Yet Another Cycling Forum
Off Topic => The Pub => The Sporting Life => Topic started by: andyoxon on 29 May, 2013, 10:01:19 pm
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By accident I caught the final 20 min of the England:Ireland friendly. Looks like the long ball forward still isn't out of their system. ::-) Oh and Rooney was playing, for some reason... Those TV screen advertising hoardings are irritating too.
Anyone else enjoy the viewing experience? ;)
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Watching sport is, more than ever, to prostitute oneself to big business. I can't stand that constantly moving advertising. The only sport I watch to any degree these days is the rugby and it really irritates me when the players come up covered in ink after a scrum on the RBS logo.
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I can't judge the overall match though I suppose we should be glad that it went off peacefully (I think?),given the back-story. I was only able to watch the first twenty minutes but was pretty disappointed by the skills on display: Johnson going up with Shane Long, with his eyes shut, head down, no attempt to clear the ball and seemingly intent only on making a back for Long - do they teach them that?; Oxlade-Chamberlain receiving a great ball twenty or thirty yards out, goal at his mercy and he manages to put it three goal heights into the crowd. Do they just do fitness training now? I would have thought three or four hundred shots a day practice would not be too much to expect on those wages. >:(
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What would it take to make an Engalnd performance satisfactory? I'm guessing nothing less than a 10 nill drubbing of Brazil would do it ::-)
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Nah, it's impossible Bobb. If England won everything and convincingly there would still be those who grumble. It's sport ffs, unpredictable and all the better for it. Just look at Coventry City, Wimbledon and Wigan in relatively recent FA Cup finals...
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What would it take to make an Engalnd performance satisfactory? I'm guessing nothing less than a 10 nill drubbing of Brazil would do it ::-)
I'm not criticising an England performance in particular, Bobb, just citing a couple of examples of what I consider to have been poor play from people we might reasonably expect to do better. I just like to see good football.
Much prefer the white and black (navy blue?) kit to the all-white, though!
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Peter, it rather sounded like you wanted error-free football.
How boring would that be?
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If you have realistic expectations then the England performance was acceptable.
We're "2nd division" in terms of World Football.
Our top-5 ranking is based on a ridiculous formula that has no foundation in reality.
I was expecting a dour performance with a lack of skill, imagination and technique, that's what I got.
If you expect a top-5 performance then you will almost always be disappointed by our lack of skill, imagination and technique.
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What amazed me is that these are supposedley professional, ultra fit athletes. And yet imediately after last nights match the squad jumped on a plane to Brazil!
What about ther post-match recovery. Flying immediately after a match is possibly the worst thing you can do. What is Hodgson and the FA thinking?
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If you have realistic expectations then the England performance was acceptable.
We're "2nd division" in terms of World Football.
Our top-5 ranking is based on a ridiculous formula that has no foundation in reality.
I was expecting a dour performance with a lack of skill, imagination and technique, that's what I got.
If you expect a top-5 performance then you will almost always be disappointed by our lack of skill, imagination and technique.
Can you please inform the sports editors of all the national newspapers. It would certainly be refreshing to see some of that realism from them ::-)
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Top 5 is about right.
Top 4 would mean getting to the Semi-Finals most of the time but we don't.
Top 5 means we usually get as far as the Quarter-Finals; that's about right.
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What amazed me is that these are supposedley professional, ultra fit athletes. And yet imediately after last nights match the squad jumped on a plane to Brazil!
What about ther post-match recovery. Flying immediately after a match is possibly the worst thing you can do. What is Hodgson and the FA thinking?
Depends on the plane ... with maybe 30 staff onboard, plenty of room for a stroll about between the massage tables. Flying is not in itself harmful.
[just heard that Brazil's stadium is "unsafe" ... bloody 2nd-rate footballing nations ... ]
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Peter, it rather sounded like you wanted error-free football.
How boring would that be?
I don't need error-free football; I've supported Newcastle all my life. Boredom is born of familiarity. Familiarity with error-free football is unlikely. That said, Barcelona's performance against AC Milan in their return leg was as error-free as I'm ever likely to see, I think and it didn't bore me a bit! And it didn't last!
