres as default unless the customer specced deep drop and 28s It was actually one of a pair made for Husband and Wife.

Cheers

Dave Yates

[croissante]

10796 is a Super Randonneur made as a custom frame in Feb. 2001. It may have been sold as a bike but I dont have that info. At the time that model was made for 49 drop brakes and 25mm max tyres as default unless the customer specced deep drop and 28s It was actually one of a pair made for Husband and Wife.

Cheers

Dave Yates

Hi Dave,

That's definitely the one- I have seen its sibling frame, as that has found a new home as well. Cheers for the help- should be able to get this bike built up correctly!

[Torslanda]

Looks like I'll need a pair of the 600 or Dura Ace AX levers. Anyone got anything in the loft/shed/bits box? 

Just got back in the workshop today, busy doing other stuff all weekend. I cannot find the lever bosses I know were there !! I have been reorganising the workshop storage and have moved stuff around. I have no doubt they will turn up one day.
The link provided by jsabine looks like a viable option. You will be able to re tap the boss to M5 but dont use a drill press recipe for disaster if the drill snatches. The other thing to do is grind the point off the M5 tap or you will put a large dent in the down tube under the boss. (dont ask how I know this)
Your other alternative, as you have already mentioned, is to find some AX levers. It looks like a halfway decent frame so worth doing something with

Cheers

Dave Yates

Thanks for looking, Dave. I think I'm sorted with AX kit so no mods required.

Fingers crossed - we'll find out when the stuff I've bought lands. There's quite a bit on that *bay if you do a little research.

Was pleasantly surprised to find that the concealed cables actually run through full length conduits in the frame. Feeding cables through is a doddle.

Thanks again

luv'n'stuff

John Baron

[Torslanda]

Just fitted a pair of 600AX gear levers which arrived on Monday. In two minds now as to whether to source a full set - which would mean using the odd pedals - or just buy generic 600 (6200) stuff and build it piecmeal.

L'eroica, anyone?

[Plug1n]

which would mean using the odd pedals

I should have a pair of adapters for AX to normal pedals somewhere, if you want.  Knocked about but servicable.

[Torslanda]

which would mean using the odd pedals

I should have a pair of adapters for AX to normal pedals somewhere, if you want.  Knocked about but servicable.

Thinking that to do it right it should be full AX . . .

[Nick H.]

Hi Dave, I'm a former attendee of your course and I have a silly tyre-kicker's question which you may wish to ignore! Tom Donhou is offering TIG welded off the shelf frames in 850 Pro Team in 3 sizes. They are for disc brakes only. £2,295 gets you a frameset with Enve forks, a Chris King headset and a nice paint job. My question is: where is the money going??? I have a feeling your price would be about £1,000 lower. (Maybe if he gets loads of orders he'll ask you to build them!)

http://road.cc/content/news/130322-donhou-bicycles-signature-steel-dss1-disc-equipped-frameset-launched

P.S. I seem to remember you telling me that you can build a frame in a day. Have I got that right?

[steve Anglesey]

Hello Dave I wonder if you can give me some advice please?
I have a 2013 dawes galaxy. I noticed a couple of weeks ago that underneath one of the rack bosses the paint had come off and there was some rust there. I put some nail varnish over it after reading it suggested. I've now taken off the bolt that holds the rack in the boss and removed the rack and found that there is further paint damage and small amounts of rust around the opening to the boss. I take it this is what is referred to as surface rust. I don't know the difference between surface rust and other forms of rust. Is using nail varnish good enough to stop it spreading? Thank you Steve

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Hi Dave, I'm a former attendee of your course and I have a silly tyre-kicker's question which you may wish to ignore! Tom Donhou is offering TIG welded off the shelf frames in 850 Pro Team in 3 sizes. They are for disc brakes only. £2,295 gets you a frameset with Enve forks, a Chris King headset and a nice paint job. My question is: where is the money going??? I have a feeling your price would be about £1,000 lower. (Maybe if he gets loads of orders he'll ask you to build them!)

http://road.cc/content/news/130322-donhou-bicycles-signature-steel-dss1-disc-equipped-frameset-launched

P.S. I seem to remember you telling me that you can build a frame in a day. Have I got that right?