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I've supported Newcastle all my life.
whereas I've been a fan only since the early '70s
:thumbsup:
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England are weird as a team. Premiership football is very very good on the whole and is a fast modern game but take the players from their Premiership teams and put them in an England shirt and half the time they revert to playing like England did in 1966 and that just won't cut it anymore. The defense is usually OK though, if it wasn't we would get stuffed more often.
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I probably am unrealistic in my expectations, despite 'friendlies' often being an uninspiring format of the game. I think management are still vainly hoping they'll find some magic England super hero formula for Rooney. Hopefully we'll be able to see some Brazilian skill next game; long-ball-loss-of-possession will hammer England. All said, I still hope that England can begin to shine and show some consistently good form in some way.
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England are weird as a team. Premiership football is very very good on the whole and is a fast modern game but take the players from their Premiership teams and put them in an England shirt and half the time they revert to playing like England did in 1966 and that just won't cut it anymore. The defense is usually OK though, if it wasn't we would get stuffed more often.
If they played the way England did in 1966 I think most supporters would be very happy.
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England are weird as a team. Premiership football is very very good on the whole and is a fast modern game but take the players from their Premiership teams and put them in an England shirt and half the time they revert to playing like England did in 1966 and that just won't cut it anymore. The defense is usually OK though, if it wasn't we would get stuffed more often.
If they played the way England did in 1966 I think most supporters would be very happy.
No they wouldn't be as everyone else has moved on hugely since then. Those tactics really don't work anymore.
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What happened in 1966? Did something happen? You'd think if it was something good it would have been mentioned since.
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Top 5 is about right.
Top 4 would mean getting to the Semi-Finals most of the time but we don't.
Top 5 means we usually get as far as the Quarter-Finals; that's about right.
That's a very selective way of looking at rankings though. You don't play many teams in the finals of tournaments & many team that could beat us never make the finals. If we are 5th then I'd say we were joint 5th with about 20 other countries (which makes us, by definition, joint 20th).
Joint 20th sounds about right to me.
Can you name 4 teams that England have beaten in the finals of the World Cup and European championships over, say the last 20 or so years? You would imagine there'd be a list of 20-30 right?...wrong. You'll struggle to find even 4 (you'll struggle even harder to find 1 of any significance).
As for the reason why the England team don't seem to replicate the quality of the Premiership...that's an easy one, the England team has all the talented foreigners removed from it.
I'd probably look fairly reasonable if you surrounded me with the likes of Suarez, Van Persie...etc. That's why James Milner, Gareth Barry and Stuart Downing get to wear an England shirt. They are basically Championship players surrounded by foreign talent at club level.
At England level they are surrounded by James Milner, Gareth Barry and Stuart Downing.....that's fairly depressing I imagine.
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What happened in 1966? Did something happen? You'd think if it was something good it would have been mentioned since.
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Because of that defeat Scotland needed to win both games against Italy to qualify, three points would see a play-off similar to four years earlier. Italy spent most of the match frustrating the Scots, until with two minutes left on the clock, Baxter played a perfect pass through the Italian defence for Greig to score the winner and give Scotland a famous victory. A month later Scotland travelled to Naples, and injuries and clubs refusing to release players meant that Scotland only had 14 players to play with. The Italians ran out 3-0 winners and Scotland's hopes of playing in England the following summer ended.
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O:-)
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Watching England v Brazil, first half.
How many England players would make the Brazil team? None.
How many Brazil players would make the England team? Most of them.
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And Rooney playing a lone role up front - that's worked well in the past, hasn't it? ::-)
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Watching England v Brazil, first half.
How many England players would make the Brazil team? None.
How many Brazil players would make the England team? Most of them.
Oxlade-Chamberlain joins Owen (x2), Terry (x1), Rooney (x1 x2!) and Lampard (x1) as the only England players to score against Brasil this century.
Top five in the world, my arse, but catching the second half of this game is the first time in years I've felt like I've been watching England play with some spirit.
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Watching England v Brazil, first half.
How many England players would make the Brazil team? None.
How many Brazil players would make the England team? Most of them.
Joe Hart possibly.
You have to remember that some of the England squad don't make their domestic sides on a regular basis, never mind the Brazilian national side.
Anyway, it's about beating Brazil when it matters (not that I think Brazil are necessarily the team to beat any more).
Message to England back four - Please stop passing the ball back to the keeper so he can hoof it aimlessly forward. If the ball needs hoofing aimlessly then just do it yourself, you're nearer our strikers so, in theory, you should be capable of more accurate hoofage.
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Second half when England decided to press a bit more and try attacking they seemed to do a lot better. I think they sat off far too much troughout the game though and let Brazil play.
The other issue the back four needs to deal with was why they got opened up so frequently from long cross-field balls.
Still, flying to the other side of the world and drawing with Brazil at home is not exactly a bad result :)
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Not about the full England team, but the U21's. Isn't Stuart Pearce a breath of fresh air when interviewed after a match? No hiding behind platitudes, just says it as he saw it. "We were awful" "the best team won" etc. Well done.
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Yes, I admire Stuart Pearce. He was the author of one of the greatest penalty misses of all time and is brave enough to live his life in public.
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Well Stuart needs to put on a brave face again because the U21's have just been knocked out of the tournament after 2 abject displays.
It seems our lack of talent and imagination with a football runs deep. Perhaps because of the lack of opportunities for U21 players to get a game in the Premiership.
German style coaching upheaval me thinks. Time to change things at grass-roots so we have some talent coming through in 15 years.
That's what the Germans did (and their definition of a crisis was getting beaten in finals).
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Yes, Paul, I agree. I wasn't admiring Stuart Pearce for his abilities as a coach but for his courage in staying in the public eye!
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Well Stuart needs to put on a brave face again because the U21's have just been knocked out of the tournament after 2 abject displays.
Make that 3.
Played 3 lost 3
Italy, Norway and Israel.
No goals from open play.
Hopefully the media and some crazed fans will have had their expectations set for the next 10 years and accept that getting to a semi-final (never mind winning a trophy) should be seen as a major triumph. Even beating a top 10 team should be seen as a triumph in any major finals.
Then everyone can go to the finals and have a party instead of a war. Use the Irish as a perfect example. Overjoyed if their team win a couple of games but, even if they don't , no harm done, just carry on with the party.
Beautiful.
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Meanwhile the Spanish U21 team win the Euro Championship. Somewhat predictable really.
A sign of things to come? A new wave of Spanish talent set to win it all?
I'm just surprised that the Germans didn't make the finals.
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Now our Under-20 team has been knocked out of a tournament without winning a game.
England have now gone 16 matches without a victory at the Under-20 World Cup - their last win was in 1997
From top to bottom it seems we can't beat anyone of any significance when it matters, in the finals. We get overjoyed when we win a friendly (against a country you couldn't find on World Map and with the population of Preston) but the truth is we just lack that quality to get into the "first division".
Someone older than me can probably tell me when we last beat a top 10 side in the finals of a competition but I'm beginning to think Alan Shearer may have been playing.
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Not quite. England Beat Argentina in the 2002 World cup in Japan. Forwards were Michael Owen and Emile Heskey
To show how long ago that was, from the starting line up only Ashley Cole and Rio Ferdinand are still playing for England.
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Brazil looking good against Spain, in Confed Cup on now, BBC...
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Not quite. England Beat Argentina in the 2002 World cup in Japan. Forwards were Michael Owen and Emile Heskey
To show how long ago that was, from the starting line up only Ashley Cole and Rio Ferdinand are still playing for England.
You're right. That's my forgotten World Cup..I was on my LEJoG ride during it. I had a late start on my final day, so I could watch England - Brazil. Not only a late start but in a bad mood as well.
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From top to bottom it seems we can't beat anyone of any significance when it matters, in the finals. We get overjoyed when we win a friendly (against a country you couldn't find on World Map and with the population of Preston) but the truth is we just lack that quality to get into the "first division".
I think Preston's got a bigger population than Tahiti. I'm not sure we'd beat Tahiti.
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In case anyone didn't notice, it seems our Women's national side went out of the Euros with a whimper as well.