Now then,

Sorry about the long delay, I used to get an e-mail to tell me something was here for me to answer, I've probably pressed the wrong button and unset that feature.

Headset and forks would retail at about 400, but that is just a guess, so that leaves around 1900 for the frame 853 Pro Team is not cheap and Tig Welding thin steel is a skill in its own right on a par with all the other frame building methods, if it is done right. Think Lightspeed, Lynskey etc. Tom is based in London and  has all the associated costs. He can charge what the market will stand, if priced too high the frames will not sell. I am currently building a similar frame, fillet brazed, which is around 1400. but I live in the wilds of Lincolnshire with very little in the way of overheads  . However an article is priced some will say its too expensive, I find this with my courses but I have a very long list of potential students so it cant be that wrong.
I used to be able to build a bog standard horizontal top tube lugged frame and forks in a day but nowadays I rarely build such a beast.

Cheers

Dave Yates

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Hello Dave I wonder if you can give me some advice please?
I have a 2013 dawes galaxy. I noticed a couple of weeks ago that underneath one of the rack bosses the paint had come off and there was some rust there. I put some nail varnish over it after reading it suggested. I've now taken off the bolt that holds the rack in the boss and removed the rack and found that there is further paint damage and small amounts of rust around the opening to the boss. I take it this is what is referred to as surface rust. I don't know the difference between surface rust and other forms of rust. Is using nail varnish good enough to stop it spreading? Thank you Steve

Hi Steve
Same comment as above, I need to look into why no notification.
"suface rust" is exactly what it says in the tin. If you expose any non stainless ferrous metal to the elements it will start to oxidise quickly. It becomes a problem if nothing is done about it and the oxidisation eats into the metal. Your problem is minor and you have done someting about it, I prefer Humbrol model paint or smooth hammerite. Just keep an eye on it, if it comes back clean the rust off with some sort of abrasive cloth/paper and touch up with paint of some description.

Cheers

Dave Yates

[Foghat]

Hello Dave, I originally posted the query below in its own thread, but Samuel D pointed out it would be worth posting in your frame-related thread too.  Thanks!


With the standard of road surfaces in Britain declining so alarmingly from an already dire state, I've decided my Roberts commuter needs to be modified to take up to 35mm tyres (with mudguards).  This will also allow me to fit Continental Top Contact Winter Premium tyred wheels on dodgy days - these are nominally '37mm', but I understand they come up narrower than this.  And my 30mm Schwalbe Winters will fit without rubbing annoyingly.

Currently it just about takes 28mm tyres with Shimano BR650 brakes - it's their Audax frame with oversized downtube (Chas had been experimenting with the oversized tubing and I was willing to give it a go in a frame that was custom-built to my specified dimensions and fittings).

The frame transfer states 'Columbus Nivacrom', but of course Roberts were noted for mixing tubesets, so I don't actually know what individual tubes are made from.  Not sure what model Nivacrom it is - the transfer is under a chain-catcher which obscures the lower section of it, but I understand there are/were different types.  I'll look under the chain-catcher if it makes a difference.  My chainstays in this frame are 16.5mm wide horizontally and 31mm tall at the rim - I wonder if this helps identify the tubing?

I reckon by moving the brake bridge up 10mm and the chainstay bridge forwards by 8mm I will get plenty of clearance for the desired 35mm tyres.  This will necessitate switching to Tektro R559 deep-drop brakes, which are 55-73mm, compared with '47-57mm' for the BR650s.  45mm mudguards will squeeze in too, but I'll need a new fork.

So I'm wondering whether the seatstay and chainstay tubing will be up to a re-brazing (by an expert, of course), or is Nivacrom too thin or delicate to risk it (if that's what the stays are) - what do the frame tubing experts here think?