At least it shows a level of consistency across all ages and sexes of our national game. We're basically "average" at football.
The German Women's team won the Euros for the 6th consecutive time...SIXTH CONSECUTIVE TIME !!!
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Yawn. England top of the group though...
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Yawn. England top of the group though...
Some English people travelled to Kiev to watch that.
I was annoyed that I'd travelled to my living room to watch it.
Roy Hodgson called it "a quality performance". I lost all respect for him in that moment.
Greg Dyke (brought us Roland Rat but is now somehow Chairman of the FA) said "I don't think we'll win the World Cup in 2014 but we should target winning it in 2022".
Brilliant insight and comments, I hope he's getting paid many millions of pounds a year for that.
Next thing he'll be telling us that the Pope is a Catholic and we'll all be living on Mars by next Summer.
The England football team are, and have been for some years now, bloody awful.
Anyone who ever criticised David Beckham's ability should be hanging their head in shame when they watch his replacements. I'd still pick him in favour of some of the talentless numpties playing last night.
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I think that it is quite clear that the coaching staff, the 'manager', etc cannot be the problem as England are as average as ever regardless of who is in charge. It seems clear to me that the problem is the lack of English talent.
England have a far higher number of apparently quality players plying their trade in the Premier League. The problem to me appears to me to be that when players go on international duty they simply don't gel as a team. Why? Is it the English psyche whereby a Man City player still sees an Man Utd player or a Tottenham player still sees an Arsenal player primarily an an opponent perhaps?
I have an idea, a long term idea. We buy Kettering Town and fill it with English players. As they gel and work their way up the leagues we buy better players but always keeping the squad entirely English. As Kettering become successful the best English talent will want to play for them. Eventually Kettering Town will be champions of England, Europe and the World... O:-) :thumbsup:
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"Anyone who ever criticised David Beckham's ability should be hanging their head in shame when they watch his replacements. I'd still pick him in favour of some of the talentless numpties playing last night."
Nobody who criticised David Beckham's ability need hang their head at all. Many of the current team or nowhere near as good as him. I, too, would still pick him, probably in goal. England did have injury problems, thuogh that never seems to bother other teams half as much as it bothers England. On that subject, it seems to me now that the money of the Premier League has teams in such thrall that managers withdraw players from England duty, saying they are injured, in order to save them for the league games.
I'm just glad I was out buying a bike! I hope that won't prove to be a mistake, too!
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The problem to me appears to me to be that when players go on international duty they simply don't gel as a team. Why? Is it the English psyche whereby a Man City player still sees an Man Utd player or a Tottenham player still sees an Arsenal player primarily an an opponent perhaps?
No, it's because, at club level, every England player is surrounded by properly talented players from oversees. At England level they are surrounded by people like Ashley Cole, Kyle Walker and Paul Lambert*
*I say surrounded by, what I mean is, stood motionless 50 yards away and therefore requiring a 50 yard "hail-mary" pass which they will subsequently fail to control..
It's the simple maths of it. You add 11 average players together and divide by 11 and you get average.
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"England's ball retention and passing sums up why we'll never get anywhere in these competitions. How is it possible that so called professional footballers in an England shirt suddenly find the concept of the ball at their feet about as comfortable as a glowing orb of 9 million degree lava?" [...] There's no point England trying to be Spain. But obviously there is a middle ground that involves, y'know, being able to pass and control a football.
DTLive
Agree with this bit in DT; there were some really bad attempts at passing, and general losing possession, but at least they held Ukraine at bay somehow.
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Indeed, now to beat Montenegro. And if Poland beat Ukraine then our job is pretty much done (depending on the actual scores in those games Poland would then need to beat us by 7 or so goals in the final game to usurp us).
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That's a very interesting use of the word "usurp".
Usurp
Verb
Take (a position of power or importance) illegally or by force.
Take the place of (someone in a position of power) illegally; supplant.
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"England's ball retention and passing sums up why we'll never get anywhere in these competitions. How is it possible that so called professional footballers in an England shirt suddenly find the concept of the ball at their feet about as comfortable as a glowing orb of 9 million degree lava?" [...] There's no point England trying to be Spain. But obviously there is a middle ground that involves, y'know, being able to pass and control a football.