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Now then Mr Foghat,

First off, the concept of a"set" of frame tubes is a bit amorphous !! Reynolds, Columbus et al manufacture a range of tubes some of which are put in a box and called a "set" (this is called marketing) Any decent framebuilder building a custom frame will choose each tube to do the job required of it. Personally, I have never bought sets of tube for the last 30+ years and I assume Chas has done the same sort of buying.
To do the work you are talking about is not a problem, any competent framebuilder will be able to do this. If Iwas doing this job I would take the bridges out cold ie cut them out and file off the excess, then braze new bridges in the rquired position. I have done this sort of job hundreds of times with no probs.
You do need to bear in mind that if you fit longer forks then the BB height will increase, the head and seat angles will decrease and the standover height will increase, the frame pivoting about the rear axle. However if the increase in fork length is smallie less than 10mm, then these alterations will be relatively insignificant.

Cheers

Dave Yates

[Foghat]

Thanks Dave.  Good to know that re-heating the stays close to where they were initially brazed shouldn't compromise their integrity. I assume that's what you're saying.....if done competently?

Yes, the geometry changes are pretty minor, and easily manageable.

Re 'tubesets', I was really just alluding to Roberts' penchant for mixing tube manufacturers in a frame, rather than any concept of actual boxed 'sets'.

Thanks again.

[Roy]

I am looking to buy a summer road bike with close clearances. The question is should I go for aluminium or carbon? What are the advantages/disadvantages of these materials over steel?

[mrcharly-YHT]

Aluminium is cheaper and sometimes lighter.
Carbon is usually expensive and lighter. Carbon soaks up vibration and bumps better than aluminium.

don't obsess over the material. Test ride some bikes and buy the one that feels right.

Close clearances are pointless, IMO.
I suspect you are associating them with snappy handling that feels fast.

[chickendrumsticks]

Hi Mr Yates sir, new member here with a frame related question which I hope you and the other generous contributors can help me with.

I've just purchased a bike.  Its a Revell (Madison supplied, poss. early 80s) but bears no model name.  Its not a Romany tourer or a Ritmo (what the heck is a "Ritmo" anyway???) as far as I can tell from the few Revell posts on this forum.  Its made in 531c throughout with "close clearances" and no mudguard or other eyes. Has Campy ends and is a 22" frame. Full Shimano groupset (except for some nice Cinelli bars and stem).  Shimano BB and headset too. Usual head tube and seat tube badges and "Revell" on the downtube. And no discernible frame number but the initials(?) AE are stamped on the BB underneath.  Could this be the builder.

I wonder if its a "Rapide"?

Most striking is the colour scheme which looks original - a combination of red,blue, yellow with chromed driveside chainstay and rear ends!  The panels are "faded" into each other.  If I knew how to post a pic I would do that to aid identification(DONE!). Any wise and profound thoughts or insights?  I understand some Revell frames were made for Madison by some very esteemed builders back in the day - I believe your good name was mentioned along with that of Mercian!  Here's hoping you may be able to help me.  Thanks in anticipation...new pics of distinctive?? lugwork which are nicely tapered and pierced.

Pics here...https://www.flickr.com/gp/141591263@N05/703BHC

p.s. it turns out that "ritmo" is Spanish for rhythm - so I guess if fitted with right sort of saddle it could be an efficient form of contraception

[Bicycle Repair Man]

Now then Mr chickendrumsticks,

Apologies for the delay in answering, lors of problems, dont ask!!!
At Steels we made a few frames forMadison/Freewheel in the 80s If it were one of ours it would have a three or four digit number on the bottom bracket shell and fork column. The BB shell is a Haden and the AE is probably a works batch or item identification. The lugs are Prugnat S4s .These components were standard "go to" items for most builders of the era.Sorry I cant be more specific, nothing else on the frame tells me who might have built it.

Cheers

Dave Yates