DTLive
Agree with this bit in DT; there were some really bad attempts at passing, and general losing possession, but at least they held Ukraine at bay somehow.
Because Ukraine are crap.
Gary Lineker to his credit said:
"England and Ukraine played some good one-touch football. England had one touch, then Ukraine had one touch, then Engand had one touch...."
FIFA have just released the new rankings. England slip to #17, their lowest ever position and, in my opinion, about correct.
That means we'd be doing well to get into the quarter finals of the World Cup and all the fans should be very happy if we do.
Of course, if we beat Montenegro, a country with a population less than an average city, all the fans will think we are World beaters again.
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That's a very interesting use of the word "usurp".
Usurp
Verb
Take (a position of power or importance) illegally or by force.
Take the place of (someone in a position of power) illegally; supplant.
I think Master Greenbank is well aware of this :)
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Assuming that football teams get the manager they deserve, Roy Hodgson is definitely the man for the job ::-)
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Re: FIFA rankings and England: England slipped to 27th in 1996.
The rankings are not really a good reflection as they were as high as 3rd only 13 months ago and they haven't got any worse since then, have they ... ? :)
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English footballers account for less than a third of all the minutes played in the Premier League, a State of the Game study for BBC Sport has found.
Roughly translated to "only 31% of English Premier League footballers are actually English".
I expect that will fall into the 20s fairly soon because foreign players are generally more talented at any given price.
It will start to resemble ancient Rome, where the locals paid to watch slaves from across the Empire battle it out for their pleasure.
Ask yourself how many big foreign clubs import English players to their leagues. It usually makes the front page when it happens.
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Well, we're there.
I anticipate a summer of unfulfilled hope.
And frustration.
Bring it on ;D
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Disappointment deferred till next summer. Gotta say though, they played alright.
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Saw nothing of it and heard about 5 minutes on the radio. Can't wait for the group stage ignominy or penalty shooting execution of next summer.
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England qualify and France have to go into teh playoffs. Who'd have thought.
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Yes I know but it's still my favourite sport and I always enjoyed playing football more than I enjoy cycling; I think it's the team aspect.
Thinking about the last two England games, I think England have good attacking options but I can't see Gerard and Lampard/Carrick being competitive in Brazil. I don't think either of them can run fast enough any more. Gerard in particular has had players run through mid-field and get ahead of him. That never used to happen. One run tonight by a Polish player reminded me of Peter Reid trying and failing to keep up with Maradonna in the '86 World Cup (2nd goal).
It appears that Lampard can't play two hard games back to back and Carrick doesn't seem to be able to dominate the mid-field. Roy Hodgson needs to really look at his options here. They're very limited (I can't think of many alternatives beyond Wilshire and, perhaps, Phil Jones) but I think he needs to be very ruthless and to try out other players in the friendly games between now and Brazil. Young and full of running will have to be the way, especially as the temperatures in Brazil could well be 30 deg. C.
Defence ? Baines and Cole are world class, Smalling is good but he'd be better as a centre half. Neither Jagielka nor Cahill dominate as much as England need. Right back ? Glenn Johnson, Kyle Walker seem quite flaky. Late run by Micah Richards ? Let's hope so.
Attacking ? Rooney still seems to be a step ahead of most of his team mates although his execution tonight didn't match his ideas. Welbeck works hard but he seems to miss too many (although he got a bit of a kicking tonight) and Sturridge needs to work on using his other foot. Townsend needs to work on his 1st touch but otherwise he's showing the way forward for Walcott and Lennon; if there's space, push the ball past the full-back and then cross it or get fouled. And keep doing it. Unless you occasionally come inside.
Townsend also has other work to do: he looks like a gazelle when he's going forward and an (arthritic) elephant when he's going back to cover.
Hodgson has too few world class players: Hart, Baines, Cole, Rooney. Sadly two of those play in the same position.....
Quarter finals, semis of we're lucky/get it together.
My opinion only and I'm an MU fan and I would have sold Rooney in August, so what do I know ? ;D
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Baines is twice the player that Ashley Cole is.
Cole has always been quick but he's fairly useless with a football at his feet.
I don't think it's accidental that our two best performances have coincided with Baines and Townsend on the left.
You can't leave Rooney out but he needs to cut out some of his flicks, they almost never work and we lose possession.
Possession is everything at the next level. We've been as good in possession during the last two games as we have been for over a decade but we still give it away cheaply too many times. If you give the ball away cheaply, say 20 times, to Spain, Argentina, Brazil or Germany, then they'll turn it into 4 or 5 goals.
On the whole though, two pleasing games, pressure games as well. The good news is we have a long time now for the younger players to develop and for that core England team to gel together more. I'd stick with that core of 13-15 players who played in the last 2 games and tweak round the edges. Cole can be Baines's backup now I think. Baines proved himself.
John Terry can come on after the final is over and help lift the World Cup (if he's not too busy winning Wimbledon).
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Re: FIFA rankings and England: England slipped to 27th in 1996.
The rankings are not really a good reflection as they were as high as 3rd only 13 months ago and they haven't got any worse since then, have they ... ? :)
I note England haven't been seeded for the finals in Brazil. Probably means they'll be meeting the likes of Brazil or Spain early on...
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The seeding process is a bit bizarre. England aren't brilliant but Switzerland get seeded and Italy don't ... Its based on the current FIFA rankings which don't really reflect long term form.
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The seeding process is a bit bizarre. England aren't brilliant but Switzerland get seeded and Italy don't ... Its based on the current FIFA rankings which don't really reflect long term form.
Which it shouldn't!. It's currently based over 4 years, weighted towards more recent performance. Remember, apart from the last 2 games, England has been pretty crap recently!.
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It wasnt England that I thought bizarre but Italy :)
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All is explained:
The vagaries of FIFA ranking (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25134584)
The Dutch would have been ranked had they not played and won a friendly against Indonesia. Just playing the game reduced their FIFA average no matter if they won or lost.
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Hmmm, looks like we only need a team hotel for the Group stages.
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Hmmm, looks like we only need a team hotel for the Group stages.
Like England for the Rugby World Cup 2015 then! :-)
Hmmm. England v Italy 2am on 14 June in tropical heat. Anyone fancy an all nighter? :-)
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Hmmm, looks like we only need a team hotel for the Group stages.
The pilot who flies the team out there must make a decision whether it's worth keeping the engines running or not.
"Ha ha ha..we're playing a country called "U R Gay"" - Homer Simpson.
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Sam Allardyce is England manager.
Why?
I only remember "Big Sam" being brought on board to help struggling teams fight for survival.
Oh..now I see.
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Allardyce will stabilise England into Quarter-Finalists, then get sacked for Bilic.
Scotland will remain, well, nothing.
Motherwell will win the cup.
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Words fail me. The spin from the FA is" What a bargain ,half a million quid less than we paid Woy."
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Happy 50th anniversary!
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Happy 50th anniversary!
Yes, it's 50 years since my parents met for the first time. They're divorced now though.
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How to throw a win away.
How not to waste too much time watching England play - record the match and skip through last few minutes at speed...
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How to throw a win away.
Score first, then concede? I think you'll find that's how most draws come about, Andy!
You're a proper England fan, glass half-empty :P
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All draws are "take the lead, then concede" or "concede, then equalise", it depends on point of view.
With England, it's not so much a glass as a paper cup.
With Scotland, your liquid of choice goes straight into the hand. Pink shirts for God's sake!
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In any event watching a international football friendly tends to be an act of last resort.
I wonder if Southgate can make a real difference, or if deficiencies in English national team 'setup' are simply too great.
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In any event watching a international football friendly tends to be an act of last resort.
I wonder if Southgate can make a real difference, or if deficiencies in English national team 'setup' are simply too great.
English players aren't skillful enough. There's nothing in our youth setup that will change that. The results-driven business means it's easier to buy skill from abroad than to train it yourself, especially since any skillful young player will be snapped-up by a top side just to keep the bench warm.
Our average players who DO get to play in the Premiership are made to look much better than they actually are by their foreign colleagues.
The only positive I can take from it all is that Scotland are actually even shitter.